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Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




they talk about how obrien is a combat superstar and probably insanely good at leading ppl into fights and then they give command of the defiant to literally anyone but him despite using his expert testimony as a theoretical defiant commander to make worf look bad (which is easy to do)

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Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




Hodgepodge posted:

I think at some point O'Brien being supercompetent became part of the joke alongside "O'Brien must suffer" episodes being an explicit part of his everyman persona.

It's very out of place in terms of what Starfleet nominally is, but DS9 in particular is very much about neoliberalism.

basically the entire cast of ds9 is supercompetent at their respective fields except worf and sisko which i guess is the opposite of tng where i feel like picard was the superhuman and everyone else was alright, except worf

sisko is my favourite captain but whatever his skills other than leadership are, they arent really used other than him cooking, beating poo poo up and occasionally talking about ship design

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




Sanguinia posted:

Sisko was promoted to a strategic command position after DS9 fell yeah. He was second to Admiral Ross, who was portrayed as one of the top command guys for Starfleet during the war.

That said, I always thought Sisko's strongest skill was his political acumen. The way he handles the constant schemes and crises that plague Bajoran and Cardassian space, how he navigates the 'cold war,' with the Dominion, how he handles the tightrope of his role as Emissary, it all takes a political mind that I would argue even outstrips Picard's.

i dunno, he fumbles it pretty badly a few times at the start. he even drops the role as quickly as possible. earlier captain sisko is pretty short-sighted. i dunno if s1 sisko would have figured out so easily that the dominion was going to attack when they started mining the wormhole

one of the reasons i really like ds9 more than tng is how consistently and believably the characters develop. every character except maybe dax has considerable growth thats revisited a lot through the series, and in her case its fair because shes 300+ years old, her growth is like over a week once merged

edit: that worf's growth is limited to him realizing what a failure he is and how much he sucks at everything is still growth

Scope posted:

Pretending that makes me double-angry the spider isn't on DS9.

Verviticus fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Jun 8, 2020

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




do the changelings actually frame sisko? i thought it was just layton doing some magic that the show-writers didnt want to elaborate on because even sisko asks "how'd you do it" and layton replies "does it matter"

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




when i was a kid i hated kira because she was just like, an emotional religious violent person to me, but revisiting the series like 20 years later as an adult she was one of my favourite characters because of everything you said. i actually find it kind of hard to categorize the cast of ds9 over one another except worf and dax who is just kinda boring

i like viewing worf as an examination of how if you combine cultural aspects of human and klingon you get someone who is extremely bad at both and yet because hes so unique both empires cant help but keep promoting him even as he racks up catastrophic failure after failure

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




as per the thread title id like to nominate treachery faith and the great river as the best o'brien must suffer episode

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




it would probably be really hard to reconcile Q with the prophets honestly

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




off the top of my head when sisko yells "YOU BETRAYED YOUR UNIFORM" i could see someone having issues with that but i dunno, thats just who the character is to me. hell there was an entire two episodes where sisko repeatedly tries to give someones uniform back to them in the hopes that it would somehow trick them into rejoining starfleet

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




this is only partially on topic but this is basically a general ds9 thread: in 'in the pale moonlight', when vreenak is drinking the replicated drink and hes describing how he feels about it, is that supposed to be a metaphor for his feelings on the federation and the conversation at hand

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




i think the nog ptsd episode is pretty good but other than that the vic episodes are, eh

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




as soon as he arrives on ds9 he repeatedly antagonizes odo about security on the station by first loving up his investigation despite being told by literally everyone to stop being stupid. then he gets into an argument

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzhgEGeKcbo

where he looks like a dumbass so he moves his quarters to the defiant because hes unable to adjust like every other person thats ever gone to ds9

he blows up a ('thankfully' revealed to be empty) civilian transport ship that decloaks in front of him and then assaults the other side's lawyer in the middle of a trial, gets into physical fights with senior staff, lets a really important cardassian contact die because he cant properly ambush three unaware enemy soldiers with two starfleet officers, has to have chief obrien tell him how to treat starfleet personnel who are lower rank than him, cant stop pissing off all the people who are good at their job because all he can do is say stuff like "it is not honorable", etc

hes just a complete mess

Verviticus fucked around with this message at 21:54 on Jun 22, 2020

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




Sanguinia posted:

That episode is awesome in literally every way, don't lump it into Worf's hot mess-ness in the rest of DS9

a lot of worf eps and scenes are very good and that episode ruled but he still let a lawyer trick worf into punching him three times

a klingon lawyer wildly outsmarted him

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




Neo Rasa posted:

Worf loving rules. The vacation episode was great and added a lot of context to his behavior and how he went the super disciplined honor root after accidentally killing that kid as a teenager. I think Odo's conversation with him about the tightness with which a starship needs to be run vs. a space station with active commerce and all kinds of folks passing through wasn't necessarily as helpful as it seemed on the surface because after that Worf is very cut loose attitude wise. Think of how much he's the paranoid vigilant one before then and in TNG vs. all the poo poo he pulls afterwards. Also he's a huge badass and not only is he powerful enough to find and secure THE SWORD OF KAHLESS, he does what no one was in the episode was powerful enough to do by casting it away. Plus he stone cold murdered Gowron and it wasn't even the first time he clowned him in a fight in DS9.

I liked the mult-part where him+some folks get captured by the Dominion and he just cold beats the poo poo out of Jem'Hadar for like a day or two straight with no rest.


This fuckin' ruled and is made even better by how he treats Ezri lmao Worf you rear end in a top hat

he loses the last fight so badly the vorta in charge of the prison executes the first for beating up a child

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




i like that when jadzia/worf started the writers basically went finally, we can talk about fuckin and took every chance they could to imply that they gently caress and also beat the poo poo out of each other every chance they get

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




it wasnt mean spirited but he definitely enjoyed himself

the connection between damar and weyoun is fantastic. weyoun is fantastic. what an amazing villain, easily the best of any star trek

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rACCZaBcq1g

this entire scene is absolutely fantastic

Verviticus fucked around with this message at 22:26 on Jun 24, 2020

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




does 'you are cordially invited' count as an obrien must suffer episode

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




yah but its gotta just be jadzia cause dax is clearly still hanging around

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




that would be really confusing for jadzia when she was on her deathbed cause she'd basically be a totally different person immediately before croaking

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




rewatched improbable cause/the die is cast and i cant believe i never got/appreciated garak ridiculing caesar for being backstabbed by his friend only to watch his mentor/father have the exact same thing happen to him

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




ive always wondered how much of the dominion was actually developed by changelings versus their underlings. like did the changelings as a group develop their genetic engineering capabilities or was it a pre-vorta species they subjugated

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




sisko is clearly the best but all of the ds9 fathers are fine. rom starts off a pretty lovely father because he starts off a pretty lovely character but by season 2 they figured out how to make him interesting and miles is fine if maybe a little short temper from constantly being tortured for 20 years or whatever happened this week

edit: of the heroes. dukat and damar maybe leave something to be desired

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

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an ingenious solution

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




rewatched siege of ar-558 and man i cannot state how much it does not feel like a star trek episode and its so good anyways. one of a few eps that buck the trend of 'more combat worse ep'

edit: also one of the few eps where i actually notice and appreciate the music for doing something positive in the show

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




worf fails at everything

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




avery brooks probably contributed a lot to that

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




siskos a war criminal we all know that but. uh.. does he make it look cool

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




the problem i have with the dominion is that as they are written and constructed their entire upper class/leadership should be examining success/failure on the scale of decades or centuries, not years (and even one of the episodes mentions this) but instead of mostly just ignoring the federation or signing a diplomatic treaty and honouring it while they infiltrate it with changelings, they just continue acting more and more belligerent until a war starts.

i get that maybe incorporating the cardassians was an opportunity they figured they wouldnt have again, but i feel like ten or twenty years of non-aggression would have served them way better. and they should have been prepared for the possibility that they are essentially 1v4 against the fed/klingons/romulans/cardassians

the vorta are perfect servants that are content being recreated over and over and the changelings are ageless. they should not be in a rush to win a war against what has the possibility to be an existential threat to them if the stars align

poo poo, the federation would not have even learned that changelings are the bad guys if they had just sent the vorta to have a nice little chat and draw some territory lines

edit: hell, they might have even been able to convince odo to come back and stay if they hadnt hosed up and started a war to kill his friends! basically the dominion made a lot of mistakes

Verviticus fucked around with this message at 23:16 on Aug 16, 2020

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




Anonymous Zebra posted:

The Federation, Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians combined were no match for The Dominion. The combined powers didn't beat The Dominion, they beat a tiny fragment that was cut off from the rest by space gods living in a wormhole, and only at a huge cost. Remember, there was always an existential threat that MORE ships were just sitting on the other side of the wormhole, and the only thing stopping that was a minefield and later The Prophets.

There was no calculus The Founders needed to make. They were more technically advanced, had greater numbers, and their enemies were fragmented and easily swayed by Intel attacks. The only reason they lost (the tiny fragment of ships in the alpha, and 1 founder) was because of space gods that they couldn't have predicted would suddenly become active.

sorta? how were they going to get those ships through to fight the war? the series kinda just forgets about the minefield and the other side of the wormhole, but as the events progressed, the dominion was never actually able to project enough force to take and hold ds9 which was fundamentally important to using the rest of their ships. the war started because the dominion actively started pushing ships through.

like if the prophets just gave up im sure they could have made a second minefield

Pick posted:

That's actually one of the biggest problems I have with the series. I mean imagine that the next generation had ended in an all out existential war with the borg, and when all seems lost, Q showed up and snapped his fingers and made all the borg go away

Except I would actually sort of makes sense and be thematic with the opening two partner, particularly because Picard had saved Q in the past and Q had learned quite a bit about compassion and also is the one who introduced the borg...

To me the prophets are even worse because we don't actually get a sense of what their personality is or anything about them or even why we should care about them beside the fact that they are powerful and useful

there was a really good post a number of pages back about how the prophets saving ds9 and the alpha quadrant was a pretty good/thematically consistent use of godly power rather than Q just snapping his fingers and saving the universe

Verviticus fucked around with this message at 01:06 on Aug 18, 2020

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




probably a good thing?

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




Schadenboner posted:

I miss "'ol Tex" (as I've decided he's called). He was pleasingly .

While Eddington is a dishonorable renegade and traitor.

"captain did you ever remind starfleet that they brought eddington in because they didnt trust me"
"no"
"please do"

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




only like three years prior there was a situation where data's daughter was learning about human relationships and they apparently tried to include a same-sex couple holding hands in ten forward and were explicitly shutdown by the executives after someone reported it, so i dont blame them for just assuming they got as far as they could

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




i know the good guys needed the affirmation that they had indeed won but the episode probably couldve just ended with the slow zoom away from dukat over ziyals body even if the next two scenes were also really loving good

Verviticus fucked around with this message at 10:34 on Oct 18, 2020

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




it could have been the third best one if the ending wasnt so stupid

its illegal to think the best episode is anything other than the visitor or far beyond the stars

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Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




well i called the police. hope you all like jail

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