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Tighclops
Jan 23, 2008

Unable to deal with it


Grimey Drawer

I'm making this thread because I misinterpreted Pick's suggestion as just her being dicky. Sorry Pick!

So nu trek. it's

um


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVDo1E2JAAM





at the end of picard when Raffi is thanking Picard and getting all emotional, why is she thanking him? She is more estranged from her son and destroyed at least one friendship over the course of her journey. Her life is by the end of the season is marginally worse than when she started? I guess she gets to hook up with Seven though so like

that's pretty sweet I guess? ?





Star Trek

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Pascallion
Sep 15, 2003
Man, what the fuck, man?

The thing that sets Trek apart is the optimistic space utopia. If you’re not going to do that, then there’s no reason to use the setting (other than money which is directly opposed to gay space communism).

But all that being said, I would still give you a pass if you just make a competent loving television show.

*sigh*

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Good Star Trek sells the military industrial complex as the best of both worlds-- domestic comforts and frontier adventuring. Even the most wild cowboy "shoot first and sort it out later" characters on Old Trek were never too good to sit down and cook a meal, or read a book, or have a hobby. There's plenty of magic space fantasy bullshit, but in the end the appeal comes from humanistic touches that ground everything and make life in a world like this seem plausible, however improbable. Even the sterile science ship sets of VOY, prototype warp ship in ENT, or alien ephemera in DS9 were all grounded in feeling like places humans would plausibly want to live. You can argue that's a benefit of TV serialization and bright, even lighting, but they capture that same feeling in all the TOS and TNG movies-- even the really bad ones.

NuTrek's biggest problem is that all of the aesthetics are designed with a cold sterility and vacuousness. The only one to really escape that choice was Star Trek: Beyond, with Yorktown and some ship interiors. Into Darkness in-particular shows a future Earth that looks and feels absolutely dire unless you happen to be into city club culture, which even at its best is the opposite of cozy and inviting.

It's almost like 2 decades of increasing militarization and proto-fascists blossoming in the mainstream have warped the gently caress out of what creators think mainstream audiences want.

Hodgepodge
Jan 29, 2006


SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT PEWDIEPIE

(This red text bought on behalf of the Save Lowtax From Crippling Medical Debt Fund.)



mind the walrus posted:

Good Star Trek sells the military industrial complex as the best of both worlds-- domestic comforts and frontier adventuring. Even the most wild cowboy "shoot first and sort it out later" characters on Old Trek were never too good to sit down and cook a meal, or read a book, or have a hobby. There's plenty of magic space fantasy bullshit, but in the end the appeal comes from humanistic touches that ground everything and make life in a world like this seem plausible, however improbable. Even the sterile science ship sets of VOY, prototype warp ship in ENT, or alien ephemera in DS9 were all grounded in feeling like places humans would plausibly want to live. You can argue that's a benefit of TV serialization and bright, even lighting, but they capture that same feeling in all the TOS and TNG movies-- even the really bad ones.

NuTrek's biggest problem is that all of the aesthetics are designed with a cold sterility and vacuousness. The only one to really escape that choice was Star Trek: Beyond, with Yorktown and some ship interiors. Into Darkness in-particular shows a future Earth that looks and feels absolutely dire unless you happen to be into city club culture, which even at its best is the opposite of cozy and inviting.

It's almost like 2 decades of increasing militarization and proto-fascists blossoming in the mainstream have warped the gently caress out of what creators think mainstream audiences want.

the united federation of planets turned into the klingon empire so gradually that we didn't even notice

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



I don't want to know which Klingon Empire you've been hanging around.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


lol i reposted this in the gbs trek thread recently but might as well repost again in here since it's maximally relevant to this thread:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCxAJdCZGg

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure



Nu Trek? More like F U Trek.

Remember all those ideals that the UFP embodied? Well, they are merely a facade while a super secret ultra gestapo called Section 31 maintains the its superiority. Also, everyone knows about this super secret ultra gestapo. Oh, and Picard is now a Mass Effect. He's been Effected.

Filthy Hans
Jun 27, 2008





Hodgepodge posted:

the united federation of planets turned into the klingon empire so gradually that we didn't even notice

well, sooner or later they had to wipe out the Klingons around Uranus

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
mottled gecko

Nap Ghost

thanks tighclops

TBH I have not seen any nu-trek, despite loving star trek, and sort of doubt I ever will. I mean, I love Star Trek. I love Star Trek. but tbh I don't care for anything I've seen described. I'll try the pike show if it goes back to basics.

If I do watch nu-trek I expect I'll view it like high-budget star trek fanfilms. it will never really be integrated into my view of star trek.

though to be clear, I don't count Enterprise either. Or the JJ films.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
mottled gecko

Nap Ghost

one thing I hate: zoomey cameras and too many action shots

someone linked a zoomey camera shot from discovery and i wanted to barf. there was absolutely no reason to make the camera do any of the things it was doing.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
mottled gecko

Nap Ghost

the moment I definitely decided was "the furthest possible point arguable to be star trek" was the moment in the 09 film where vulcan was destroyed.

so vulcan's hosed. and romulus. and cardassia prime. and quo'nos although somehow i guess their moon... recovered or something

UNLESS YOU'RE ON PLANET AMERICA YOU ARE hosed BECAUSE EARTH! IS! THE! BESTEST!

SRQ
Nov 9, 2009


picard mentioning he "doesn't get" science fiction in the series makes me so mad I can't even vocalize it in language.

it's such a vast misunderstanding of his character for the purposes of an incredibly idiotic joke that wouldn't make sense even if he was a dumb idiot, but he's an astute well read near-genius.
that line _might_ fit kirk, but would still be stupid because the punchline is "hah get it because he's in science fiction"

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
mottled gecko

Nap Ghost

Kirk is canonically super well-read. Hell, he gets old books for his birthday

Tighclops
Jan 23, 2008

Unable to deal with it


Grimey Drawer

Kirk was a huge nerd at the academy and got beaten up by the other cadets for carrying his books around like a nerd instead of getting digital copies like a normal human

Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

lol i reposted this in the gbs trek thread recently but might as well repost again in here since it's maximally relevant to this thread:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCxAJdCZGg

lol I still can't get over this. How does this happen in something with a decent budget, did the crack team of a dozen producers/head writers pocket all the cash

Mooey Cow
Jan 27, 2018



Pillbug

ST: D?

More like ST: VD!


elf help book
Aug 5, 2004

It's not a dream, or a lie.
I know my sister is alive out there.


something i found so odd about Picard was so much of the show was looking backwards, but not to TNG. it was like it was nostalgic for another, better, show that doesnt even exist

it was so desperate to not tell a story too fast that it kept dropping these crumbs of backstory, to Picard and Raffi working together, to the evacuation stuff, to Picard working with the Romulans, and a million other things, that i was just left wondering why they weren't showing me that show instead of this depressing dreck where someone needs to die or be tortured every episode so that youd feel like something actually happened

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Tighclops posted:

Kirk was a huge nerd at the academy and got beaten up by the other cadets for carrying his books around like a nerd instead of getting digital copies like a normal human

one of them...was finnegan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YoMxNutXRuk

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



SRQ posted:

picard mentioning he "doesn't get" science fiction in the series makes me so mad I can't even vocalize it in language.

it's such a vast misunderstanding of his character for the purposes of an incredibly idiotic joke that wouldn't make sense even if he was a dumb idiot, but he's an astute well read near-genius.
that line _might_ fit kirk, but would still be stupid because the punchline is "hah get it because he's in science fiction"

That's one of the weirder things about NuTrek is that the producers seem so convinced they'll get mainstream audiences that they don't even need to try to pay fealty to the Trek nerds that are both guaranteed to watch the show and scrutinize it. You don't have to give Trek fans continuity porn or cater to them as your primary demo, but if you get them in your corner they'll help boost and forgive a hell of a lot of other stylistic choices, and that means knowing really basic poo poo like "Picard is a well-read man with an appreciation for literature." Yes part of the big joke in Tapestry is that he was a cocky jock at the Academy, but the "very subtle" end of that episode was all about Picard recognizing that he had to nurture both his cautiously nerdy and arrogant bombastic sides of his personality if he wanted a prestigious job like Captain of the Flagship.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure



I refuse to watch this nu trek*, or anything that has Alex Kurtzman's stink on it. Part of what makes me hate all of it so much is that these movies are just in-vogue antihero prestige TV in Star Trek dressing. Star Trek is supposed to be optimistic, inspirational, and uplifting. It's one of the few franchises that had the courage to say, "Look, we realize that humanity is really lovely right now, but we don't HAVE to be that way. We can be better. We will be better." When you remove that spirit from the show, then what you are left with is pointedly not Star Trek.

*The one exception is Star Trek 2009 because Chris Pine loving GETS James T. Kirk, and Pine is amazing in anything and everything he does. Not Into Darkness, though. That movie blows goats.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Abrams and his team's one genuine gift is casting, and even the most ardent haters in the universe can't say they didn't find the absolute best people to play the TOS cast given the circumstances... Bimblywimbly WalletCruncher's Khan notwithstanding.

Incidentally I remember pointing out how obvious it was that "John Harrison" was going to turn out to be Khan in the run-up to Into Darkness and getting virulent pushback in C/D because "Abrams said he wasn't!" and "Why would they lie?" and "You're being cynical" only for the actual movie to confirm not only what I thought but so much worse.

But more to the point yeah-- Pine, Quinto, Urban, Saldana, Pegg, Cho, Yelchin... all the best people they could have asked for and it's a real loving shame they weren't given scripts to take advantage of their talent until Beyond.

Tighclops
Jan 23, 2008

Unable to deal with it


Grimey Drawer

You should watch Picard just so you'll know first hand how bad it's gotten, it's only 10 episodes lmao

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


I had heard Picard looked cheap, but I had no idea!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaqsUI55FqU

Pick
Jul 19, 2009
mottled gecko

Nap Ghost

I actually hate Quinto as Spock. He seems like a nice guy, but holy crap I thought he did that role extremely poorly. Peck seems good from the clips I've seen.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Bogus Adventure posted:

*The one exception is Star Trek 2009 because Chris Pine loving GETS James T. Kirk, and Pine is amazing in anything and everything he does. Not Into Darkness, though. That movie blows goats.

I've matured past my irrational repulsion to Pine's eyebrows, and while I do believe he can do a good Kirk, I think he gets severely undercut by the writing/directing.

Like, having Kirk swing his whole body around to check out a woman passing by is absurd and gross.



mind the walrus posted:

Abrams and his team's one genuine gift is casting, and even the most ardent haters in the universe can't say they didn't find the absolute best people to play the TOS cast given the circumstances... Bimblywimbly WalletCruncher's Khan notwithstanding.

Incidentally I remember pointing out how obvious it was that "John Harrison" was going to turn out to be Khan in the run-up to Into Darkness and getting virulent pushback in C/D because "Abrams said he wasn't!" and "Why would they lie?" and "You're being cynical" only for the actual movie to confirm not only what I thought but so much worse.

But more to the point yeah-- Pine, Quinto, Urban, Saldana, Pegg, Cho, Yelchin... all the best people they could have asked for and it's a real loving shame they weren't given scripts to take advantage of their talent until Beyond.

I don't care for Quinto as Spock, and I think Pine and Quinto have terrible chemistry.

Tighclops
Jan 23, 2008

Unable to deal with it


Grimey Drawer

I think they realized that because they're apart for most of Beyond

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



I'll agree that Pine and Quinto have bad chemistry but I did like him as Spock. He was the only cast member who had to play off of his original incarnation and you're just not gonna win a Nimoy impersonation contest with Nimoy, so he found a differentiation that worked. He definitely lacked refinement, but that's the vibe NuTrek was going for with its "frat house in space" stuff.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.



Haven't seen Picard but I did watch both seasons of Discovery and uh remember when it was revealed the space angel chose Spock as the instrument of life's salvation because he was dyslexic?

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.



My favourite moment though was probably in I think the first episode of the second series where, just after we've seen some Klingons and lo and behold they're still hideous monstrosities but they're no longer bald anymore, Michael talks to wotsisname and goes like "hey I heard the Klingons have hair again".

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



Sombrerotron posted:

My favourite moment though was probably in I think the first episode of the second series where, just after we've seen some Klingons and lo and behold they're still hideous monstrosities but they're no longer bald anymore, Michael talks to wotsisname and goes like "hey I heard the Klingons have hair again".
"See fans we listened to you."

I really wanted to like Discovery but nearly everything I saw about it made me groan.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure



Discovery had Jason Isaacs, who is one of the best actors around. He has the range and gravitas that he could have been another great captain. Instead, they made him a creepy Mirror Universe groomer.

dudeness
Mar 5, 2010

Cat Army


Fallen Rib

Pick posted:

one thing I hate: zoomey cameras and too many action shots

someone linked a zoomey camera shot from discovery and i wanted to barf. there was absolutely no reason to make the camera do any of the things it was doing.

It's always like that, even when it's just two people talking, it's the worst.

Tighclops
Jan 23, 2008

Unable to deal with it


Grimey Drawer

One of the things that kills me is that so many of their choices are obviously *ahem* "inspired by" other stuff regardless of whether it makes any sense or not, like the implied incest in PicardShow or the constant emotional climaxes being undercut by a lack of any coherent build up

and my dudes, as much as I used to be all about poo poo like the TNG tech manual, the encyclopedias and whatnot... I have no energy for loving canon or loooreee (not that one) anymore. Oh look they're literally using clips from the The Cage and look like that door label is the same as it was in TOS and look it's literally the Enterprise kind of and wow look now its a model of a ship we saw that time in that mov-shiiiiiiIiiiIIITTTTT PIISSSSSSSSsss. I used to get mad at ENT for sort of running away from it's prequel premise for 3 out of 4 seasons but now I see what they were trying to avoid doing and boy howdy am I glad that 90's Trek decided that References to poo poo were a sometimes treat

When they do that stuff now or even play the TOS fanfare I either feel nothing or am actively nonplussed by it, as opposed to getting chills. Is this what religious people feel like when they learn there are no gods and nothing waits for them beyond the veil of death but the icy embrace of the howling dark?

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



It's like someone you're dating just assuming you want a sexual favor in the car every time you go out-- the first time it's maybe something you're into like "oh so you're a freak like that?" but afterward it starts coming across as pathetic, lacking confidence, and generally desperate... especially when they spend rest of the dates posturing about how much cooler and hipper they are than their nerdy older sibling.

I mean sure there's a chance you're the kind of low-rent pig who would be psyched by that level of submissive servility, but despite what you might have heard most people get bored and disgusted really quick.

---

Also new thread title:

quote:

NuTrek: References are a Sometimes Treat

mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 03:01 on May 19, 2020

Son of Sam-I-Am
Feb 12, 2002





Tighclops posted:

the implied incest in PicardShow

lol wtf?? Do I even want to know?

dangerburrd
Feb 20, 2013


So is the terrible secret of the zhat vash actually just “robots might kill people?” I’m not about to finish this to find out.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.



mind the walrus posted:

"See fans we listened to you."

I really wanted to like Discovery but nearly everything I saw about it made me groan.
Honestly I was glad they gave them hair again, but it just blew my mind that they would feel the need to explicitly call it out like that mere seconds after showing it. It was almost as bad as the "Salt!" exclamation in TLJ.

Farmer Crack-Ass
Jan 2, 2001

~this is me posting irl~


Sombrerotron posted:

Honestly I was glad they gave them hair again, but it just blew my mind that they would feel the need to explicitly call it out like that mere seconds after showing it. It was almost as bad as the "Salt!" exclamation in TLJ.

lol there were multiple callouts early in the second season. someone mentioned the captain being a big meanie or something and the lady says "no that was the previous captain... he's not around any more", and then Pike says something like "you're telling me we're gonna skip across the galaxy on a mushroom highway"

Tighclops
Jan 23, 2008

Unable to deal with it


Grimey Drawer

When Pike first shows up he literally makes a speech to the crew saying something like "I'm not like him, I won't hurt you"

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



I honestly didn't mind the "salt" exclamation because idiots like myself couldn't tell wtf the landscape was meant to be. It was clunky, but I mean no worse than most of the Rebel dialogue in the OT. That's off the topic though.

The "hair" thing just seems like one of those moments where NuTrek tries to be cutesy but it falls flat because like all NuTrek it's borderline schizophrenic in trying to decide if it wants to be nice or dismissive of Old Trek.

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Filthy Hans
Jun 27, 2008





Bogus Adventure posted:

Discovery had Jason Isaacs, who is one of the best actors around. He has the range and gravitas that he could have been another great captain. Instead, they made him a creepy Mirror Universe groomer.

Jason Isaacs is fantastic, if you want to see him at his best watch Brotherhood, a 3-season show where he plays a Providence RI gangster with a flexible conscience

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0457229/?ref_=ttfc_fc_tt

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