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pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

Thus posts regarding it should not be allowed in this hallowed forum.

Discuss.

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Roth
Jul 9, 2016


We should discuss it in qcs

BoldFrankensteinMir
Jul 28, 2006

Darn! Darn! Darn!



A New Hope is science fiction, the Death Star is a new technology that threatens to upset the balance of power and we explore how people react to that. Obi-Wan's little "that's no moon" moment is a pretty elegant bit of futureshock acting, I always thought. Same with Leia getting shown her home planet being destroyed just as a proof of concept. The Death Star is a cultural force too.

The rest of it, yeah, technology never grows or changes ever again, even when we go back in time for the prequels which is bizarre. The actual day-to-day implications of mass Droid slavery are left remarkably unexplored, same with clones, same with everything except planet-buster-laser, that's the "new thing" and again, only for one movie. Even when we see people designing that laser in Ep II it's just a throw-away, it's not like anybody talks about the grasshopper aliens breaking a treaty to do it or something.

So yeah I agree on every film except Ep IV, that one actually does have a glimmer of real classic speculative fiction in it, mostly because of Alec Guinness.

Sombrerotron
Aug 1, 2004

Release my children! My hat is truly great and mighty.



There's science-fiction and then there's sci-fi, the latter of which is essentially "action with futuristic stuff on top of it", so actually it's the likes of Star Trek and Babylon 5 and Asimov and everything else that might really be considered science-fiction that need to be evicted from this otherwise perfectly fine subforum.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


What, do you think it's real?

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



"Oh god not this poo poo again"

-- everyone's reaction to this thread title.

Regardless of ontological arguments Star Wars has been considered science fiction in practical terms since its very conception 43 goddamn years ago, therefore it's unrealistic and even delusional to think that people are going to change gears because of some poo poo.

reignofevil
Nov 7, 2008


It's not my job to know what it is and what it isn't. These forums shall be what we build them to be.

Chuck Buried Treasure
Dec 27, 2010



Genre isnít real. Itís just marketing.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure



SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


The vast bulk of science fiction runs on fictional science anyways. I don't see what's so different about Star Wars.

Filthy Hans
Jun 27, 2008





op if you're earnestly arguing that a franchise based on aliens, robots, space ships, ray guns and laser swords isn't sci-fi enough for a forum that has ~20 people viewing it at any one time then maybe Reddit is more your speed

Frankenstyle
Dec 3, 2005



SlothfulCobra posted:

The vast bulk of science fiction runs on fictional science anyways. I don't see what's so different about Star Wars.

Please allow me to explain the difference between the childish nonsense of Star War's "The force did it" and the nuanced sophistication of Star Treks "We need to overbuffer the fluctuating Glorbotronetic phase matrix plasma flax elucidator!"







*poot*

Big Beef City
Aug 15, 2013
Probation
Can't post for 8 days!


Ramrod XTreme

Buddy they don't even let ME wear it (the glove of Darth Vader)


because of how fictional it is in this based science

Squizzle
Apr 24, 2008


ďIíll have to get you to excuse me, my friend, I ainít no hat-rack.Ē

Fun Shoe

r2d2 would be my friend, scientifically speaking

Zeluth
May 12, 2001



Morbid Hound

I am going to step off my hover board now. What did you just say?

Barudak
May 7, 2007



Thats because Star Wars is a documentary, and the events happen in real-time

Filthy Hans
Jun 27, 2008





Squizzle posted:

r2d2 would be my friend, scientifically speaking

nah, R2D2 hated stormtroopers

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

"When I started here all there was was lampshade warehouses and leather bars, the serious leather bars where you wouldn't get in unless you had a rubber ball stuffed in your mouth, the wine list was tattooed on the bartender's face. That kind of place."

-Bogus Adventure



Filthy Hans posted:

nah, R2D2 hated stormtroopers

lol

Squizzle
Apr 24, 2008


ďIíll have to get you to excuse me, my friend, I ainít no hat-rack.Ē

Fun Shoe

Filthy Hans posted:

nah, R2D2 hated stormtroopers

Saint Drogo
Dec 26, 2011



scifi is a fake genre, all fiction is fantasy

habituallyred
Feb 6, 2015


Science Fantasy!

Look it up.

Mooey Cow
Jan 27, 2018



Pillbug

It's sci-fi OP, it's in space. That's what sci-fi is.

elf help book
Aug 5, 2004

It's not a dream, or a lie.
I know my sister is alive out there.


Agreed but only for the opposite reason, the forum name being just "Star Wars" was funnier and it should be changed back to that

Daikloktos
Jan 1, 2020



Fantasy is just social-science fiction, if we're doing all the classics here

Zoran
Aug 19, 2008

I lost to you once, monster. I shall not lose again! Die now, that our future can live!


BoldFrankensteinMir posted:

The rest of it, yeah, technology never grows or changes ever again, even when we go back in time for the prequels which is bizarre.

One subtle touch I like is that prequel-era one-man starfighters canít fit a hyperdrive, so they attach to external booster rings that they leave in orbit

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


If anything, a lot of the shiny tech of the prequels looks like poo poo in the originals

pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

Zoran posted:

One subtle touch I like is that prequel-era one-man starfighters canít fit a hyperdrive, so they attach to external booster rings that they leave in orbit

My understanding is that some one man starfighters can fit a hyperdrive and some can't. So this isn't really a technology question, it's a question of which model. Like all the tie fighters the Empire uses can't fit hyperdrive, that's why they have to emerge from the ships, whereas the rebellion uses starfighters with hyperdrives.

I think I read this in a star wars RPG book about 25 years ago, so it might not be canon.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Tie fighters are one of the smallest starships we see throughout the movies, so there's not much room to work with, but more importantly, they were just designed without hyperdrives to cut costs. It's not like the Empire had any intention of sending strike forces without heavier ships to back them up. This also had the handy side effect of reinforcing individual pilot reliance on the command structure and left potentially disloyal pilots without a way to easily defect.

Some of the EU books like the Essential Guides go and write little stories about the corporate development of individual ships, and the tie fighter's super barebones design is directly derived from jedi starfighters which relied on expert pilots to make up for deficiencies in shields and such, despite the Imperial reforms that were made to emphasize uniformity and interchangeability of pilots over training up aces. They were still put into production because all the cut costs made them cheap as hell, and the only people who were directly inconvenienced by their deficiencies were way down in the command chain.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


The idea was to essentially swarm enemies with numbers.

Kinda funny that in the various strategy and sim games that the Empire is the one that relies on overwhelming cheap units while Rebels have powerful, expensive ones.

Usually ot's the inverse.

BoldFrankensteinMir
Jul 28, 2006

Darn! Darn! Darn!


Zoran posted:

One subtle touch I like is that prequel-era one-man starfighters canít fit a hyperdrive, so they attach to external booster rings that they leave in orbit

Okay yeah I guess that's fair. It's never a plot point, like Amidala says "the new ships are always so dirty, chrome will never go out of style!" but yeah that ring-thing young Obi Wan uses, that fits into the larger discussion of:

SlothfulCobra posted:

Tie fighters are one of the smallest starships we see throughout the movies, so there's not much room to work with, but more importantly, they were just designed without hyperdrives to cut costs. It's not like the Empire had any intention of sending strike forces without heavier ships to back them up. This also had the handy side effect of reinforcing individual pilot reliance on the command structure and left potentially disloyal pilots without a way to easily defect.

Tie fighters don't even have life support, you have to wear a crappy black space suit while you pilot one. I always thought that was a nice dehumanizing aspect of the empire, and although it didn't end up this way, as a kid in the pre-prequels years I always thought that was how Darth Vader ended up a cyborg, he just spent so many hours piloting his fancy interceptor he eventually just never took off the gear. The first time a forcefield on a cargo bay failed and everybody not in a mask died it would have paid off, and it's not like the Empire would take an incident like that as impetus to fix anything.

pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

BoldFrankensteinMir posted:

Okay yeah I guess that's fair. It's never a plot point, like Amidala says "the new ships are always so dirty, chrome will never go out of style!" but yeah that ring-thing young Obi Wan uses, that fits into the larger discussion of:


Tie fighters don't even have life support, you have to wear a crappy black space suit while you pilot one. I always thought that was a nice dehumanizing aspect of the empire, and although it didn't end up this way, as a kid in the pre-prequels years I always thought that was how Darth Vader ended up a cyborg, he just spent so many hours piloting his fancy interceptor he eventually just never took off the gear. The first time a forcefield on a cargo bay failed and everybody not in a mask died it would have paid off, and it's not like the Empire would take an incident like that as impetus to fix anything.

Pretty sure you just put more thought into this post than Lucas put into the prequels.

BoldFrankensteinMir
Jul 28, 2006

Darn! Darn! Darn!


Now I can't stop imagining A New Hope but the Empire have fancy X-wings with life support and the rebels have lovely tie fighters they have to pilot with space suits on. And it's maddening because I just keep thinking the only reason it's not that way is because you have to see the good guys' faces in a movie.

pseudanonymous
Aug 30, 2008

When you make the second entry and the debits and credits balance, and you blow them to hell.

BoldFrankensteinMir posted:

Now I can't stop imagining A New Hope but the Empire have fancy X-wings with life support and the rebels have lovely tie fighters they have to pilot with space suits on. And it's maddening because I just keep thinking the only reason it's not that way is because you have to see the good guys' faces in a movie.

It could've been that the empire provided space suits for people so that if they had a hull breach they survived but the rebels were plucky and poor and couldn't afford advanced systems like that.

mind the walrus
Sep 22, 2006



I mean you could be generous and say that authoritarian fascist regimes that go properly uncontested will grow inefficient and cheap, but that's giving everyone involved in ANH's production the wrong kind-of credit.

BoldFrankensteinMir
Jul 28, 2006

Darn! Darn! Darn!


pseudanonymous posted:

It could've been that the empire provided space suits for people so that if they had a hull breach they survived but the rebels were plucky and poor and couldn't afford advanced systems like that.

Oh god this headcanon requires very specifically ignoring EU stuff that isn't real canon anymore, so I actually don't know if Tie Fighters don't have life support anymore and you might already be right? Star Wars actively makes it hard to be the kind of fan it's famous for, wtf.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


It's also worth noting that they use all the money they save on those cheap garbage fighters to buy more big fancy star destroyers, or even bigger and fancier mega-ships, because important officers get to play with those, and the quality of your equipment is directly related to your clout.

Great for assaulting a full-size enemy fleet, not really for dealing with hit and run tactics from small targets across a front too wide to cover with ISDs. Kind of a typical mistake for a huge formalized state used to fighting more formal wars to overlook smaller forces.

PeterWeller
Apr 20, 2003

I told you that story so I could tell you this one.


TIEs are fast and fragile and come in swarms because Star Wars' dog fights are based on movies about WW2 in the Pacific. So the TIEs are like Zeros and the letter wings are like Wildcats, Corsairs, Dauntlesses, etc.

BoldFrankensteinMir
Jul 28, 2006

Darn! Darn! Darn!


They don't even have landing gear, do they? I thought TIE ships had to be loaded into those little docks with a robot arm, and they just rest on the bottoms of the hexagons. They're twin ion engines and a cockpit, like the cheapiest little ship possible.

Filthy Hans
Jun 27, 2008





BoldFrankensteinMir posted:

Okay yeah I guess that's fair. It's never a plot point, like Amidala says "the new ships are always so dirty, chrome will never go out of style!" but yeah that ring-thing young Obi Wan uses, that fits into the larger discussion of:


Tie fighters don't even have life support, you have to wear a crappy black space suit while you pilot one. I always thought that was a nice dehumanizing aspect of the empire, and although it didn't end up this way, as a kid in the pre-prequels years I always thought that was how Darth Vader ended up a cyborg, he just spent so many hours piloting his fancy interceptor he eventually just never took off the gear. The first time a forcefield on a cargo bay failed and everybody not in a mask died it would have paid off, and it's not like the Empire would take an incident like that as impetus to fix anything.

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BoldFrankensteinMir
Jul 28, 2006

Darn! Darn! Darn!


So I guess what I'm taking away from this discussion so far is, there are sci-fi concepts being explored in Star Wars, it's just hard to pinpoint them because the continuity is such a giant mess that any possible meaning you glean from the imagery has been contradicted or confused by now. So it is sci-fi, OP, it's just not very good sci-fi.

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