|
PlasticAutomaton posted:Also Akane continues to be the single worst person in the series, even topping actual serial killers Dio and Mira. Zero II's probably worse. quote:Oh. If we have time travel shenanigans involved then Phi really IS their kid. Yeah, Diana and Phi have the same color eyebrows... and Phi dyes her hair white... in retrospect, this all makes sense. Also, here's another awkward question. Diana presumably had the necklace because she bought it from somewhere. But where did Phi's brooch come from, originally?
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 01:00
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 02:12 |
|
|
Holy poo poo I was right all along  Quackles posted:Also, here's another awkward question. Diana presumably had the necklace because she bought it from somewhere. But where did Phi's brooch come from, originally? Seems like it's part of a causal loop wherein it's always existed but has no beginning. That's a common paradox in these time travel stories. I suppose if you want to get really technical then the brooch was created by the machine twenty-something years ago using the atomic information sent to it from the future, though of course that runs into the problem of entropy wherein the exact atomic signature of the item could not possibly be the same in every loop since the brooch will clearly degrade over time, and yet because this is a closed system it by necessity has to be the same. The resolution to this is, quite obviously, "don't think too hard about it or your brain will explode" 
Super Jay Mann fucked around with this message at 01:07 on Jul 13, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 01:00
|
|
|
Quackles posted:Also, here's another awkward question. Diana presumably had the necklace because she bought it from somewhere. But where did Phi's brooch come from, originally? Don't think about it. Causality gets weird with time travel.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 01:04
|
|
|
I wonder how Delta is going to play into all of this? It's funny Phi doesn't know who he is, given they'd be found together.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 01:08
|
|
|
I must admit, I didn't have time-and-space-shifted-family on my Zero Escape Bingo Card, but I feel like I should have.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 01:11
|
|
|
DKII posted:Part 67: The Stranded Pair Man, really bad allergies right now.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 01:11
|
|
|
TheSoulian posted:I wonder how Delta is going to play into all of this? It's funny Phi doesn't know who he is, given they'd be found together. Well, if Phi is truly Phi, then my best guess would be that Delta has to wind up being either Q or Zero since those are the two characters the game has yet to expose or explore in any meaningful way.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 01:29
|
|
|
So Phi died in the same place she was conceived. I always knew she was a salmon at heart.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 01:33
|
|
|
Bluebird lamentation gets me every time, damnit
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 01:43
|
|
|
EricFate posted:Well, if Phi is truly Phi, then my best guess would be that Delta has to wind up being either Q or Zero since those are the two characters the game has yet to expose or explore in any meaningful way. I mean, given that time travel is now just A Thing, who's the say Delta can't end up being both?
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 01:45
|
|
|
For some reason, I seem to remember having only the Locker Room fragment when I got to this point, and needing to complete that before I was able to see this scene. It might be related to the order in which I did things, though, since I hadn't watched the various Execution fragments yet.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 01:56
|
|
|
 That explains quite a bit about Phi. Where's Delta though? He's likely going to have to factor into this story since they brought him up.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 01:56
|
|
|
There's even a term for this sort of causal loop: the Bootstrap Paradox.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 02:04
|
|
|
If you get the lock on this scene, the scene will end right after Sigma says "We've run out of cards in our deck." I still maintain that Luna is a more interesting Diana than Diana, but I really like this ending. Seeing Diana slowly become unhinged from the situation was really great. And Sigma definitely deserved to be slapped for that whole "Let me tell you what your actual problem with this situation is," thing. Like, holy poo poo, man, she's already feeling terrible about being locked in here forever. You have to bring up her abusive relationship and throw it in her face? Also, Sigma's face when Diana asks him to sleep with her.  I wonder if Young Sigma ever found out that he asked his daughter to model in a swimsuit for him. I also wonder where that brooch originally came from or if it just spawned into existence inexplicably. PlasticAutomaton posted:Also Akane continues to be the single worst person in the series, even topping actual serial killers Dio and Mira. 
Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 02:45 on Jul 13, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 02:40
|
|
|
I’m just glad the LP had reached the Transporter escape room before I got there in my playthrough just now, because as soon as I fiddled with the cards and looked at the book, I knew this whole thing stank of math, and it was already like 3:00 am so I just stole the answer and moved on with this. Naturally, I had a later night than anticipated despite that theft. Now I’ll settle in to watch! Great LP and thread, adding a bunch of context I missed while binging it in the last few days.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 02:47
|
|
|
Nidoking posted:For some reason, I seem to remember having only the Locker Room fragment when I got to this point, and needing to complete that before I was able to see this scene. It might be related to the order in which I did things, though, since I hadn't watched the various Execution fragments yet. Yeah there is an impressive amount of things needed to break through that lock (including at least seeing Q-Team Executed). Pretty unusual to get through this whole scene before doing the Locker Room, I think. On my first playthrough I did this fragment relatively early and didn't even realize there was a lock until much later. Blueberry Pancakes posted:If you get the lock on this scene, the scene will end right after Sigma says "We've run out of cards in our deck." Thanks for confirming, my timeline is still restricted until I finish up the Locker Room so I couldn't actually check myself.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 04:02
|
|
|
EricFate posted:Well, if Phi is truly Phi, then my best guess would be that Delta has to wind up being either Q or Zero since those are the two characters the game has yet to expose or explore in any meaningful way. TheSoulian posted:I mean, given that time travel is now just A Thing, who's the say Delta can't end up being both? I don't think Delta can be real-Q. Real-Q was described as being a wheelchair bound old man. Delta and Phi are twins, and Phi is definitely not an old woman. Delta being Zero isn't out of the question though.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 04:10
|
|
|
This is my favorite part of the game.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 04:21
|
|
|
DKII posted:I was pretty emotional during this scene when I first watched it years ago. Between being a parent now, and knowing the wider context of it...it hit me even harder this time. I'd just given birth about a month before this game came out, and hooooooo boy I know what you mean  The worst part was I'd seen the door that said "twins' birthday", but hadn't got to theorising yet about Phi's history, like this thread already did a bit early. And I wasn't thinking about transporting the kids for a moment either, cause the very first moment they revealed the twins at all, I had this horrible feeling of dread. I got to thinking that in most timelines, Sigma and Diana probably never got to properly be together but in just this one, they get this little teaser of a family life they could have had, and even here it's just doomed and sad for them to starve together, and all this was set up just so Zero could have a date for them to find out and punch into one loving puzzle. A few moments later I figured Phi must be the same Phi, and the transporter means at least one version of the kids will be transported out, which will be worthwhile since it leads to the Phi we know and love. It's not like this took place and those kids were born just to be a puzzle answer then starve. But holy gently caress that felt pretty awful for a minute, and it is still really loving sad for the group left behind.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 04:48
|
|
|
Bifauxnen posted:Sigma and Diana probably never got to properly be together but in just this one, they get this little teaser of a family life they could have had, and even here it's just doomed and sad for them to starve together, and all this was set up just so Zero could have a date for them to find out and punch into one loving puzzle. Zero II doesn't go halfway on being an rear end in a top hat. It's incredible, really.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 05:05
|
|
|
Yeah as 'meh' as everything about the Transporter Room is, this scene is actually really good. D-Team is the best, y'all. Bifauxnen posted:I'd just given birth about a month before this game came out, and hooooooo boy I know what you mean Let's add to that: even if, somehow, the Diana and Sigma in the VLR timeline knew that they'd have had kids in another timeline, they still wouldn't have kids... because Sigma would refuse because they'd have to stay on track to history. For Phi to be born, she has to die.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 05:05
|
|
|
Whoever's cutting onions better knock it off before folks dehydrate! (Seriously, this scene was good stuff, even if it is-was-will be time paradox and time loop central.)
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 05:15
|
|
|
DKII posted:I was pretty emotional during this scene when I first watched it years ago. Between being a parent now, and knowing the wider context of it...it hit me even harder this time. God, yeah, this is even more impactful now that I'm a parent than it was when I played it back near release.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 05:42
|
|
|
Quackles posted:Also, here's another awkward question. Diana presumably had the necklace because she bought it from somewhere. But where did Phi's brooch come from, originally? Diana mentions that Phi's brooch was in her pocket (instead of on the floor of the incinerator) for some reason. Presumably Zero slipped it in there, so I bet it's not actually the one Phi had, but the true original that gets copied by the transporter and sent back in time. That would also explain the Latin carved on the back—Zero does love dropping pretentious Latin phrases.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 06:55
|
|
|
Bloody Emissary posted:Diana mentions that Phi's brooch was in her pocket (instead of on the floor of the incinerator) for some reason. Presumably Zero slipped it in there, so I bet it's not actually the one Phi had, but the true original that gets copied by the transporter and sent back in time. That would also explain the Latin carved on the back—Zero does love dropping pretentious Latin phrases. Diana picks it up in the incineration segment, it's easy to assume she pocketed it instead of putting it back down.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 07:01
|
|
|
So as of right now, Carlos and Helmet Head are the only ones without a now-known prior connection to another player, right?
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 07:09
|
|
|
Bruceski posted:Diana picks it up in the incineration segment, it's easy to assume she pocketed it instead of putting it back down. Sure, but she says she doesn't know why it's there even though she had the flashback to the incinerator segment before that conversation (the flashback includes a shot of her picking up the brooch, too). I think it's very plausible as an explanation.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 07:17
|
|
|
Bloody Emissary posted:Sure, but she says she doesn't know why it's there even though she had the flashback to the incinerator segment before that conversation (the flashback includes a shot of her picking up the brooch, too). I think it's very plausible as an explanation. The brooch isn't there when Diana and Sigma go through the incinerator again looking for Phi, so it has to have gone somewhere, and given that Diana was the last person holding it, the most obvious explanation is that she held onto it (why would she just pick up a memento of her friend and just leave it back on the ground?), the drugs made her forget, and she's only now getting the information about the events of the incinerator.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 07:24
|
|
|
As crazy as the story can be, this part isn't convoluted(relatively speaking ). She picked up the brooch, but was forced to forget. So of course she'd feel weird to "suddenly" have that item.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 07:29
|
|
|
Rabbi Raccoon posted:So as of right now, Carlos and Helmet Head are the only ones without a now-known prior connection to another player, right? That is correct.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 07:42
|
|
|
ApplesandOranges posted:The brooch isn't there when Diana and Sigma go through the incinerator again looking for Phi, so it has to have gone somewhere, and given that Diana was the last person holding it, the most obvious explanation is that she held onto it (why would she just pick up a memento of her friend and just leave it back on the ground?), the drugs made her forget, and she's only now getting the information about the events of the incinerator. Mindblast posted:As crazy as the story can be, this part isn't convoluted(relatively speaking Do you guys have a better explanation for where the brooch originally came from and why it has Latin carved into the back? Because "it just exists, for no reason" is much less compelling and "the simplest explanation is that nothing happened at all" isn't really substantial evidence against the theory. Maybe if I was proposing something more complicated than "Zero stuck the "original" brooch in her pocket while she was asleep and there's no bootstrap paradox," but I'm not. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 07:56
|
|
|
Half the series is basically a bootstrap paradox. Uchikoshi is fond of closed time loops and 'because it was, it will be' kind of deals. In fact, since you're proposing the theory you're the one who needs more evidence. The 'this is why it has Latin encarved into the back!' makes even less sense because the copy that gets sent back in time would... also have Latin in the back. The brooch exists because it does. It has Latin on the back because it always had Latin on the back.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 08:03
|
|
|
The obvious answer is that the snail made the brooch and also wrote the Latin.  Mindblast posted:I don't know if this paradox is intentional or if they didn't know how to fix it and just went "gently caress it"... Phi is named after herself, so I would assume it's intentional. Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Jul 13, 2020 |
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 09:34
|
|
|
It's not that the idea of Zero planting it is the most convoluted thing on its own. It's that an even more straightforward answer is in plain sight and makes other explanations convoluted in comparison. I agree that "it exists because it does" isn't compelling but these paradoxes often happen.  I don't know if this paradox is intentional or if they didn't know how to fix it and just went "gently caress it"...
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 09:35
|
|
|
So... I argued that each team needed to 'Do Something' with their section of the ward. That Carlos's team having a "Roll the dice to get lucky" room as well as the AB Room was to force them into Shifting. The Transporter is for allowing characters who can't be alive in other timelines TO be alive. That Q Team... I dunno has Radical-6, and also robot boy who we'll learn about soon. That said. I think... given how we're dealing with time travel and paradox's I think D-Team is here to ensure Phi is born. Okay so Phi needs to be born, both because she's the original vector of Radical-6 AND because like Akane she's alive on the moon. Going by delayed wake-up theory, that teams aren't active at the same time. Akane would always escape alone, then likely be drugged by the bracelet to forget the events so that Sigma and Diana would be forced to remain in the shelter, as I went over when discussing the Delayed Wake-up theory, C team acts first. Which means any timeline where C-Team is alive and 6 people are dead, they should be able to leave the Shelter. So... Zero II needs Phi to exist, Phi only exists by Diana and Sigma boinking, And then sending the babies with the transporter back in time. Isn't it just a bit too coincidental there was enough food to last to a second transporter use? Zero II so far has acted with Akane's ruthlessness in regards to "you're only alive as long as I need you to be." So now, with this ending, Phi existence is assured... which is quite the take on 999's Akane's existence needing to be assured by Junpei solving her Sudoku puzzle. Now, the question is "Delta". People have brought up him being Q or Zero II. That can work, despite the obvious age difference between the Q we've been told about and Phi. Zero II needs himself to exist, ergo, he needs Diana and Sigma to gently caress, Ergo he set up the decision game to ensure his own existence. And Zero did say at the start of the game  If that was just Radical-6 well... I guess he'd also need Radical-6 to exist, so that Sigma would go to the moon with Diana to study it, fall in love, send his old mind back in time with Phi, so they could go to D-Com, so they could meet Diana, so that- Does anyone smell copper?
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 09:57
|
|
|
Now I want an epilogue at the end of the game where correct age Sigma shifts back into his body and Phi gets him up to speed, while Diana/the rest of the group watch his reactions with a lot of popcorn. Anyways, called it*.    First time it was merely a joke because old Sigma had clearly adopted Phi and so Diana was obviously going to be adoptive mom. Second time it was serious because the writer could not help themselves with that "parents must have been an handful" ironic joke from old Sigma. *Massive props to the goon that called it during VLR. Can't track who, phoneposting. They should post a single page sized smuggo emote. Now, on to Delta**. Look at Zero's passwords for Phi and Diana. I agree there's good odds Delta is Zero. I hope not. If current speculation about robot boy and actual Q is correct, I feel the old man in a wheelchair has to be 0 simply because of the lengths the game went to hide him from the player. In a way, us players are the morphogenetic field, so an actively hostile agent such as Zero II would take measures to hide himself from us. By the same measure, Delta has to be present here otherwise why even have neonate him exist. Thus, he has to be one of Junpei (lol no), Carlos (maybe), Eric (please no), robot boy (doubtful), or old man Q. Since apparently this fragment is gated behind a lot of other fragments, and old man Q is still speculation, I'd say that if old Q actually exists then he has to be Delta, and the locks on this fragment are to ensure we get to see newborn Delta before the eventual Q reveal but after the rest of this first section of fragments. If old man Q isn't a thing I'd point to robot boy as Delta then. There's precedent for robots designed in someone's likeness and the terminator from that fragment might be a copy of Yoko Taro head mask kid. **my first post in the thread I accidentally called Sigma Delta. I had no clue Delta was even going to be a
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 10:56
|
|
|
So that was certainly a lot. I'm pretty sure at this point that Delta is Real-Q (because why else would he be a thing, meta-wise), but as to whether he is also Zero...I think it's highly likely, but I wouldn't put it past the game to pull out some kind of extra twist. Although I think that would answer as to why he seemed so particularly spiteful to Diana following her giving the other teams a nice shower, compared to C-Team and Q-Team doing the same. Now that they have a form of physical time travel, as opposed to SHIFTing which is dependant on you being alive at a given point, then age really stops being a determining factor. If Delta is Zero he could could have been recruited by his own future self shortly after the latter acquires the transporter, then later used it to go back and begin putting his plan into place. That would mean there could be any number of duplicates of any range of ages running around, perhaps say with giant plastic spheres on their heads? I mean, it is less likely considering that he's probably a robot, but it would tie the kid-bot into the rest of the Players.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 10:58
|
|
|
Now I want to see the multi-generational rock band "Delta and the Deltas". I have a feeling most of the songs would be about calculus.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 11:24
|
|
|
In Proof, a mathematical play, a band plays a song called i where they play... absolutely nothing for three minutes. It's probably one of those kinds of bands.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 11:37
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 26, 2024 02:12 |
|
|
If Delta is Zero though, and Delta is the 'real Q'. That means Zero ensured he'd die in the timeline where his parents hosed. Which also raises a question. The game has a status screen, right?  It uses these images, though Q's hasn't been revealed, but, unless I'm mistaking it. Sigma, Diana, Phi and the middle one all look like... dolls of some kind. Like Phi's a little hard to tell.  But Q is also a doll, a Matryoshka. So if he's Delta he'd fit the 'Family Theme' wouldn't he? They're all dolls. Granted Junpei's ALSO a doll but that one's easily explained as his Akane stuff.
|
|
#
?
Jul 13, 2020 13:05
|
|