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Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

One Potato to rule them all,
One Potato to find them,
One Potato to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them.





Bread Liar

The sequels definitely suffered terribly from "exactly like before, but bigger and with bigger guns".

That's my biggest gripe with fan stuff which is 99.99999% variations on tie fighters, the Millennium Falcon or star destroyers. But fans aren't part of a multi billion dollar franchise.

The people who made the Hung Low dreadnought or super wide star destroyer or death star but it's a planet now lol had no drat excuse.

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Regarde Aduck
Oct 18, 2012

haha


Grimey Drawer

The dreadnaught was one of the ugliest ships in Star Wars, had one role that any star destroyer could perform better and was so badly armed that a small rag tag bomber squadron destroyed it

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:

Discovery at least represents more effort than a lot of the ship and fighter designs from the Star Wars sequels

That bar is like Kola Superdeep Borehole low.

My least favorite has to be the "get too close for no reason, bombs fall down in space" bomber from the opening of 8, although there a lot of choices.

Vernii
Dec 7, 2006



Regarde Aduck posted:

The dreadnaught was one of the ugliest ships in Star Wars, had one role that any star destroyer could perform better and was so badly armed that a small rag tag bomber squadron destroyed it

The thing I hate most about the dreadnought is there were interviews with the design team about how they were using real life battleships for inspiration, and then they produced something that looked like a slice of pizza instead.

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
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Crablettes: Eaten


Vernii posted:

The thing I hate most about the dreadnought is there were interviews with the design team about how they were using real life battleships for inspiration, and then they produced something that looked like a slice of pizza instead.

I feel like there's a 100% guarantee that there were at least 5 other, much better designs that were scrapped for whatever reason.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




I'm reminded of the Silver Crest or whatever it was called in The Mandalorian where everyone calls it out as an ancient POS which gets wrecked up all the time but it's still Mando's baby. (and apparently so old that most scanners don't even know what it is, so useful for a bounty hunter)

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



wdarkk posted:

I feel like there's a 100% guarantee that there were at least 5 other, much better designs that were scrapped for whatever reason.

The reason was not looking enough like a star destroyer.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


It's literally a more simplified star destroyer, practically deconstructed into just a flat triangle with a rectangle on top, and the only feature they added is the GIANT HOLE in the middle begging for people to attack it.

I think the issue is also intensified by how the space scenes kinda just have bad cinematography so they don't convey as much scale or movement.

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

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SlothfulCobra posted:

It's literally a more simplified star destroyer, practically deconstructed into just a flat triangle with a rectangle on top, and the only feature they added is the GIANT HOLE in the middle begging for people to attack it.

I think the issue is also intensified by how the space scenes kinda just have bad cinematography so they don't convey as much scale or movement.

That's my thinking, that the ship was designed based around the "needs" of the cinematography rather than vice versa.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Wait, what did they do to dreadnaughts? Cause that was a whole thing in the EU and i'm surprised they touched it.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




CainFortea posted:

Wait, what did they do to dreadnaughts? Cause that was a whole thing in the EU and i'm surprised they touched it.

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
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It has one main turret on the bottom and like twenty anti-starfighter turrets on top. It is some 5km long and has about as many total guns as on of the more upgunned correlian corvettes.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




wdarkk posted:

It has one main turret on the bottom and like twenty anti-starfighter turrets on top. It is some 5km long and has about as many total guns as on of the more upgunned correlian corvettes.

star destroyers are comically underarmed and oversupplied and it is very, very funny to me

THE BAR
Oct 20, 2011

You know what might look better on your nose?



Tulip posted:

star destroyers are comically underarmed and oversupplied and it is very, very funny to me

Well they're ostensibly carriers, and aren't supposed to do any kind of fighting on their own.

But that has never been a thing in the movies, books, or games.

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



Its not until the end of Jedi we see anything capable of even putting a scratch on them, it's quite possible capital ship combat wasn't a consideration when they were kitting them out.

Foxfire_
Nov 8, 2010



It's kind of a thing in Tie Fighter/X-Wing because if the capital ships were shooting at each other directly, there'd be nothing for the player to do. So they park out of laser range of each other and you intercept enemy bombers/launch torpedos yourself.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Tulip posted:

star destroyers are comically underarmed and oversupplied and it is very, very funny to me



60 turbolaser batteries, 60 ioncannon batteries would disagree!

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




THE BAR posted:

Well they're ostensibly carriers, and aren't supposed to do any kind of fighting on their own.

But that has never been a thing in the movies, books, or games.

That makes the imperial designers even bigger morons - this is all Legends stuff so RIP but according to what I can find, an ISD has about twice as much total ship volume dedicated to its main batteries as a WW2 battleship (the main cannons are basically the same but an ISD has 8 and a WW2 battleship would usually have four), but has fewer tie fighters than a WW2 aircraft carrier would have in fighters (72, compared to the USS Yorktown's 90).

Star Wars: there is always more and it is always worse.

Asterite34
May 19, 2009





I forgot about those!

"Hey Sal, the First Order wants the next bach of Star Destroyers to be, and I quote, "more masculine" or whatever."

"What the gently caress does that mean? It's a giant spaceship covered in lasers, not a mid-life-crisis Ferrari, what do they want us to do with that kind of design spec?"

"I dunno, ask the new Supreme Leader, his orders."

"New Supreme Leader? What happened to the old guy with the messed up face, dressed in gold lame?"

"Dead, now that weenie with the mask is in charge."

"Oh gently caress that guy. Guess we know what HE'S compensating for with his new big-dick spaceships."

"I know, right? ...Say, I got a funny idea for how to give him more "masculine" Star Destroyers. Let's just put a big honkin' dick on the undercarriage. Call it an 'orbital bombardment cannon' or whatever."

"Murray, you're a genius!"

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Tulip posted:

That makes the imperial designers even bigger morons - this is all Legends stuff so RIP but according to what I can find, an ISD has about twice as much total ship volume dedicated to its main batteries as a WW2 battleship (the main cannons are basically the same but an ISD has 8 and a WW2 battleship would usually have four), but has fewer tie fighters than a WW2 aircraft carrier would have in fighters (72, compared to the USS Yorktown's 90).

Star Wars: there is always more and it is always worse.

WW2 Aircraft carriers also couldn't field an infantry division with armored support.

MadDogMike
Apr 9, 2008

Can I come out and play?

Asterite34 posted:

Wasn't there some theory that the big catastrophe that wrecked the Klingons' moon and was the inciting incident for the plot of Star Trek VI was them screwing around with reverse-engineering Genesis and loving up Chernobyl style?

Praxis exploding was due to overmining according to the STVI dialogue; only official(ish) explanation for why they overmined I ever saw was the game Klingon Academy suggesting it was in response to losing their only other major dilithium source thanks to Yet Another Civil War. As canon as any video game, but given it was a pretty good story (AND they got Christopher Plummer to reprise his role as Chang to boot) I like to accept it anyway. Though while we're on the subject of Genesis, in the starting storyline of the game (where you're a Klingon at an elite captain's academy gaming out a war with the Federation as designed by Chang) the fake Federation war got ended by the Klingons hitting Earth with a Genesis device, which was pretty funny especially as it just destroyed the planet rather than remaking it; kind of shows how much the Klingons understood it beyond "scary Federation science!". Though after that fun experience slaughtering Starfleet you went into the aforementioned civil war slaughtering fellow Klingons, which goes to show where the real threat was.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




CainFortea posted:

WW2 Aircraft carriers also couldn't field an infantry division with armored support.

Right, that's extremely stupid.


Like, evaluated purely in terms of authorial intent with no concern for in-universe logic, there isn't really a problem with Star Destroyers. They're shaped like a big ol triangle because it's menacing and comes to a threatening spear point and you can frame a cool shot where they come in from above and behind the camera and they just keep going. They're a dull, white monochrome because it reinforces the storm troopers skeleton outfit and making them shiny would be both illegible on screen and also probably make them come across as like, luminous and good instead of stark and sepulchral and harsh. Plus those whites have a nice apollo project feel to them, very space age. It all visually conveys what the empire is about.

But we're in a thread for evaluating things on an in-universe logic, full of middle-aged online pedants. The basic problem for Star Destroyers is that, well, they're basically just triangles. Kind of the "thing" that makes a warship a warship is that the entire ship is wrapped around its primary weapon system. Triremes are built entirely around a ramming prow and the oar decks, 20th century battleships are really some engines and the main guns and then you just kind of squeeze in crew and secondary guns (e.g. AA) wherever they can fit, and aircraft carriers are basically just a runway that floats. Star Destroyers aren't really built around anything in that way. You could make a ship a fraction the size and crew of a Star Destroyer and have the same amount of guns, which really means that somebody who went out of their way to design a warship could easily outgun the Star Destroyer. Same for any of its other roles. With the implicit constraints that allow an ISD to be built in the first place, nearly anybody who wanted to could design a much deadlier ship.

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



They're not warships, they're mass-produced one-size-fits-all arms of the empire's power, a military base with engines strapped to the back.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Actually the guns/length ratio on all the capital ships in this book are very similar. Star Cruisers, ISDs , Nebulon-B frigates all have .04 guns/meter. Corellian Corvette has the same rate of gun emplacements per meter length, but their emplacements are double lasers so they are the most bang for your buck.

And if we're sticking in universe, no, no one could make a ship the fraction of the size and crew but with more guns because they control almost all of the shipyards. You're saying ISDs are bad at solving a problem that doesn't exist for the empire. Actually the star cruisers DO have a fraction of the crew and they don't field divisions of troopers either. And they have the same gun to size ratio. But they're also faster and more agile, so they're a lot closer to the whole "guns wrapped around engines" ideal.

Basically you don't need a WW2 battleship in space when everyone else is fielding PT boats and jeep carriers. What you DO need however is your own carrier that can also invade a planet.

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

One Potato to rule them all,
One Potato to find them,
One Potato to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them.





Bread Liar

Someone made a decent case once that star destroyers aren't primarily warships, but used as intimidation.

System acting up? Send in a pointlessly over-sized ship to loom over everyone. With thousands of troops capable of pacifying a civilian uprising and swarms of very simple fighter craft good for patrolling and maybe shooting up any cargo ships or other non-military vessels.

muscles like this!
Jan 17, 2005



Ghost Leviathan posted:

I'm reminded of the Silver Crest or whatever it was called in The Mandalorian where everyone calls it out as an ancient POS which gets wrecked up all the time but it's still Mando's baby. (and apparently so old that most scanners don't even know what it is, so useful for a bounty hunter)

It was funny when they crowd funded a fancy toy version of the Razor Crest between season 1 and 2 and then in season 2 they blew it the gently caress up totally and completely.

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


Star Destroyers explicitly replace the old Venator class, which carried about 420 (ha) starfighters on a smaller frame. I assume the tradeoff is in endurance: the Venator goes out, fights, comes back, but the Imperial-class spends a long time on station doing oppression.

EDIT: Legends section of wookiepedia (lol at this sourcing) says an Imperial II class can support its crew of 37,000 (!!!) and 9,700 troops for six years (!!!!) vs the Venator's 7,400 crew and 2,000 troops for two years.

Although why they need six years of supply on hand when the main base is only a couple days away at most is uh a mystery.

wdarkk fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Apr 8, 2021

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Star Destroyers are supposed to be a weird hybrid carrier/battleship combination. There's some EU fluff about how the whole point was so that they'd have easily manageable singular units to do all your oppression at once without having to manage a supply chain to keep it going. An uppity planet? Just send in a mobile oppression palace. Maybe a couple if they're armed.



It was also an administrative thing where they could keep a smaller amount of elite officers in line and if any of them did try going rogue, they've just got the one ship, with no real opportunity to take control of a larger fleet. That helped with the repeating theme of large singular targets getting destroyed by diverse groups of underdogs representing the larger population. Or really was more extrapolated after considering what kind of

Later wargames would identify that as a tactical issue and fill out fleets with various ships that in theory existed during the time of the movies just offscreen. Also games and stories would figure out smaller targets for smaller challenges. Sometimes they just grab something weird from the background or some artist's weird off-model choices and put some fluff around that.

PoptartsNinja
May 9, 2008

He is still almost definitely not a spy




Soiled Meat

It's a bureaucracy dodge.

The Empire's bureaucracy must be nightmarish, so if a captain wants to spend five years just quelling uprisings they can do just that (then spend the next year burning that sixth year of space food trying to convince the administration they need a total restock).

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





wdarkk posted:

Star Destroyers explicitly replace the old Venator class, which carried about 420 (ha) starfighters on a smaller frame. I assume the tradeoff is in endurance: the Venator goes out, fights, comes back, but the Imperial-class spends a long time on station doing oppression.

EDIT: Legends section of wookiepedia (lol at this sourcing) says an Imperial II class can support its crew of 37,000 (!!!) and 9,700 troops for six years (!!!!) vs the Venator's 7,400 crew and 2,000 troops for two years.

Although why they need six years of supply on hand when the main base is only a couple days away at most is uh a mystery.

Astrogation in Star Wars is dumb and complicated. Basically the more well traveled a route is, the faster you can go because there's more navigation data available so you can go faster. For example, Coruscant to Bespin is 6d14h base time. So if your hyperdrive multiplyer is x1, that's how long it takes you (assuming nothing goes wrong). However Coruscant to Alderaan is 16h, and Alderaan to Bespin is 8h for a total of 1d.

Double all those times for an ISD cause their multiplier is 2. Also the longest trip I can find is Lianna to Dagobah, which is 31d15h. gthe book also references that the Millenium Falcon could go across the galaxy in a straight line in 4 months. The falcon's multiplier is .5, so that's 16 months for an ISD. And that's impossible anyway because you can't just go across in a straight line.

Also ISDs would often escort freighters and poo poo. Also if they do get a damaged hyperdrive their backup drive is a x8. So yea an ISD could very well be gone for years at a time.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


If Star Wars had started out as a TV series, it would've used more implied transit time to pad out or pace things, but instead it was a media format that has to squeeze everything into two hours before it gets tedious, so people eventually extrapolated that into basically no transit times.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




wdarkk posted:

Star Destroyers explicitly replace the old Venator class, which carried about 420 (ha) starfighters on a smaller frame. I assume the tradeoff is in endurance: the Venator goes out, fights, comes back, but the Imperial-class spends a long time on station doing oppression.

EDIT: Legends section of wookiepedia (lol at this sourcing) says an Imperial II class can support its crew of 37,000 (!!!) and 9,700 troops for six years (!!!!) vs the Venator's 7,400 crew and 2,000 troops for two years.

Although why they need six years of supply on hand when the main base is only a couple days away at most is uh a mystery.

I think again just the people who made up star wars stuff didn't think. All of this is just greebles for the story of Anakin Skywalker and his kids. As long as it looks right on camera then it's ready to ship.

When the prequels didn't exist, the path of least resistance for Star Destroyers is to see them as converted cargo freighters rather than purpose built warships, given their massive freight capacity relative to their armament. But they're very shortly after, and with clear design continuity from, a very recent period of more intensive warfare, so that particular explanation makes little sense (and the thing its succeeding has, as you mentioned, a fraction of the crew and a multiple of the armament - a massively better warship). Also possible is that this is a case of graft or incompetence, Pentagon Wars times a thousand. Wouldn't be the first time a military deployed a weapon system that just loving sucked. Or, given that what we see of the Imperial Bureaucracy is dominated by preening petty tyrants, somebody high in the naval design bureau was utterly insistent that it's one thing to lose a warship due to battle damage but it's infinitely worse to lose it because its crew starved to death after only four years out of port.

A funny thing about the 6 years of supplies is that in fiction, the Battle of Yavin and the Battle of Endor are 4 years apart. And I dunno something is just very funny to me about the Battleship Yamato leaving port with 10 years of supplies.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Why would they not do the thing that works in order to make a ship that would be better at fighting ships that don't exist?

Cranappleberry
Jan 27, 2009


The worst garbage tech in scifi is in House M.D.

frogge
Apr 7, 2006




CainFortea posted:

Astrogation in Star Wars is dumb and complicated. Basically the more well traveled a route is, the faster you can go because there's more navigation data available so you can go faster. For example, Coruscant to Bespin is 6d14h base time. So if your hyperdrive multiplyer is x1, that's how long it takes you (assuming nothing goes wrong). However Coruscant to Alderaan is 16h, and Alderaan to Bespin is 8h for a total of 1d.

Double all those times for an ISD cause their multiplier is 2. Also the longest trip I can find is Lianna to Dagobah, which is 31d15h. gthe book also references that the Millenium Falcon could go across the galaxy in a straight line in 4 months. The falcon's multiplier is .5, so that's 16 months for an ISD. And that's impossible anyway because you can't just go across in a straight line.

Also ISDs would often escort freighters and poo poo. Also if they do get a damaged hyperdrive their backup drive is a x8. So yea an ISD could very well be gone for years at a time.

Where you getting those numbers from? One of the tabletop games or the star wars technical manual or something?

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





frogge posted:

Where you getting those numbers from? One of the tabletop games or the star wars technical manual or something?

2nd Edition TTRPG book.

Edit: The last good one.

Trapick
Apr 17, 2006




Cranappleberry posted:

The worst garbage tech in scifi is in House M.D.
I haven't watched much, but I saw one where this girl got smallpox (from buried treasure or something), except it ended up not being smallpox, but anyway they had a big lockdown and the CDC was called in and poo poo, which makes sense, that's fine. But then House ends up in the room with the girl to do something and then he's like "oh no I've been exposed to smallpox" and is clearly upset/scared, but he's definitely of an age where he would have been vaccinated. So what the poo poo was up with that? Apparently even vaccination *after* exposure is really effective, so he could have just got a booster and almost certainly have been fine. So why was House so worried?

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Trapick posted:

I haven't watched much, but I saw one where this girl got smallpox (from buried treasure or something), except it ended up not being smallpox, but anyway they had a big lockdown and the CDC was called in and poo poo, which makes sense, that's fine. But then House ends up in the room with the girl to do something and then he's like "oh no I've been exposed to smallpox" and is clearly upset/scared, but he's definitely of an age where he would have been vaccinated. So what the poo poo was up with that? Apparently even vaccination *after* exposure is really effective, so he could have just got a booster and almost certainly have been fine. So why was House so worried?

They also had the pure white room and cat suit for Wilson's gf to put her into stasis so she doesn't die (she dies)

Cranappleberry
Jan 27, 2009


Trapick posted:

I haven't watched much, but I saw one where this girl got smallpox (from buried treasure or something), except it ended up not being smallpox, but anyway they had a big lockdown and the CDC was called in and poo poo, which makes sense, that's fine. But then House ends up in the room with the girl to do something and then he's like "oh no I've been exposed to smallpox" and is clearly upset/scared, but he's definitely of an age where he would have been vaccinated. So what the poo poo was up with that? Apparently even vaccination *after* exposure is really effective, so he could have just got a booster and almost certainly have been fine. So why was House so worried?

ikr?

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Foxfire_
Nov 8, 2010



If I were trying to justify a Star Destroyer's numbers into making sense, I'd go with that they are primarily troop transport with a splash of point defense lasers and fighters. Their main intended role would be to park over rebellious planets and be a base for occupation and anti-insurgency. Size and endurance would be so you could have a base that's less bombable by locals than a ground base.

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