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SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Silver2195 posted:

Also, prior to ESB, there was actually no indication that Jabba was an alien.

I think there was plenty indication.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw1gkNd6Z_8

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Lazy Fair
Sep 23, 2019


Silver2195 posted:

A surprising amount has been written about this, e.g., http://jbr.me.uk/canon.html.

One of the most fun things to speculate about in this vein is the Clone Wars. Were they caused by a bunch of clones of an Emperor all claiming to be the real one, like the Time of Troubles in 17th-century Russia? Or did Obi-Wan Kenobi fight in them because he was a clone himself, who came out of Vat OB1?

Also, prior to ESB, there was actually no indication that Vader was human or that Jabba was an alien.

This is great, I particularly love the ideas Vader is an alien in an environmental suit and the Clone Wars might refer to some sort of imperial succession crisis with cloned Emperors.

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009




Taschen's Star Wars Archives book has an anecdote from someone who worked on the movie claiming the scene was cut because the actor they hired wasn't very good, even after reshooting the scene a couple of times. The alien Jabba may have just been devised to try to cover up his performance. The only draft of the script that mentions Jabba as specifically nonhuman was published in 1979, and it just has his mention as a "slug-like creature" tacked-on to the end of his description from earlier drafts. Han even calls him a human being in dialogue, which had to be recontextualized into an insult about humans themselves.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


It seems to me more like "this scene with Jabba was written and filmed but after it was cut from the movie the later movie didn't take it into consideration at all and designed a totally different Jabba from scratch". Maybe a novelization stuck it back in, the novelizations did a lot of weird stuff.

Like it's a cool thing that they could take the deleted scene and CGI it into fitting back into the rest of the canon, but even without the visual quality issues, Jabba's nothing like he was in the other movie. Deleted scene Jabba has a whole nice guy routine where he's paternalistic towards his victims and weirdly micromanages his subordinates. RotJ Jabba is a disgusting hedonist who openly murders peoples at parties and doesn't really seem inclined or even able to extract himself from his den of cronies to go make veiled threats in person.

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




Also in the deleted scene he's not horny even once

a kitten
Aug 5, 2006



Silver2195 posted:

A surprising amount has been written about this, e.g., http://jbr.me.uk/canon.html.

One of the most fun things to speculate about in this vein is the Clone Wars. Were they caused by a bunch of clones of an Emperor all claiming to be the real one, like the Time of Troubles in 17th-century Russia? Or did Obi-Wan Kenobi fight in them because he was a clone himself, who came out of Vat OB1?

Also, prior to ESB, there was actually no indication that Vader was human or that Jabba was an alien.

As a kid I read the novelisations (and/or comics) and they'd write R2D2 and C3PO as like: Artoo and Threepio, so I eventually started wondering if Obi-Wan was OB1?!... Old Ben #1

Which falls apart pretty quickly if you think about it, but I was pretty sure I was onto something

Barudak
May 7, 2007



OB1 being a clone name was a pretty popular fan theory, you weren't alone.

Megillah Gorilla
Sep 22, 2003

One Potato to rule them all,
One Potato to find them,
One Potato to bring them all
And in the darkness bind them.





Bread Liar

I can't remember if it was this thread where someone brought up the star destroyer so large that it launches regular sized star destroyers and is also a death star and was looking for an image of it. But I found one on Pinterest.




Pinterest is a hole I can lose myself in for an embarrassingly long time just looking at ridiculous nerd poo poo. I just wish it was easier to curate what it shows you, because looking at pictures of Mandalorians should not mean I really need to see pictures of female Japanese volleyball players' feet.


EDIT: but I would like to congratulate the All-Japan women's volleyball team for now being ranked sixth in the world by the FIVB. It looked like a hard few years.

Certainly sweaty.

Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 12:49 on Apr 17, 2021

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



Looks like that's part of an ILM Artstation challenge, so is fan art as hell, but it's pretty clearly inspired by some actual concept art done for The Force Awakens:

PoptartsNinja
May 9, 2008

He is still almost definitely not a spy




Soiled Meat

Speed holes make everything worse.

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



When Abrams started working on Star Wars, he was still finishing Star Trek Into Darkness, so there's definitely a point where he was all about speed holes on spaceships.

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


PoptartsNinja posted:

Speed holes make everything worse.

There's one fan Star Destroyer design that uses the big speed hole to launch and recover starfighters while the outside of the hull covers the launch bays from the front and sides. It seems to be well-liked by people who care about Star Destroyer design on the internet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAVC-8tR7EY

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


A roller coaster themed around an outer space vacation service that breaks down and goes horribly awry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWEdlLwvKOM

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




I'm reminded of a EU book I read in I think the Corellia trilogy where a smaller Star Destroyer had been mostly disarmed and turned into a cruise ship or something, and painted red. The owner of another ex-Imperial Star Destroyer was quietly jealous about it and had actually looked into getting his own ship painted, but found the only paint available in adequate quantities to do so was Imperial Grey, making him briefly wonder if the Emperor had been out just to piss him off the whole time.

That design looks like a cross between a Star Destroyer and the Trade Federation motherships.

fartknocker
Oct 28, 2012

Damn it, this always happens. I think I'm gonna score, and then I never score. It's not fair.




Wedge Regret

Sounds like Booster Terrikís Errant Venture, which was a full on Imperial II-class Star Destroyer but lacking most of the weapons. IIRC he did get painted red at some point, but was constantly having trouble finding parts to keep it running after a certain point.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




That's the one. And now I'm picturing a huge crappy old party ship with flaking red paint and jury-rigged repairs, because that is a hilarious idea.

Old starships do come up a lot in Star Wars, it's a bit of a point in The Mandalorian that the protagonist's ancient ship is useful for his work since as pre-Imperial surplus it doesn't fall under regulations regarding former Imperial or Rebellion vessels, and isn't an immediate target to either. Something similar probably goes for the Falcon.

ThisIsJohnWayne
Feb 23, 2007
Ooo! Look at me! NO DON'T LOOK AT ME!




Ghost Leviathan posted:

Old starships do come up a lot in Star Wars, it's a bit of a point in The Mandalorian that the protagonist's ancient ship is useful for his work since as pre-Imperial surplus it doesn't fall under regulations regarding former Imperial or Rebellion vessels, and isn't an immediate target to either. Something similar probably goes for the Falcon.

The scifi version of a 19th century black powder musket today

Solkanar512
Dec 28, 2006



Ghost Leviathan posted:

That's the one. And now I'm picturing a huge crappy old party ship with flaking red paint and jury-rigged repairs, because that is a hilarious idea.

Old starships do come up a lot in Star Wars, it's a bit of a point in The Mandalorian that the protagonist's ancient ship is useful for his work since as pre-Imperial surplus it doesn't fall under regulations regarding former Imperial or Rebellion vessels, and isn't an immediate target to either. Something similar probably goes for the Falcon.

Are there no private shipbuilders in the EU, or a Star Wars version of Anaheim Electronics that are either outside the Rebel/Imperial conflict or more likely just supply both sides anyway?

wdarkk
Oct 26, 2007

Friends: Protected
World: Saved
Crablettes: Eaten


Solkanar512 posted:

Are there no private shipbuilders in the EU, or a Star Wars version of Anaheim Electronics that are either outside the Rebel/Imperial conflict or more likely just supply both sides anyway?

Corellia was absolutely this in the EU but now IDK.

Vernii
Dec 7, 2006



Robot Style posted:

Looks like that's part of an ILM Artstation challenge, so is fan art as hell, but it's pretty clearly inspired by some actual concept art done for The Force Awakens:



As stupid as this concept is, it's at least distinctive. The end result was just a boring angular blob.



It's kind of amazing how the sequels dropped the ball on memorable ship designs. I think the only thing that stood out is Snoke's flagship, which does kind of neatly subvert the usual imperial aesthetic by going wide rather than long.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


There's a multitude of private ship companies, but generally if you want your products to be sold in places that follow a system of law, you gotta follow the regulations for their manufacture.

There was a whole thing where the Empire was taking direct control over a lot of corporations as part of its reign, like they confiscated the corporate holdings of the companies that were part of the CIS after the Clone Wars, and the Empire was trying to nationalize the Incom Corporation and the day before it happened as a big gently caress you a lot of the staff and scientists defected to the Rebellion and helped steal as many vehicles and factory equipment as they could (which is where X-Wings come from).

There was also a whole thing where the New Republic managed to take control over the company responsible for Star Destroyers by buying up the bulk of the shares from stockholders because they had become basically worthless while the Empire had total control over the company. So when the Imperial remnants slipped up the New Republic intimidated them into following their corporate rules despite the corporate headquarters being a total fortress.

Not ideologically satisfying, but kinda neat.

Powerful Two-Hander
Mar 9, 2004

Mods please change my name to "Tooter Skeleton" TIA.



Ghost Leviathan posted:

That's the one. And now I'm picturing a huge crappy old party ship with flaking red paint and jury-rigged repairs, because that is a hilarious idea.

Ahem.

theflyingexecutive
Apr 22, 2007




Solkanar512 posted:

Are there no private shipbuilders in the EU, or a Star Wars version of Anaheim Electronics that are either outside the Rebel/Imperial conflict or more likely just supply both sides anyway?

Theyíre explicitly shown in TLJ?

feedmegin
Jul 30, 2008




CainFortea posted:

But to your main point, while in WWII parts standardization is something we would laugh at today, US tanks and ships were generations of standardization ahead of the nazis.

Tanks, yes, and you've got like Liberty ships I guess. Major warships were about equally bespoke just about everywhere. You just don't mass produce something that large.

Of course the Empire does so they may well actually standardise things a lot more.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





feedmegin posted:

Tanks, yes, and you've got like Liberty ships I guess. Major warships were about equally bespoke just about everywhere. You just don't mass produce something that large.

Of course the Empire does so they may well actually standardise things a lot more.

You need standardization before you can do the mass production. You don't need mass production to do standardization. One of the reasons we could make 37 sherman tanks per every tiger tank is that standardization.

And while we didn't mass produce battleships (mainly because we had other priorities and air power was ruling the sea anyway), we could have because of that standardization.

The Empire fielded 25,000 ISDs. You don't get that in 20 years without parts standardization.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




CainFortea posted:

You need standardization before you can do the mass production. You don't need mass production to do standardization. One of the reasons we could make 37 sherman tanks per every tiger tank is that standardization.

And while we didn't mass produce battleships (mainly because we had other priorities and air power was ruling the sea anyway), we could have because of that standardization.

The Empire fielded 25,000 ISDs. You don't get that in 20 years without parts standardization.

This is very much begging the question. Whether or not the existence of 25k ISDs is enough to infer a specific industrial process rests on multiple other pieces of knowledge: is an ISD a fixed concept beneath its shape? Is 25,000 of them a particularly large number compared to the scale of the resources the empire can muster? Is the Empire even in a position to impose standardization on its local governors and contractors? There are a fairly wide variety of alternative explanations that are perfectly viable.

The question of imperial resources is one that I think this thread comes back to fairly frequently - like that question earlier about TIE Pilots. I personally think it's quite unclear what the Empire's ability to muster manpower really looks like - we basically know two things about the Imperial government: it lacks a bureaucracy and it is very unpopular, both things that tend to make it hard to get a large number of motivated soldiers. BUT we also know that the Empire is the largest polity in the galaxy, implying that the base they're working from is huge. BUT in the OT here are the non-ship spaces we actually see: Tatooine, Yavin IV, Hoth, Bespin, Dagobah, and Endor; Tatooine is the most urbanized of those and it is "Wyoming-esque" to be generous. BUT outside of those movies we do eventually see Coruscant and Naboo which seem pretty populated, and Alderaan is implied to be at least modestly populated (2 billion people is both an absolute shitload but Earth already has several times that and we're presumably quite a bit less advanced, I did check and Earth and Alderaan have drat near exactly the same size).

Anyway my point is that as hard as it is to talk about the physical science of Star Wars, the social science of Star Wars has if anything more gaps. Which is great if you want to write fanfiction tbh.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Well, we know there's like 4 ship yards the empire used. So if they're building 25k across 4 ship yards that very strongly suggests a specific industrial process. Especially if many of the parts are farmed out to other businesses.

Also I just thought of a relative way to check on parts standardization using my D6 book but i'm at work so it'll have to wait.

jeeves
May 27, 2001

Deranged Psychopathic
Butler Extraordinaire


You guys know itís now in canon that somehow-returned-Palpatine just simply willed stone into ships... or something.

Perfectly explains the 25K number of ISDs.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





jeeves posted:

You guys know itís now in canon that somehow-returned-Palpatine just simply willed stone into ships... or something.

Perfectly explains the 25K number of ISDs.

No, because we know they were made in shipyards. Because the books say they were made in shipyards.

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




If you think about it, all ships made out of metal are technically made from stone.

jeeves
May 27, 2001

Deranged Psychopathic
Butler Extraordinaire


Defiance Industries posted:

If you think about it, all ships made out of metal are technically made from stone.

Palpy just willed the whole stone to metal process to speed up! Such powers the dark side has!

Remulak
Jun 8, 2001

The four most over-rated things in life are champagne, lobster, anal sex and picnics. Oh, and that stupid children's book 'The Little Prince,' ugh.


Yams Fan

jeeves posted:

Palpy just willed the whole stone to metal process to speed up! Such powers the dark side has!
Taylorism reduced to its essence.

galagazombie
Oct 31, 2011


It is funny how the Prequels, for all the hate they get, spend the entire trilogy explaining the massive lengths and time investment it takes to create a military capable of waging a galactic war, a process which takes decades and tons of political maneuvering. Then the Sequels say that no, militaries capable of waging massive wars appear out of thin air, and this happens not once, not twice, but three times across the sequels.

jeeves
May 27, 2001

Deranged Psychopathic
Butler Extraordinaire


Honestly Timothy Zahn deserves a lot of credit for writing Thrawn as able to build a fearsome fighting machine out of a rag tag bunch of downtrodden Imperals without an Empire. Then his super weapon is a lot of slight of hand. Itís kind of amazing how much good writing counts versus the authors who followed him, including Kevin J. (ďthe J stands for Iím a lovely writer!Ē) Anderson and his INVINCIBLE SUN CRUSHER!!!!!!!!!

Talk about shittiest piece of garbage tech in all of science fiction.

PoptartsNinja
May 9, 2008

He is still almost definitely not a spy




Soiled Meat

jeeves posted:

including Kevin J. (ďthe J stands for Iím a lovely writer!Ē) Anderson and his INVINCIBLE SUN CRUSHER!!!!!!!!!

Talk about shittiest piece of garbage tech in all of science fiction.

But it's ok, because Kitt Cloudkicker... Kevin J. Durron... Kyp Anderson Han Solo's Teenage Buddy makes a face turn at the end and isn't held culpable for the billions of people he murdered with it. He doesn't even have to sacrifice himself to stop it, he just jams himself in a 'message torpedo' and bwoops the invincible starship into a black hole.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





jeeves posted:

Honestly Timothy Zahn deserves a lot of credit for writing Thrawn as able to build a fearsome fighting machine out of a rag tag bunch of downtrodden Imperals without an Empire. Then his super weapon is a lot of slight of hand. Itís kind of amazing how much good writing counts versus the authors who followed him, including Kevin J. (ďthe J stands for Iím a lovely writer!Ē) Anderson and his INVINCIBLE SUN CRUSHER!!!!!!!!!

Talk about shittiest piece of garbage tech in all of science fiction.

As an abstract thing the suncrusher was interesting, in that the hull was invulnerable but there always had to be some way of getting into the ship, so things like weapon turrets and engines would get crushed when it got yeeted into a sun or whatever.

But that's the only interesting thing about it.

Fantastic Foreskin
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.



galagazombie posted:

It is funny how the Prequels, for all the hate they get, spend the entire trilogy explaining the massive lengths and time investment it takes to create a military capable of waging a galactic war, a process which takes decades and tons of political maneuvering. Then the Sequels say that no, militaries capable of waging massive wars appear out of thin air, and this happens not once, not twice, but three times across the sequels.

They're both bad, in their own ways. Perhaps we just expected more out of movies when the prequels came out.

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




I don't think I've ever been as excited for anything as I was for episode one. After that I basically had no expectations for a movie.

Cracker King
Oct 14, 2006

You're not allowed to crumble unless I say so.

Didnít at least one Star Destroyer eat it in ESB after the battle of Hoth while navigating the asteroid field?

I forgot if it was due to rocks pulverizing the shield or as I vaguely recall just incompetent captains?

Why didnít the Rebels do what the Belters did in Expanse (essentially throw rocks)? They even have a major trope of protagonists levitating rocks!

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Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer




If you start asking questions like that you also have to ask why that asteroid belt, with so many asteroids so close together, isn't the industrial heart of the entire galaxy with Hoth as a 1940s Detroit in space

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