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Who will you vote for in 2020? This poll is closed. |
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|---|---|---|---|
| Biden |
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425 | 18.06% |
| Trump |
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105 | 4.46% |
| whoever the Green Party runs |
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307 | 13.05% |
| GOOGLE RON PAUL |
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151 | 6.42% |
| Bernie Sanders |
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346 | 14.70% |
| Stalin |
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246 | 10.45% |
| Satan |
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300 | 12.75% |
| Nobody |
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202 | 8.58% |
| Jess Scarane |
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110 | 4.67% |
| mystery man Brian Carroll of the American Solidarity Party |
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61 | 2.59% |
| Dick Nixon |
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100 | 4.25% |
| Total: | 2089 votes | ||
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Golbez posted:You say that like it was just a random war against a nice guy. Do you genuinely, within your heart of hearts, believe that Libya was toppled and turned into a slave market because the west just felt this overwhelming moral imperative to start bombing?
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Sep 25, 2020 06:17
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Golbez posted:You say that like it was just a random war against a nice guy. Wars aren't about "guys"
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Sep 25, 2020 07:06
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In the continuing saga of "maybe the devastating global pandemic would be handled better by someone who wasn't Donald Trump" https://twitter.com/donmoyn/status/1306614873502224385?s=20
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Sep 25, 2020 07:53
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Neurolimal posted:Do you genuinely, within your heart of hearts, believe that Libya was toppled and turned into a slave market because the west just felt this overwhelming moral imperative to start bombing? Again, y'all remember that there was a dictator brutally suppressing a popular uprising, right? The airstrikes didn't happen randomly or in a vacuum. I'm not an idiot who thinks the west went in purely out of the goodness of our hearts, (especially considering how we whistled inconspicuously while Bahrain and others did the same thing) but you seem to think it was 100% something that the US engineered.
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Sep 25, 2020 08:16
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Golbez posted:but you seem to think it was 100% something that the US engineered. The west saw an opening and went in, yes. "There's an uprising going on" isn't an excuse for other countries to start bombing. Breonna Taylor protests wouldn't give every other country moral cover to bomb the US. We weren't supposed to learn "the leader does bad things so we can destroy decades worth of infrastructure and send living conditions back to the stone age" when we did that to Iraq. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 08:25 on Sep 25, 2020 |
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Sep 25, 2020 08:23
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Golbez posted:Again, y'all remember that there was a dictator brutally suppressing a popular uprising, right? The airstrikes didn't happen randomly or in a vacuum. Adam Curtis reading this post and walking away mumbling "oh dear" to himself
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Sep 25, 2020 08:25
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Neurolimal posted:It's wild to me that there's people who insist that Biden will be better on foreign policy when he excretes these tweets at least once a week. Just the thinnest veneer from "the contras did nothing wrong". to be fair to projoes, if someone told Trump who contras are and what they did he would think they did nothing wrong too and probably openly complain how the modern liberal militaries aren't raping enough people to death
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Sep 25, 2020 08:36
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Golbez posted:Again, y'all remember that there was a dictator brutally suppressing a popular uprising, right? The airstrikes didn't happen randomly or in a vacuum. And if Gaddafi had successfully developed and held onto nuclear weapons, none of that would have mattered. So if we accept that Gaddafi being a brutal dictator was part of the decision to invade Libya, then we've reduced the number of countries that we've incentivized to develop a nuclear arsenal as fast as possible has just been reduced from "everyone" to "all brutal dictators", which is not exactly good. Now, someone could make the argument that incentivizing every brutal dictator in the world to speedrun their way to nuclear weapons is justified by how much better life got in Libya after Gaddafi, but, uhhhh, I wouldn't.
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Sep 25, 2020 08:36
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Neurolimal posted:The west saw an opening and went in, yes. "There's an uprising going on" isn't an excuse for other countries to start bombing. Breonna Taylor protests wouldn't give every other country moral cover to bomb the US. Yes, an opening. That means it wasn't the U.S. looking at Libya and randomly deciding, let's kill some Arabs. The last few posts seemed to think that after Gaddafi gave up his nuclear program, that was the only thing keeping us from bombing, and that the lesson brutal dictators should learn is not "not be a brutal dictator" but rather "be a dick as long as you don't give up your nukes." Eminai posted:And if Gaddafi had successfully developed and held onto nuclear weapons, none of that would have mattered. So if we accept that Gaddafi being a brutal dictator was part of the decision to invade Libya, then we've reduced the number of countries that we've incentivized to develop a nuclear arsenal as fast as possible has just been reduced from "everyone" to "all brutal dictators", which is not exactly good. Except this post, this is a better way of putting it. Golbez fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Sep 25, 2020 |
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Sep 25, 2020 08:40
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Golbez posted:Yes, an opening. That means it wasn't the U.S. looking at Libya and randomly deciding, let's kill some Arabs. The point of the initial post was that nukes, and the implication that a country might have nukes in development, protects states from existential threats (such as several western states getting in on some bombing fun). "Gadaffi was bad" doesn't disprove this. It's likely that we would have bombed Libya to aid the rebels no matter Gadaffi's quality of rule, provided he did not align with US interests. We have an enormous history of doing so to refer to. No, western states didnt start flying bombers over the femtosecond they learned that Libya had no nuclear weapons plan active. But it certainly made the decision to get in on some city-demolishing dead-simple when the oportunity arose. quote:The last few posts seemed to think that after Gaddafi gave up his nuclear program, that was the only thing keeping us from bombing, and that the lesson brutal dictators should learn is not "not be a brutal dictator" but rather "be a dick as long as you don't give up your nukes." This might work if we didn't have a history of couping and bombing states regardless of how their leaders ruled. The "get nukes for deterrance" message is far more reliable; the US has toppled plenty of good leaders, but zero nuclear states. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 09:00 on Sep 25, 2020 |
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Sep 25, 2020 08:57
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Yeah uhh the idea that the US only fucks over nations that are being ruled by brutal dictators is so far from reality that I can't understand how you'd even come to that belief. I don't see much evidence that there is really anything other than nuclear weapons that can protect you from the US.
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Sep 25, 2020 09:28
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Golbez posted:Again, y'all remember that there was a dictator brutally suppressing a popular uprising, right? The airstrikes didn't happen randomly or in a vacuum. Golbez posted:Again, y'all remember that there was a dictator brutally suppressing a popular uprising, right? The airstrikes didn't happen randomly or in a vacuum. Yeah, you're right. We did it as a favor for the French because we owed them one. Golbez posted:Yes, an opening. That means it wasn't the U.S. looking at Libya and randomly deciding, let's kill some Arabs. lol the lesson is "don't lose a die roll and get on America's bad side arbitrarily" but hey, open air slave markets, massive migration crisis into western europe: everyone got what they wanted in the end, didn't they?
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Sep 25, 2020 10:10
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After some consideration of US foreign policy and the people who run it, I have concluded that Iran should have nukes and that I wish them the best of luck in acquiring them.
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Sep 25, 2020 11:20
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RottenK posted:https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1309229177619578888 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932020_Nicaraguan_protests What would you call those people then?
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Sep 25, 2020 13:00
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I think it's ridiculous that Biden is more supportive of protestors in Nicaragua who are upset about getting murdered than he is protestors in Louisville who are upset about getting murdered. Wish he cared as much about defenders of human rights here at home, but those people he derides as violent anarchists since they can't provide a good ol' casus belli.
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Sep 25, 2020 13:42
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Wicked Them Beats posted:I think it's ridiculous that Biden is more supportive of protestors in Nicaragua who are upset about getting murdered than he is protestors in Louisville who are upset about getting murdered. No, you see, when they're overseas, they're protestors. When they're in America, they're radical anne tifas. Anyway, just checking in to the GE thread to let everyone know I've seen my second Joe Biden sign in Florida's 23rd District, one of the most reliably blue districts in the country. They are now tied with the number of Jo sign's I've seen, both of which are outmatched by Trump/Pence signs. This is the year we flip Florida blue!
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Sep 25, 2020 14:00
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One of my more rightward-leaning friends will not post political signs or answer surveys to avoid harassment. (I assume he gets this from how RWM boosts stories of stolen MAGA hats as if they were hate crimes.) I mean I guess it's possible (but not terribly) likely something similar is happening in Florida and you just have a bunch of shy Biden voters. But no I would not put money on that.
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Sep 25, 2020 14:16
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moths posted:One of my more rightward-leaning friends will not post political signs or answer surveys to avoid harassment. (I assume he gets this from how RWM boosts stories of stolen MAGA hats as if they were hate crimes.) If Florida CHUDs have shown me anything, it's that they actually thrive on that kind of "persecution". They loving live for it. They have a perpetual victim complex and will gladly put up a sign just so they can cry to WSVN about how the commie anne tifas are taking over their neighborhood.
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Sep 25, 2020 14:19
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RottenK posted:https://twitter.com/JoeBiden/status/1309229177619578888 I am not sure I understand the concern around this tweet. This reads to me as typical catholic bs. I assume this is an effort to showcase that he 'stands for something' which is funny on its own.
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Sep 25, 2020 14:32
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Marx Was A Lib posted:If Florida CHUDs have shown me anything, it's that they actually thrive on that kind of "persecution". They loving live for it. They have a perpetual victim complex and will gladly put up a sign just so they can cry to WSVN about how the commie anne tifas are taking over their neighborhood. I personally come across more lawn sign and t-shirt hesitation on the part of liberals who don't want to get their houses vandalized or get into weird confrontations. I bought my mom a HRC t-shirt in 2016 because she loved Hillary and she was terrified of wearing it at the nearby senior center because of how conservative some of the people there were. syntaxrigger posted:I am not sure I understand the concern around this tweet. This reads to me as typical catholic bs. I assume this is an effort to showcase that he 'stands for something' which is funny on its own. Depending on your view of his foreign policy history, this could be seen as a militant anti-Castro, pro-Guaido, and anti-Sandanista statement, which are all unpopular stances here. It seems to me more like a bit of pandering to certain Latino subgroups in the US who HATE SOCIALISM, which admittedly is not much better but I understand that he needs the votes.
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Sep 25, 2020 14:35
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Eric Cantonese posted:I personally come across more lawn sign and t-shirt hesitation on the part of liberals who don't want to get their houses vandalized or get into weird confrontations. Yeah, this tracks. And it's not a pretty picture that it paints lmao
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Sep 25, 2020 14:40
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GreyjoyBastard posted:In the continuing saga of "maybe the devastating global pandemic would be handled better by someone who wasn't Donald Trump" I remember talking to friends about this kind of idea back in late March when a few states began to shut down, then again when mask mandates when up a little later. It makes no sense to me that states wouldn't just do this on their own.
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Sep 25, 2020 14:53
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DarkCrawler posted:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932020_Nicaraguan_protests Parties to the civil conflict Protesters Students Movimiento 19 de Abril Private sector Superior Council for Private Enterprise  Sandinista Renovation Movement (MRS) Government of Nicaragua National Police of Nicaragua Sandinista National Liberation Front Sandinista Youth
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Sep 25, 2020 14:57
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It's amazing that Obama himself has talked of Libya as the biggest mistake of his presidency but there's still people who defend it.
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Sep 25, 2020 14:57
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joepinetree posted:It's amazing that Obama himself has talked of Libya as the biggest mistake of his presidency but there's still people who defend it. Not planning for the aftermath. He still thinks it was right to intervene.
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Sep 25, 2020 15:14
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Eric Cantonese posted:It seems to me more like a bit of pandering to certain Latino subgroups in the US who HATE SOCIALISM, which admittedly is not much better but I understand that he needs the votes. The funny thing is that latino communities virulently opposed to socialism typically dont vote Democrat. Cuban Americans, one of the most conservative red-baiting plantation-owning group of pricks you can think of, broke for Bernie in the primary in Florida long after the media wrote him off as nonviable. DarkCrawler posted:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932020_Nicaraguan_protests It's not a coincidence that he is calling out Nicaragua, Cuba, and Venezuela instead of Bolivia, Honduras, and Brazil. It's hispanic dogwhistling; signalling where he sits on the ideological divide (the same side as literally every previous president). Honduran protestors have been murdered en masse since the military first couped their center-left president. Anez of Bolivia gave police carte blanche to go wild on protestors after their military coup. Brazil is governed by a proud and open fascist who has let his country rot with COVID by denying that it even exists. Yet they are not the Threats To Democracy.
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Sep 25, 2020 15:14
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Golbez posted:Not planning for the aftermath. He still thinks it was right to intervene. Yeah. But by the way, the claim you made about an upcoming massacre is bogus and has been debunked several times. https://www.salon.com/2016/09/16/u-k-parliament-report-details-how-natos-2011-war-in-libya-was-based-on-lies/ Golbez posted:Again, y'all remember that there was a dictator brutally suppressing a popular uprising, right? The airstrikes didn't happen randomly or in a vacuum. so: quote:The Libya inquiry, which was launched in July 2015, is based on more than a year of research and interviews with politicians, academics, journalists and more. The report, which was released on Sept. 14, reveals the following: Now, of course, France was the main country pushing for it. But it wouldn't have happened if the US didn't get Russia to abstain in the UN security council.
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Sep 25, 2020 15:31
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Neurolimal posted:This might work if we didn't have a history of couping and bombing states regardless of how their leaders ruled. The "get nukes for deterrance" message is far more reliable; the US has toppled plenty of good leaders, but zero nuclear states. RottenK posted:After some consideration of US foreign policy and the people who run it, I have concluded that Iran should have nukes and that I wish them the best of luck in acquiring them. Yeah for any non-nuclear country, getting nukes is absolutely the best possible option for them in terms of maintaining their independence and self-rule. Imo being against nuclear proliferation is essentially supporting permanent US hegemony, or I guess superpower hegemony in general. The USA has shown over and over that it's the only way to avoid being hosed with whenever we feel like it. There is no way, ever, that the nuclear genie is going back in the bottle, so the only equalizer is for every country to have them. In conclusion, Skull Face Was Right.
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Sep 25, 2020 17:12
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i am the bird posted:I remember talking to friends about this kind of idea back in late March when a few states began to shut down, then again when mask mandates when up a little later. It makes no sense to me that states wouldn't just do this on their own. Neither of America's neoliberal parties want people to think that the government can or will do things that help them.
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Sep 25, 2020 17:54
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Complications posted:Neither of America's neoliberal parties want people to think that the government can or will do things that help them. Yeah, that particular article is about republicans scrapping a plan they came up with. Democrats didn't even get that far. New York and New Jersey are comfortably in the lead in deaths per million. Sao Paulo in Brazil is getting ready to vaccinate people in late December and here we are talking about 2nd quarter next year...
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Sep 25, 2020 18:42
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In which Ezra Klein embraces accelerationism: https://twitter.com/ezraklein/status/1309549077999153152?s=19
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Sep 25, 2020 18:50
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rscott posted:In which Ezra Klein embraces accelerationism: This seems like the most lukewarm possible take that we're either going to change how our government works or face minority (and probably explicitly apartheid) rule. How is acknowledging that reality accelerationism?
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Sep 25, 2020 19:02
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The Oldest Man posted:This seems like the most lukewarm possible take that we're either going to change how our government works or face minority (and probably explicitly apartheid) rule. How is acknowledging that reality accelerationism? Did you read the article? quote:What sets him apart is his fulsome embrace of those forces, his willingness to cut through the cant and pretense of American politics, to stand athwart polarization yelling, “Faster!”
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Sep 25, 2020 19:07
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Raskolnikov38 posted:whoa whoa whoa it was not unilateral, Trump had plenty of help blowing up the deal when democrats reimposed sanctions on Iran in order to get some (that trump didn’t even enforce lol) against Russia. He used the sanctions as part of his excuse to not recertify the deal and again later when he killed it formally Love that the most consistent discussion flow is when Person A claims that Trump/Republicans are solely responsible for some horrible policy, Person B then explains that no, the Dems actually overwhelmingly supported it as well, if not actually began the policy under Obama. Even if Person A then concedes that Trump/the GOP aren't uniquely horrible about that one policy, they never take the next step and realize that most policy issues have a horrifying Republican and Democrat consensus. RottenK posted:After some consideration of US foreign policy and the people who run it, I have concluded that Iran should have nukes and that I wish them the best of luck in acquiring them. Matt and Virgil from Chapo went on the Skullduggery podcast (part of Yahoo News) last year and said Iran has a moral imperative to obtain nukes, to the chagrined lib hosts. America has given countless object lessons to the world that your country should strive to develop nukes. It's like an inverse moral hazard problem; if you don't have nukes, the US will say you're trying to develop them to invade you (since it wouldn't be feasible to invade a country that has nukes), so your only option is to obtain them as quickly as possible.
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Sep 25, 2020 19:26
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Cease to Hope posted:This isn't true, and I think you (and many others!) think this way because even politically-activated people are only really interested in changes that are news. The difference is that Republicans tighten the austerity and bigotry noose tighter and faster than even the shittiest centrist Democrats, often as not in ways that aren't sexy to pundits and likely to be discussed on Twitter. An example I have to deal at work basically daily: Trump has tightened CDRs for SSDI every year on the year, which has the end result of kicking disabled people off of both federal support and state support keyed to qualifying for federal support. He's going to keep doing that if he's re-elected, and it's going to continue to kill disabled people even in a good year. It's the other way around - your reasoning relies upon completely ignoring/omitting everything we do outside US borders (or to people who try and enter the US) and also ignores/omits the fact that the vast majority of people who live in poverty, suffer under our criminal justice system, etc do so due to a bipartisan consensus (and I'm also generously ignoring climate change here, because factoring that in would basically eclipse everything else). I'm not denying Republicans/Trump do this stuff (and I wouldn't fault anyone for voting due to either them or someone they know being affected). But it's part of a long history of both parties agreeing that it's fine for countless millions of people to have their lives ruined. For every person affected by something unique to Trump/Republicans, there are many more who are affected by actions/policies that are supported (or at least not opposed) by nearly the entire US political establishment. Basically people generally ignore anything not involving US citizens (unless it has a directly partisan cause) and don't think of the vast majority of people in poverty, in prison, who die/suffer due to lack of healthcare, etc as something that our government is responsible for (because those things have just sort of been normalized such that people only factor them in when they've been recently changed).
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Sep 25, 2020 19:26
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rscott posted:Did you read the article? Did you read the article? quote:Under McConnell, the Senate has been run according to a simple principle: Parties should use as much power as they have to achieve the outcomes they desire This is really the entire point of the article and the heart of what the author terms "McConnellism" is just the actual exercise of political power, and not the farcical shell game we've gotten used to in America.
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Sep 25, 2020 20:09
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Pentecoastal Elites posted:Did you read the article? Not sure how that refutes what I'm saying at all when the whole thesis is that McConnell's malfeasance is necessary to reform the institution despite the pain and suffering it has caused.
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Sep 25, 2020 20:13
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This whole thing is a poo poo show. No wonder no one wants to vote any more. I don't really like ether side. its really just voting to ensure the person you hate doesn't get elected. its not about how good the person would be running the place. I feel that none of the current presidential candidates could run a candy shop very well. At this point, we should just all vote for Howie Hawkins, just to mix things up
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Sep 25, 2020 20:39
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rscott posted:Not sure how that refutes what I'm saying at all when the whole thesis is that McConnell's malfeasance is necessary to reform the institution despite the pain and suffering it has caused. Which is -- totally aside -- something that really bugs me about this thread. In the absence of any political opportunities, the way things reach a critical point where the working class revolts is through material immiseration. It's not bad to point this out; it's not being "accelerationist". An accelerationist would say "we all have to vote for Trump in order to make things as bad as possible as quickly as possible because the opportunity for revolution is here due to X, Y and Z", which is something precisely no one has done in this thread to date.
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Sep 25, 2020 20:41
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Here's an idea: Don't save the Senate.
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Sep 25, 2020 20:50
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