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Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

That episode was what turned the series from great to amazing for me.

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Goblin Craft
Feb 12, 2002



Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Yeah, expect things to only ramp up until the season finale, you're in for a ride. Eagerly looking forward to your post, The_Doctor

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007






Action Jacktion posted:

You're coming to another point where episodes were shown out of order: Originally episode 318 "Walkabout" was supposed to air right after episode 315 "Interludes and Examinations". It doesn't make a big difference but that was the original order.

It's definitely not a big deal but I think I'd prefer watching in the intended order over what we got.

CaptainPsyko
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.


ultrafilter posted:

It's definitely not a big deal but I think I'd prefer watching in the intended order over what we got.

Disagree. With the way the tension of the primary arc is built, I feel like having Walkabout’s shift of focus as a -not a reset, but really more of a way to make the audience stew - is really helpful.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


S3ep15 - Interludes and Examinations

You do not understand. But you will.

KOSH NOOOOO

The Shadows are openly attacking now - what’s their plan? Even Sheridan says he doesn’t know what they want. I guess sow chaos and keep all the races from aligning together, but to what end?

Oh no, Morden and the Shadows! Morden comes in on a transport (judging by the large number of other passengers), so it again begs the question, how are the Shadows following him around? They’re really not small beings. Do they fold up small into his luggage?

I’d forgotten Londo’s love was named Adira, I’ve gotten used to the ST: Discovery character by that name, so it threw me for a moment. Oh Londo, that’s some horrible payoff for daring to be happy for a moment. You know what will happen. Lashing out like that is going to help no-one. gently caress the galaxy, though. All those trillions of people can die because you’ve been hurt. My heart breaks for him though, he was so excited.

The Franklin stim plot resurfaces here, with additional Franklin-dadbod (pecs but belly is an odd look, I gotta say). Quitting your job feels like overkill rather than getting help to overcome an addiction, but, sure, take whatever time you need.

Oof, the in person Kosh-Sheridan scene! There’s a lot to unpack there, starting with Kosh’s interesting choice of words to describe Sheridan. Impudent, disrespectful. Those are the words you use for a naughty child. Kosh says ‘it is not our time’. So when is their time? Are the Vorlons waiting it out till much further along in the war so they can swoop in like the big daddy race saving all the younger children?

There’s a reflection in that later on when Kosh is being attacked and appears to Sheridan as his father. The idea of Kosh being afraid and wishing he’d told Sheridan more is oddly touching, considering how much he hid behind/in his cryptic encounter suit. The shot of his damaged helmet on Sheridan’s desk is definitely haunting, but I’m more crazy intrigued by the idea that the Vorlons are just going to send another ‘Kosh’ to cover up the fact that he died. Are they going to be called Kosh too, as a cover identity? How will that work? What’s going to happen with Lyta, and where is she?

The Vorlon fleet coming through was pretty spectacular and I could honestly have watched more of that battle, but it was probably hella expensive at the time. Hopefully this means the Vorlons will be more on the offensive if needed, rather than sitting on the sidelines watching the younger races get decimated.

Kosh’s ship doing a sundive as a form of viking funeral as it mourns for its owner is a moving moment and tribute to B5’s most wonderfully cryptic character. Fantastic stuff.

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

Rise and shine, master leprechaun.





My god there's no way to talk about that post without the potential for spoiling something.

I'm doing my best but Attn the_doctor: DO NOT READ THIS SPOILER

yeah I think we'll keep this in the other thread

Somebody fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Feb 13, 2021

Polaron
Oct 13, 2010

The Oncoming Storm


ikanreed posted:

[Snipped]

Don't do this. Go to the main thread in TV IV if you can't keep it in your pants.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk


Polaron posted:

Don't do this. Go to the main thread in TV IV if you can't keep it in your pants.

Yep, keep this thread ultra clean plz

CaptainPsyko
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.


Re: Morden’s handlers, for all intents and purposes, just think of them as being incorporeal beings; (or at least, beings with the ability to become essentially incorporeal at will). They’re ghosts - shadows if you will. They aren’t just invisible - they literally are physically not there..

(The actual mechanics of this are mostly the stuff of EU nonsense and RPG sourcebooks and mostly don’t matter. All you really need to know for now is what you’ve seen.)

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


I'll do 3x18 next then, since that's what was intended.

Sanguinia
Jan 1, 2012

#RXT REVOLUTION~!
2000





The_Doctor posted:

S3ep15 - Interludes and Examinations


"You've been teaching me to fight legends? WELL YOU'RE A LEGEND TOO!"

Doctor Zero
Sep 21, 2002

Would you like a jelly baby?
It's been in my pocket through 4 regenerations,
but it's still good.

oh yeah? Well UP YOURS

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


Sanguinia posted:


"You've been teaching me to fight legends? WELL YOU'RE A LEGEND TOO!"


Kosh:

ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007






Doctor Zero posted:

oh yeah? Well UP YOURS

Sanguinia posted:


"You've been teaching me to fight legends? WELL YOU'RE A LEGEND TOO!"


Just imagine Sinclair trying to pull that conversation off.

CaptainPsyko
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.


ultrafilter posted:

Just imagine Sinclair trying to pull that conversation off.

Probably the best piece of evidence that the end of year 1 ‘recast’ was absolutely the best thing that happened to the show.

VinylonUnderground
Dec 14, 2020

by Athanatos


CaptainPsyko posted:

Probably the best piece of evidence that the end of year 1 ‘recast’ was absolutely the best thing that happened to the show.

The very V: The Series plotline from the original Key script would have made a lot of things happen differently. Trap doors are one thing but that's a big big door.

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk


wrong thread, sorry

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Feb 14, 2021

Zorak of Michigan
Jun 10, 2006

Waiting for his chance

E: Wrong thread, to my shame.

Zorak of Michigan fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Feb 14, 2021

sebmojo
Oct 23, 2010


Legit Cyberpunk


wrong thread, sorry

vvv yeah sorry, i didn't notice. I edited Zorak's post and deleted mine. vvv

sebmojo fucked around with this message at 23:00 on Feb 14, 2021

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007





Remember this is the blind watch thread.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


S3ep18 - Walkabout

And so it begins.

Lyta’s back! Franklin’s stand-in doctor said ‘By the the time we were called in, it was too late.” Delenn asserted they wouldn’t find a body, so why were they even called? “Yep, definitely no body left in this suit.”

The Vorlon ship rising up to meet Sheridan is a hell of a shot. I wonder if Sheridan understood the message that flashed up on the hull.

Oh no, they’re eating the Breen from DS9! I guess they’re delicious under those suits. The nugget that all races have something akin to Swedish meatballs smacked very strongly of the gin and tonics bit from Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. Maybe it’s also a sign of manipulation of the younger races by one of the older ones. Do the Vorlons eat? Did they create IKEA?

I really like the new Vorlon encounter suit, and the more aggressive tone of New Coke Kosh is an interesting departure. There’s a lot of fascinating subtext between Kosh 2 and Lyta. Kosh could impart some of himself to her? Carrying him around in her head, presumably, which explains what the eyes/mouth strings of light we saw that one time. And I guess while she didn’t get a bit, Sheridan still has some essence de Kosh rattling around inside his noggin. Kosh’s final words to Sheridan were “As long as you’re here, I’ll always be here.”

We get a fair bit of info about the Vorlons in this episode. They’re incredibly long lived (maybe even immortal?), there’s not that many of them, and it’s been so long since one of them died, Kosh’s death has given the entire race a bit of a wobble. We know they’re telepathic, so is the statement ‘We are all Kosh’ indicative of some kind of hive mind? Presumably not full on Borg hive mind, but maybe a connected consciousness that all Vorlon are aware of on some level. Presumably such a thing would let them feel the death of Kosh all the more keenly and pretty much instantly (as last episode stated). The Vorlons are the most alien race in B5, and I love it.

Cailyn’s song is some terrible easy listening dross. Was it allowed to play so long to pad out the episode? I hope Franklin didn’t pay a lot for his half glass of chocolate milk. Also, she appears to be doing fine all by herself (deadly condition aside), what exactly is it you think she needs, Franklin? What are you trying to fix here? How’s that saviour complex working for you? Franklin’s Foundationism is curious (I’m reading it as ‘religion’ here, rather than foundationalism, the philosophy concept of ‘I think therefore I am’), utilising the walkabout concept from Australian Aboriginal people. Is it a piecemeal religion cherrypicking bits and pieces from all sorts of cultures?

CAPTAIN’S LOG ALERT. Having Sheridan pulling that trope raised a smile. I feel like Lyta is above a P5 rating now from her time spent with Kosh and among the Vorlons. The battle is short, but fraught. I’m curious as to why the Minbari cruiser didn’t fire at all when its telepaths were holding off the other Shadow vessels. But it was good to see that not just the Narn joined the fray, but a number of the League too. Strength in numbers and unity chases the Shadows away.

Zaroff
Nov 10, 2009

Nothing in the world can stop me now!

The_Doctor posted:

S3ep18 - Walkabout
Cailyn’s song is some terrible easy listening dross. Was it allowed to play so long to pad out the episode?

IIRC JMS wrote that song himself, so I suspect he wanted to get as much airtime as he could with it...

Goblin Craft
Feb 12, 2002



The_Doctor posted:


Franklin’s Foundationism is curious (I’m reading it as ‘religion’ here, rather than foundationalism, the philosophy concept of ‘I think therefore I am’), utilising the walkabout concept from Australian Aboriginal people. Is it a piecemeal religion cherrypicking bits and pieces from all sorts of cultures?


Not a spoiler per se, so short answer, yes. There is a longer answer but that's pretty much what it boils down to.

VinylonUnderground
Dec 14, 2020

by Athanatos


Zaroff posted:

IIRC JMS wrote that song himself, so I suspect he wanted to get as much airtime as he could with it...

It reminds me of the Orville episode with a similarly indulgent song. It's not like what's-his-face is better but it turns out that when JMS gives his "true emotions" about "romance" not limited to but especially through music it is really, really bad. B5 is well before TV became the new "pronounced with a hard "C" "Kinema" but through his wacky engagement with fans during the usenet era he was very much a "presence".

Anyway, the Family Guy did a song from a movie not enough people have seen but, you know, it starred Mia Fallow (at her most Hollywood backed stage of her career) and Jeff Bridges while featuring Christopher Lee and Angela Landsberry so there is a lot of quality control going on. It is a fine song and a loving gutpunch to a certain segment of the population. JMS -- he writes his own song because he marches to the beat of his own drum and his queen will come along.

The_Doctor
Mar 29, 2007

"The entire history of this incarnation is one of temporal orbits, retcons, paradoxes, parallel time lines, reiterations, and divergences. How anyone can make head or tail of all this chaos, I don't know."


S3ep16 - War Without End - Part 1

I’ll be in the car.

Minbar! Looking all very Mass Effect, putting me strongly in mind of Thessia, the Asari homeworld. OH poo poo SINCLAIR! Hmm, 900 year old messages written in English?

Was that Kosh 2 on Minbar? Or another Vorlon?

And messages from future Ivanova? Looks like time travel is back on the menu, boys! So we’re doing the other half of Babylon Squared, filling in the gaps of that story. And we’re getting it laid on pretty thick here that Sinclair is destined to become the Minbari mythical figure Valen. Minbari not born of Minbari, appeared from nowhere a thousand years ago, B4 needed in that war, etc.

It’s weird Marcus treats Sinclair like he’s a grand master sensei when Sinclair has only on Minbar for about 18 months, 2 years tops. His whole zen monk-like demeanour is very different from how we last saw him as commander of B5. If he’d been away for 10 years or something, it would have made more sense.

Ivanova’s final message of the Shadow invasion of B5 is pretty chilling. Presumably things can be changed, since we’ve already seen that Sinclair is (probably) not going to be there now, as in Garibaldi’s original vision from Babylon Squared.

Lucy and Ethel is a weird deep cut, but ok.

Being unstuck in time is an unexpected wrinkle, and I’m surprised to see the unexpected return of Future Emperor Londo. This feels almost like a side-step to the vision Londo saw of himself on the throne, along with the Shadow ships flying overhead. Londo being much older and greyer makes me wonder how long the effects of the Shadow war will last. Yes it’s over, but there’s always fallout.

Zathras is such a fun character and I’m glad he’s back. Poor, put upon Zathras.

Really looking forward to part 2!


skull mask mcgee
Nov 14, 2016



ultrafilter
Aug 23, 2007






Because the last four episodes of season two were delayed, the schedule for season 3 ended up getting messed up as well. If the episodes had been broadcast in the intended order, there would've been a roughly half-year wait between the two halves of the two-parter, and the fans would've revolted. That's why 318 got moved.

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

Rise and shine, master leprechaun.





nobody ever listens to zathras

Narzack
Sep 15, 2008


Oh, snap, i just found this thread, having just finished episode 3.17.

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!



Narzack posted:

Oh, snap, i just found this thread, having just finished episode 3.17.

Welcome aboard!

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


Narzack posted:

Oh, snap, i just found this thread, having just finished episode 3.17.

Do some posting about your thoughts!

VinylonUnderground
Dec 14, 2020

by Athanatos


Don't post a thing until you hit episode 4.20

Jedit
Dec 10, 2011

Proudly supporting vanilla legends 1994-2014



VinylonUnderground posted:

Don't post a thing until you hit episode 4.20

This is a 420 joke, and not anything specific about S4E20. Please ignore the troll.

Narzack
Sep 15, 2008


It's funny that you have to clarify, because I briefly posted in the B5 thread in TVIV a while back, but they couldn't stop being spoilery. But, anyway, I started watching a year or so ago, and ended up taking a big break somewhere in season 2. And, I loved it from the start. The reason I started watching it is that someone told me that it was conceived and written with an end in mind, which I think is tremendous. I've never really had a problem with media aging, so the old CG hasn't bothered me or anything. I really liked seeing the makeup change from Gathering to Season 1, the chincy-ness of G'kar's makeup and Delenn, especially.

One thing that I really like about it, especially compared to another favorite, BSG 2003, is just how hopeful it is. Sure, there's a huge war boilling up and Centauri subjugating the Narn but there is still a sense of joy and goodnaturedness in the whole affair. Which may be a result of the show being unafraid to have their characters be good guys, which is refreshing. They're not perfect, but they're trying their best to do the right thing. As I said, refreshing. Like, during the opening credits I think, I love that guy, and that guy, and her, too! I just like all the characters, though I think Garibaldi might eke out the top spot. What follows is mostly disjointed and unorganized thoughts.

Some season 1/2 talk

I really liked Sinclair. Maybe it was because he started out the show, but I liked him a lot, and was bummed when he was reassigned. But, I also like Sheridan a lot, so that's alright. I don't remember a lot of what happened with the first four Babylon stations, other than B4 skipping around in time. Were a couple sabotaged? I think the only episode that I didn't care for was that one where Garibaldi's friend comes to the station to fight in some alien kumite. It might have my favorite episode so far, the one where the aliens all contract that disease and the entire race dies off. That poo poo was ballsy as hell. I do miss the old corny B5 theme from the first season, too. Oh well. Also, why was Wayne Keffer(was that his name?) in the opening credits? Did he do anything apart from that bit at the end of S2?

Season 3 up through 19

Holy gently caress, this poo poo kicks into overdrive, huh? I'm kinda warming on Bester, Morden can eat my butt. It's getting hard to like Molari, but Vir is still fantastic. Even when dealing with his horrible slaveowner-type almost-wife. But it seems like she can be rehabilitated, so that's nice. I liked Talia Winters a lot more than Lyta Alexander, but whatever. It was good seeing Sinclair come back and do his Valen thing, what a great payoff for the dude. Kosh's death scene was really, really good. Very clever and I liked it a lot. Glad Zack Allen shook off the chains of the Night Watch, I like that dude, too. G'kar continues to show his mettle and growth, and I enjoy his scenes with Garibaldi. Plus, when Garibaldi got all fired up about Sinclair getting no backup from from the Narn battleship, that was good poo poo. Often with this show, you'll get a scene that kinda just makes your heart surge or skip or whatever, and it happened when G'Kar blasted out of hyperspace to gently caress up a Shadow ship.

"And I brought friends."

poo poo, just got goosebumps again.

I hope Doctor Franklin gets the help he needs, the station can't lose him for long.

I like that new Starfury design, I'd like to see more of it. Also, I dig the new non-EA uniforms the crew got.

Oh, poo poo, how could I forget about Ivanova's date night! And then when she chucks the flowers at Marcus, great stuff. Speaking of, while he's not precisely a perfect fit for the crew, I like his addition, too. He brings a lightness and irreverance that I can get behind. Plus, he reminds me of the Sheriff of Rottingham from Men in Tights.



But, yeah, blah blah blah, great show, I disagree with people that say it's aged poorly( I kinda disagree with that entire premise, in fact).

MrL_JaKiri
Sep 23, 2003

Ask me about my calm and reasonable opinions on cycling!

I am in no way a zealot about cycling!

Cycling helmets are ABSOLUTE HARAM!


S1/S2 talk:


The first three were sabotaged, Warren Keffer was included because the studio forced them to include a hotshot pilot character (who was, of course, unceremoniously killed off)


Sinclair actor talk:

It has come out since his death that Michael O'Hare had paranoid schizophrenia, which understandably made it rather taxing to play a character who has had his memory erased and is being potentially manipulated by aliens.

On a lighter note, here's a cool interview with him, which I'm pretty sure doesn't have anything in it you won't have encountered but leave it for later if you want to play it safe! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pR5IuVptRw

Whybird
Aug 2, 2009

Phaiston have long avoided the tightly competetive defence sector, but the IRDA Act 2052 has given us the freedom we need to bring out something really special.

https://team-robostar.itch.io/robostar




Nap Ghost

It always entertained me how the restriction on TKO was "no humans". Like, every single other alien race was fine, but humans specifically weren't allowed to play. It's as if the international wrestling community all unanimously agreed that the Welsh weren't allowed to take part.

Eighties ZomCom
Sep 10, 2008






Whybird posted:

It always entertained me how the restriction on TKO was "no humans". Like, every single other alien race was fine, but humans specifically weren't allowed to play. It's as if the international wrestling community all unanimously agreed that the Welsh weren't allowed to take part.

Lol, yeah. Like I could get behind it if they called Walker out on the real reason he wanted to join the kumite and refused him based on that or if there was some formal process he had to go through and he hosed it up or ignored it, but as it is, it's a bit odd.

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

Rise and shine, master leprechaun.





Whybird posted:

It always entertained me how the restriction on TKO was "no humans". Like, every single other alien race was fine, but humans specifically weren't allowed to play. It's as if the international wrestling community all unanimously agreed that the Welsh weren't allowed to take part.

So it's a stretch but there's a way to make that make sense.

Did you know that human skeletal muscles(i.e. normal muscles) are missing a key protein present is most other land mammals? There's a hypothesis that it got selected out to make the jaw smaller, allowing for bigger brains.

In general our strength to muscle mass ratio is much lower than a chimpanzee's.

So maybe humans are the only species with that weakness, hence lenier casually lifting a 200 pound guy off the ground with one arm

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CaptainPsyko
May 2, 2004

We're Gonna Run.

We're Gonna Crawl.

Kick Down Every Wall.


Whybird posted:

It always entertained me how the restriction on TKO was "no humans". Like, every single other alien race was fine, but humans specifically weren't allowed to play. It's as if the international wrestling community all unanimously agreed that the Welsh weren't allowed to take part.

I don’t think it’s just “no humans” - I always got the impression that it’s more “only these species that have historically been part of fight club may join fight club”.

Like, they’d probably have the same reaction to a Centauri walking in.

After Smith wins, it’s explicitly announced that going forward, Humans would be welcome - by winning the challenge, he’s earned ‘induction’ for the species as a whole.

Edit: yeah, from the admittedly questionable wiki:

quote:

Although it's practised by many other species for whom it is a greatly cherished tradition, an alien species has to earn the right to hold tournaments and have members train as Mutari. Back before the Yolu made contact with other races, or even united under one government, a Yolu nation or faction had to earn the right to compete, and after the Yolu made contact with aliens this rule was applied to them as well.

This right is earned through a member of said species either emerging victorious during a match against a local Sho-rin, or fighting him to a draw. Usual this is after being sponsored by a Muta-Do or Ka-Tow, although anyone can simply just issue a challenge as a Sho-rin is honour bound to except all challenges (although circumventing the resident Muta-Do like that is often seen as disrespectful and it is almost always a last resort).

CaptainPsyko fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Mar 3, 2021

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