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Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.


The_Doctor posted:

S1E8 - And the Sky Full of Stars


Sinclair remembers (some bits)! I feel like Delenn being on the ship/on the Grey Council isnít the huge revelation the writers think it is, considering theyíve been repeatedly saying it over and over up til now. And the Minbari are keeping a secret about what happened there. Well... yeah. Thatís where we were when the episode started, too. But now a blind Minbari dude appeared to reiterate that fact!


I think that's just how JMS does his writing. While B5 was the predecessor for modern shows like Battlestar, Game of Thrones, Expanse, etc. I think Babylon 5 was very different in how it developed a lot of its 'twists.' JMS has said that a story shouldn't be predictable but you should be able to predict it. In that sense, if everything is laid out and explained well, the audience should be able to see where it will go. He's a big believer in a well-executed Chekov's gun. So, I think for a lot of B5, the 'twists' can seem almost obvious - especially if you're paying attention and binging through it - because JMS believes that they should be foreshadowed. This is different to a lot of modern shows that do serialised storytelling, where big twists just happen because it keeps the audience guessing/engaged. Wow, this person is a Cylon! Wow, this person killed the Night King! Can you go back and see the breadcrumbs or hints that led to those big moments? Naaah.

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Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.


Sanguinia posted:

I think there can be merit to a complete out of nowhere twist though. The two big twists during the season finale of Galactica Season 3 were mindblowing and exciting and you were almost desperate to know what was going on and what those reveals meant about the future AND the past. What resulted from them was... controversial, lets say, but that's not the fault of the moment, its the fault of the failure to follow up.

Well, no. I mean, that's kind of the problem with a Big Twist like that -- it's then up to whoever picks up the ball to have a drat good reasoning or explanation for it. Battlestar really, really didn't, as much as I love the series. I struggle to think of any story that goes for Big Twists like that which really ends up working.

pentyne posted:

JMS had to do a ton of things to make B5 be a functional show because of what he was dealing with, low budget, airing on a fly by night regional network PTEN, and all the challenges associated with a production like that given people coming and go with opportunities.

He essentially wrote out the series in advance, the so called "series bible" he pitched to Paramount is what everyone claims DS9 is based off despite massive, massive differences. Once he finally found a home for the show he ended up doing a thing where he would create very intricate outlines for every single character giving everyone a "plausible" out if the actor ended up leaving the show or he had to fire/cut to save money. It'd be insane to think of that now when you have a show like Grey's Anatomy that just have a character leave via writing a farewell note after the actor said he was done that a narrator reads out over clips of the other people looking wistfull.

One, wrong.

Two, this isn't a conversation for this thread.

Anonymous Zebra posted:

This isn't even remotely true, but it's not something we can discuss in detail in a newbie thread. The original plot for Babylon 5 that JMS "planned" ahead of time resembles almost in no way the plot of the show that aired, diverging mid-way through season 1 and never going back. Babylon 5 is a very good show for it's time despite the cheap budget, and huge production issues the show ran into, but JMS has been blowing air up peoples asses claiming for decades about how well planned the show was while evidence from his early internet posts show that he was basically doing a really good job of making stuff up as he went. Again, we can't really talk about it here, but everyone who has seen the series knows what major production issues I'm talking about and how they drastically changed the plot of the show.

The truth of Babylon 5's production is a much better story than JMS' claims, but his claims were all a necessary part of the production process.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.


Sanguinia posted:

I guess that depends on your definition of "working." Lost may have ended on a lovely note, but earlier seasons had big out-of-nowhere twists that worked out amazingly. Game of Thrones ended on a lovely note but twists like Ned Stark's death or Obryn Martel's failure to win the Trial by Combat or Jaime losing his sword hand certainly fit the bill in my book as Big Twists which super worked.

If you wanted to say "I struggle to think of a Big Twist WHICH THE WHOLE STORY'S ENDING DEPENDED ON which really ends up working," that's a bit more reasonable.

Well, Ned Stark's death is kind of the whole point of the first season? He's continuously made out to be an idiot who's going to get shanked by realpolitik, and then he is? Sooo...

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.


The Technomages might just be the worst part of Babylon 5, and they perhaps date the series to the 90s more than any other part.

Milkfred E. Moore
Aug 27, 2006

The fate of destruction is also the joy of rebirth.


I think the DVDs had subtitle/dialogue disagreements, too. Maybe they drew subtitles from the scripts-as-written versus as shot or something?

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