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After fifteen odd years I am finally watching Babylon 5 for the first time, I just finished episode 8 of season 1. I'm really enjoying it so far -- I'm a big fan of the sustained narrative structure, Londo, and Sinclair's eyebrows
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Jan 25, 2023 21:09
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Yeah sorry, was a bit distracted - I mean that it came on my radar in the mid 2000s but I never got around to watching it until now I gotta admit I'm not super keen so far on the psy cops and mind reading components. It seems like a common enough trope for sci fi but it usually feels like a hacky gimmick that opens up way more holes than it's worth
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Jan 25, 2023 21:52
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That's a very good point - but I think also as sci fi evolved it also learned to better handle character work and interpersonal conflicts rather than lofty abstract concept work, and Babylon 5 seems to also be kicking off the next generation of sci fi in that respect, but with some clashing cheesy holdovers at times. Like, I'm watching S1E10 (the believers) now, and I'm noticing how much I appreciate the character work on Londo and G'Kar when they're explaining why they won't help. G'Kar seems sincerely sympathetic and so tells them plainly that there's nothing to be gained and everything to be lost for them, whereas Londo pretends to care and wraps an excuse in fancy bureaucracy that he knows will bewilder the Children of Time, but it comes off as his typical insincere pageantry. Which is very consistent for them and also runs counter to gimmicky writing that you'd expect from other sci fi shows, even of later generations. But then the episode feels like it's stumbling a bit on the doctor, who is supposed to have a lot of experience working with various races and presumably also their cultural/religious idiosyncracies, and yet is an antagonistic foil for the main premise of religion vs medical care, which is very much a known thing even on earth - so he doesn't need to even be an alien doctor, just a doctor full stop. But he's forced into that aggressive dynamic in what feels like a somewhat clumsy way, when he has previously come off as more nuanced, if I remember that right But despite that nitpicking the show still carries off what it wants to say pretty well, both conceptually and just as something to watch, which is more than I can say for some other seminal works that I might struggle to pick up again these days, because they've just been so overshadowed by the next generation of shows that built off what they did
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Jan 25, 2023 22:58
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Whoops, also forgot to make the actual connection to my point - that mind reading and so forth feels like a really gimmicky/finicky thing to mesh with character work and stems from a more conceptual side of sci fi. I imagine there are ways to do it with more finesse but it'd presumably take a lot of work to set up rules and structures, which they're not willing to invest for the idea they're trying to get out of it, so it invariably comes off as cheesy and even partly non-canon If that makes sense
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Jan 25, 2023 23:08
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S1E11 - survivors Garibaldi is on the run after being framed and he's completely dismissive of the obvious plot against him right up until the moment he legs it. A little while later a member of the station security, who presumably used to report to him as his boss or boss's boss, sees him - and immediately whips out his gun and starts blasting at him. Something tells me that guy ain't getting a christmas bonus once the frame job is cleared up
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Jan 26, 2023 00:13
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That's a tough one. I think so far the actor is doing a good job at hitting the most important parts of the character, and sometimes not a great job at things that fall outside that range, but the character itself is a bit flat and pretty 2d anyway. And when it calls for something that goes beyond "sympathetic, confident, charming dad" (which he nails) or "disappointed or angry dad" then it feels like it's both poorly written and like he's a bit out of his element. I'm thinking of that romance episode earlier in the season which felt very off, with Kathryn or Kaitlin or something, and action scenes, torture scenes, nuanced emotion, and so forth It feels like he is mostly sliding into just being a calm presence that backgrounds the more exciting or well developed characters and I guess provides some historical or world building exposition, but without so much of a complex person to pin it to? But the thing is I mostly don't care while I'm watching him, he's got a great vibe for the majority purpose the character seems to be supposed to serve, so I'm enjoying it so far. Will need to think about it some more though However I did read the actors Wikipedia page a few episodes ago cos I wanted to know what else he was in, so I spoiled a little for myself and also got a bit sad
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Jan 26, 2023 00:43
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Sorry I haven't posted in a while, I've been taking notes here and there as I continue watching but I've been struggling hard with ADHD brain so #justpost is NOT praxis, especially when I see how bad my notes are and keep going "oh I gotta tidy that up before I post it". I'm not big on making predictions because I can't remember most of what happened and it turns out I am just a fussy little nitpicking hater, which doesn't reflect the fact that I am actually quite enjoying this show. I've probably got at least a probe headed my way for other reasons so I figured I'd just dump all my notes as-is while I'm in a "kill that todo list" mood, rather than wait til I get around to editing them into not-terrible thoughts (i.e. impossible; never) Some of these I was stoned or coming down from a trip so they might be even more incoherent or indefensible than normal, or I just binged and didn't make notes. And around the end of season 1 I realised I'd missed the pilot and maybe an extra episode got out of order? Not sure, but some of these notes might be very confusing - sorry Season 1 episode 12 The dock worker strike. I don't want to get into it, ACAB, etc etc. The Babylon 5 administration is becoming problematic but nobody seems to bother reflecting on this or learning anything. Sinclaire is starting to stand out more and more as a weak character, weakened further by kind of an empty performance Sinclaire Garibaldi and Ivanavov are basically just space cops now and by this point their default moral high ground as seemingly sympathetic protagonists has been significantly eroded. "Just following orders" until someone up the ladder treads on their fingers and they get lovely and pull a Deus ex machina "I'm a good person so i must be doing good things, now get out of my way and do what I say" which doesn't address any of the underlying conflicts or tensions Episode 13 - signs and portents A Londo heavy episode, sweet. I love how this very unhinged Centauri nobleman is talking openly and sinisterly about staging a coup and claiming the throne and Londo is just mixing his next drink going "well yeah you could but I wouldn't recommend it. Have you seen a lime around here?" And earlier some prophetess whips out the classic melodrama "Babylon will be destroyed!!" portent of doom, and Londo is like oh yeah alright. Take a nap. And later it seems like he expresses a bit of surprise that the other guy didn't believe her. Yet he just doesn't give a poo poo? I've decided that so far Londo feels like a mix between Machiavelli and The Dude. I am along for the ride Also.. THE SHADOWS..!! Just walking around on B5 being creepy. And when is Londo going to get security or something, I feel like every night he goes to sleep with his front door wedged open with a sack of gold coins Now that I'm paying more attention, I find Sinclair ever weaker as a character and performance. I'm all about Londo now And.. that 1.3 million standard credits that went missing from the military defence budget didn't get brought up again even though there's literally an assault on the station, so previous episode clearly has some class war business going on which Sinclair et Al just don't want to rock the boat on (unless someone threatens their personal authority) S1E14 - no thoughts, only: Where's londo s1e15 oh dang is that the guy from blade runner with all the toys. Double dang, kosh just slurped up that lady's brains. I bet under there is that brain bug from starship troopers. Is that some fake out, no way they just made kosh some hentai brain vampire from buffy. I hope it's just a misdirect. Also where are the shadows I'm very over Sinclair now, the charm has worn off. These last few episodes have been weaker, generic 90s low budget cheesy sci fi kinda fare. If you want to get away with cheese you gotta make it fun, which Londo is nailing, and they have good writing and better character development on the narrative episodes, but the "daily monster/mystery/sitcom premise" game isn't super strong because they're missing characters and actors who are strong enough or camp enough (Londo, G'Kar) to swing it. I feel like they had a story written out that would fill one or two seasons and then they padded with "what else could happen on this station in the meantime" but didn't fit character development into that, nor are they committing enough to the gag. I dunno, it feels like it's in a middle ground at the moment, but I'm also a very impatient person so that probably speaks more to me than anything concrete about the show. I'm sure a lot of people really dig the semi-cheesy episodic sci fi format, I know I got really into firefly for that years ago (and other shows), but I'm too old and jaded now, especially with the past 20 years of the sci fi genre I've come to expect a bigger story and tighter character work, which I guess is a bit unfair. I guess you'd have them pair the creator with an inside professional who could polish it, but it'd also tidy up a lot of the crazier stuff which would be a shame, but I reckon if it's there they should lean into it more, which they aren't.. so a missed opportunity maybe The fight scenes remain terrible but that's hardly unique to b5 S1e21:. The quality of mercy: this is the episode where we find out that Londos penis is I think identical to that tentacle that sucked the brains out of people a few episodes back. It is unclear why this was important to the story S1e22: the doctor waltzing out of the operating room 0.001s after the flatline, basically going "he's dead. So! What's for lunch" and whistling as he walked off was so great. But also Sinclair super weirdly proposing to his girlfriend was not great. The more I see of him the less I care about his character. I first thought it was a flashback but slowly realised they were just coming to the end of the season and abruptly trying to push some developments along, even though it's been god knows how long since we last saw or heard of her. Delenn has cocooned herself, I can only imagine she evolves into the only logical, statistically supported superior lifeform.. a crab. Londo is eventually going to become the main character and then they're going to ruin him too S1e.. actually I have no idea, my totally legitimate VHS set is apparently out of order: Londo takes over the intro monologue, interesting. Oh.. Garibaldi is fine now? How much time just passed? Rules prohibiting inter species sex is very problematic but they gloss over it immediately to make a praying mantis joke about the woman eating the man after sex. Weird. Update: Ok that last one was the pilot and I am just going to come back to it some other time S2e1: cya Sinclair. Are they gonna replace him with his twin brother, this new dude who seems to have an incredibly similar backstory and character and even looks the same?? .. oh yeah he's doing the voice over and he's in the opening credits. Well, his voice isn't as smooth and his eyebrows aren't as good, but I hope he has some more range to him. s2e2?: revelations - so I guess Londo has gotta sink further before his redemption arc. Feels like they're walking a weird line, Londo is dumb and self-serving, I can understand him getting suckered into the first attack on the Narn outpost but after finding out and getting the heebie jeebies from that shadow guy, I don't see him going back and telling him about the Narn ship doing a pass by the shadow homeworld. Seems uncharacteristic and a bit forced. New president is obviously a shadow puppet but the actor is less presidential and more 2 buck mall cop. Also G'Kar telling just everyone about an upcoming secret military mission against an unfathomable powerful secret enemy is lol. "It'll be there in 12 hours, if you want a transponder code lemme know, but we are gonna Livestream it anyway" Ohh Delenn transformed into a human with hair. With hair, and no bald cap!! Time for captain Newguy to move on from his dead wife and further his efforts in interspecies diplomacy S2e4 a distant star - ok so Sheridan's old mate comes back and I assume they want to deal with the idea of Sheridan's wanderlust, except rather than introduce it with any finesse (even if it all has to be self contained in a single episode, which.. it's a sustained narrative structure show, they can't put some hooks in for future episodes?) they just decide to make him act like a complete and utter arsehole to Garibaldi? I was just starting to like him again after the overly aggro start in episode 1 I haven't been paying attention to writing or directing credits but there's some weird skewing/oscillation and i don't know what the pattern is yet.. sometimes the characters have moments of depth, subtlety, nuance, and other times they are just super dumb lovely bastards. Not just in the writing but in how they're acted in those moments. Normally actors who have a vision for their character find a way to interpret sloppy writing to meet it, and ivanova and Garibaldi and Londo (and G'Kar - haven't seen much of him lately though) generally swing that, but Sheridan is all over the place so far - just seems to be reading the lines as they come And obviously just sending out a bunch of his own pilots to die just for a chance to save his friend Oh the shadows! I bet they have special technology that lets them live in hyperspace indefinitely and prey on floundering ships. And they're going to gently caress somebody's big fleet up at some critical point Hmm.. ok Sheridan is also not a good actor. Why do they keep hiring people based on how much they look like soldiers from those old timey American war propaganda posters? Some acting skills would maybe be worth adding to the equation S2e5 the long dark: slow down doc, that's pretty egregious moral misconduct. You can't be stroking your patients face and trying to kiss her, holy moly. Where'd you study medicine, a YouTube comment section?? Oh and Garibaldi and Sheridan found out and just crack a joke and move on. Yikes. For reference, she just woke up from a 100 year stasis sleep, found out yesterday that her husband got murdered, and now she's on a giant space station surrounded by fucken aliens. Perfect time to get your dick wet huh doc??? Wow the doc just isn't stopping, he's creepin hard. Is this what flirting looks like in the future Ohh the monster was heading to the shadow homeworld, so that was a shadow? Why didnt it disguise itself as a human then, rather than just going invisible.. S2e6 spider in the web: wait, so Talia just straight up calls out people if they're lying or hiding something during negotiations? That seems incredibly one sided, who would the second party ever agree to that?? Especially if they're talking what is essentially treason S2e8 - I'm just thinking about it now but I prefer the first season intro song S2e9 - Sheridan is so angry all the time. I guess it fits that he's a soldier not a diplomat but he has very little finesse, if he keeps this up the station is gonna be abandoned by season 3 Ohh the ranger is the same actor as the evil Sheriff from Firefly, just younger S2e10: gropos - it's a top secret mission, that's why we couldn't let you know we were coming. That's also why we are letting 25000 top secret troops run around for 3 days in the space station with the highest concentration of alien spies in the entire universe! We will need the element of surprise for when we launch a suicide attack on some death fortress from our specifically diplomatic station in neutral space I get that earth, already heavily morally compromised, is going full fash under (I assume) the shadows, but man they're just diving head first into the fascist playbook "but the logic of your actions is absurd" "that's the point, what matters is the authority behind it". I guess they aren't doing a super nuanced take, although I hope at some point the main cast is like "hang on we have been begrudgingly but obediently following orders as those orders became increasingly evil, how can we still lay claim to legitimate authority on this station, knowing our complicity?" and then take b5 independent in an anarchist revolution Lmao Garibaldi and the marine hooking up and he has zero chill. And then.. oh it got sad, he's got like PTSD and relationship anxiety, but I guess tv in the 90s still didn't want to acknowledge the existence of therapy Oh dang I bet the doctors dad is about to die. Garibaldi's fling cum involuntary therapist too Ohh so victory but only the grunts die. Hey I like it, I keep getting tricked by how cheesy the setup can come off and expect something hamfisted and then it keeps turning out that I am just a hater S2e11 all alone in the night - so Delenn believes that minbari souls are getting reborn then grows some hair and thinks everything is different now? I thought she was always going on about how great her culture is S2e12- aw poo poo G'Kar is so good. When Delenn and Sheridan tell him that they'll secretly provide food and sneak out some civilians to safety but that's all they can do and he's like.. that's it? But he puts on his best face and thanks them sincerely even though he's screaming and crying on the inside London's hollow victory and bitter lack of joy in his newfound success is satisfying as well, I imagine he has a bit further to fall still, but I wonder how much of a baddie they want to make him into before the redemption arc. Or maybe he doesn't get one? Hm S2e15 - hm I'm not a big fan of the extended documentary/news report format, but I'll take it. Doc is clearly also not a believer in therapy, way to go dark boss. S2e16 - docs speech about dying patients sounds like something from a dodgy serial killer manifesto. Also this shadow guy is human?? For some reason I no longer remember, I thought he was an alien who just disguised perfectly as a human S2e17 knives - Londo's understanding of morality: the blood is already on my hands, I'm stuck on this path now, I have to see it through. Essentially, it wouldn't be fair to my first ten thousand victims if I refrained from killing the next ten million. Classic, nailed it Londo. Lie back and have a little self-pitying nap, that was some good philosophising buddy, you earned it S2e22 comes the inquisitor - not a fan of this episode, I gotta admit. Although it's very meta that the real pain in the torture scenes was forcing us to suffer through the agonising dialogue. Oh good some sci fi nerd's dickensian bdsm fantasy has dragged in Sheridan to join in on the exciting climax to tonight's 9th grade drama class video I guess they can't all be good episodes Lmao he's supposed to be literally jack the ripper. Who is ostensibly repentant but clearly not. So the vorlans do the only logical thing and send him off to torture Delenn to death, because there's nothing like a contrived self sacrifice scene to prove that someone's a goodie Although granted I tuned out for almost the entirety of this episode, I am not a fan S2e23 the fall of night - oh boy these night watch fellas are like 3 seconds into the scene and they're already going full on armband jackboots vibes. I can't wait til earth goes fash and the main characters have to reflect on themselves and their authority based moral convictions G'Kar and Sheridan are both super bad at their jobs if they think this guy from earth has come to provide military assistance to the Narn, lmao. Sheridan has said so many times "oh boy earth sure is going kinda fashy-washy hey.. oh well!" and G'Kar is an ambassador who keeps begging for military help from a government without knowing anything about it Sheridan reflecting on the actions of his government is just.. petulant child vibes. Like a poor little rich boy who just got told there's no more ice cream and doesn't understand what that means. "But I'm the hero, why are bad or hard things happening to me" Oh man Kosh is such a mangled alien angel dude, it's great. It's like some Baron Harkonen fetish S3e1 - oh my god the headshot intros in the opening credits like it's a sports line up. Incredible, what were they thinking. Oh and I already don't like the budget aragon from the opening scene, so he's going to be a regular this season? I thought b5 was going into a fascist dystopia, this is looking like lost in space I'm also happy to reflect on how much less bad the fight scenes in later generation sci fis have gotten
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Feb 25, 2023 13:44
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Yes sorry, I think I made it a bit too unclear - I figured out relatively quickly that it was the pilot which I'd missed, but left the notes I'd made so far and just came back and watched it some other time. I think apart from that weird hiccough I've been watching in order. I think all the movies come after the show, right? Except for the pilot, The Gathering, which I guess I should have watched first
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Feb 26, 2023 15:15
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yeah i went into this show not wanting to make predictions but more just reflecting on what i'm seeing and where i'd like them to go. i've just started season 4 now and (spoilers) i'm really happy with the direction so far, and now that they're progressing significantly with the overarching plot a lot of my "just complaining" comments from earlier seasons are being shown up as needlessly skeptical hater-ism. like even the psycorp stuff turns out to be a big part of the main conflict of the story, which i'm pleasantly surprised at, despite still not being a big fan of MINDFIGHT as a concept. i am however disappointed in boxleitner as an actor, whoever said that sinclaire had gravitas had it absolutely right.. not much range but at least there's that, whereas sheridan is not a super compelling performance. it's good that he just kinda serves as the background and enabler/connecting thread for everything else, but whenever there are sheridan-heavy episodes it's hard not to notice the void of what 'could have been', in terms of dramatic effect
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Mar 18, 2023 17:52
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E: removed s3 spoilers And don't read them in the quoted post immediately below this boofhead fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Mar 22, 2023 |
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Mar 21, 2023 22:56
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Oops, sorry Edited the post
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Mar 22, 2023 04:28
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The vorlon ship texture is actually super advanced space tech that's designed to trick future computers into thinking it's a rendering glitch and not an actual ship This is canon (It's not canon)
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Mar 22, 2023 20:52
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whoops, turns out i forgot to post (and often make) notes in the past month. theyre all bad and completely unedited except for spoiler tags so feel free to skip this post will be season 3 S3e4 passing through Gethsemane - I know they said a few weeks had passed but holy moly that felt fast. Dude gets arrested for murder and basically executed the very next scene. "I confess!" alright lads you heard him, set phasers to JellyBrain - his walking corpse is needed about two levels down to slather some irony on Sheridan's face I wonder how consistent they are with relocating mindwipees, like does a psyop at Babylon pass the same 3 people they essentially murdered every day on the way to buy bread? This whole psy corp thing is amazingly twisted, especially for something that just kinda hangs around in the background most of the time. Just a whole bunch of attractive young fascist death squads, wholly owned, monopolized, controlled by, and loyal to a semi shadow state, used to literally execute people, spy on trade (and diplomatic?) negotiations, literally read people's thoughts.. oof. I'm imagining Sheridan, "what? Of course we're the good guys. Every completely normal society has roving bands of indoctrinated jackboots who kidnap children, read your mind, and rip the soul outta your body if you're naughty. And it's my duty to defend those brave patriots" S3e5 - voices of authority - G'Kar is so great Ohhh a political officer, Nazi Division. Throw her out the airlock. Come on Sheridan put your money where your mouth is. Do the coup "Good luck captain. You're about to go where I think everyone has gone before" oh ivanova S3e10 - in the middle of constant space combat and gunfight scenes, at a certain point they cut back to Garibaldi and the Narn repelling boarders and.. it's just devolved into a pub fight. People punching each other, holding a soldier's arms behind his back as another guy punches him.. what on earth. It was pretty Battlestar Galactica until that point S3e15 - ohh so that's what shadows look like Man Sheridan has about the same range as Sinclair. He yells a lot and that's about it Oh Kosh died. You kinda figure he'd maybe have arranged for a bit more protection if he knew the shadows would come for him in revenge, but I guess this is more dramatic Londo you are so bad at everything. You have the mentality of a horny 13 year old boy, stop trying to play the game of Empires. Just retire and become a full time loafer and all round chill guy, it's what you're good at. This politics thing is not your forte Also I like that they finally started playing the longer game with character development, at least with the doctor and his stim addiction. Although now I imagine it's the next step to him doing.. something, plot related Oh I forgot to mention but in the recent episodes this season, with all the space battles with earth, I can finally see all the cgi stuff paying off. it really made me want to re-watch the BSG remake, that poo poo was great S3e16 ohhh dang Sinclair is back, baby. Lay those eyebrows on me Also I've though this multiple times but forgot to write it down -- I love the *shrug, smile, move on -- all in 0.02s* that people have when the script just has some character ending on a pithy line but they still gotta film the reaction. I remember a scene from a couple episodes ago where Sheridan says something super weird to end a conversation in that cheesy sci fi kinda way, and Ivanova just nods and immediately turns away like "yep not getting into that", but then he remembers he also has something normal to ask her. I love watching the way different actors decide to react to different bizarre "that's the end of the scene, but make sure it ends on a dun dun DUNNNN" lines Like that scene in garth Marenghi where some character throws out the cut to commercial line, but they keep filming as they turn around and march awkwardly off into the distance for forever and a day. So good Hm.. Sinclair doesn't look so good. Poor guy. Forget what I said about Sheridan having the same range.. Sinclair is worse. But Sheridan ain't great S3e17 - .. just finished this two parter and i wasn't really following it at all, goldfish attention span got the better of me. I have the impression these were important and I'm gonna regret that.. whoops. Maybe I get it when I rewatch the series at some point S3e19 - Garibaldi how many times do you need to make the same mistake before you learn.. report in and let people know where you are and what you know before you go galavanting about into almost certain hosed up danger. Who is going to find you?? Terrible head of security, just inexcusable Oh and a creepy chucky type doll, lmao S3e22- Sheridan's wife comes back, immediately has mega creep vibes. If Sheridan is anything other than "this is a huge mind gently caress but obviously you are mixed up in something incredibly dodgy so I'm going to let ivanova and Garibaldi interrogate you for a few weeks" he's the biggest dumb dumb in the history of ever Like, I know she's lying and so forth but this whole dynamic is like, Sheridan, is this actually the woman you married and fell in love with? What kind of standards do you have? "Oh yeah she was always doing cute things like stealing my blood and standing over me with a knife while I slept, that's how you know it's true love. God I missed her" Lol I refuse to believe he's going to zahadum with her. Just eject her into the nearest black hole.. wait he just arrived. I honestly thought it was a scam, there's no way. This is Kang and Kodos run for US president levels of deception, but what's greatest is that so far Sheridan is like "hm she's just the same as she ever was, i.e. a cartoon serial killer, but there's something about her story that just doesn't add up!" Oh so this is a sloppy soap opera writing kinda episode so far. Main guy does something that makes no sense, goes to baddies lair for some hamfisted monologuing exposition Where'd they find this Einstein looking guy, he's awful Ok and Sheridan just nuked himself in the middle of some more terrible writing. I'm assuming he's not dead but how come ivanova telepathically thinks he is ?? Huh And Garibaldi got nabbed. I gotta say, that was a very underwhelming season finale, especially being the first time we see zahadum and the shadows start to speak their plans? Not sure I believe it either, I can't tell if it's fakeout cheesy or legitimate cheesy
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Mar 25, 2023 22:03
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i obviously have been getting spottier and spottier with thoughts and notes, but heres where im up to with season 4 S4e5 - the long night - well hello there Bryan Cranston, you're looking very young and tidy S4e6 - into the fire - nothing particularly revelatory here, just small observations like... Londo seems to have a single framed photo in his chambers, and its of himself. Lmao And also, fascist earth has been super quiet for a long time, new villains after the vorlons/shadows gently caress off? Would be a more tangible enemy for the rest of the series, tie nicely into "well now you need to learn to manage yourselves (and not turn fascist)" and I imagine earth could pump out a pretty nasty fleet, maybe with technology stolen from the minbari or even the shadows I will say that the vorlons/shadows going "oh jeez we been left home alone for too long, we done messed up" and pissing off fell a little flat for me. Complete 180 from their arrogance up to this point, although I get the thematic point e: ok reading these notes again, i feel compelled to clarify that on monday i just got diagnosed with ADHD, so apologies for the nonsense. I am still enjoying it so far but i am just not going to be the person that consistently analyses and remembers stuff and Does Good Posts boofhead fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Mar 25, 2023 |
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Mar 25, 2023 22:07
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Alhazred posted:G'Kar's speech at the end totally redeems it though. oh yeah, its a nice one - a little summation of the whole premise of the show. bu g'kar's actor is such a standout performance in every way, he has just been nailing the whole thing from start to finish, so that even the occasional cheesy/camp sci-fi stuff is forgiven -- like, a couple times when posing for a fight he hisses and holds out his 'claws' like a cat?? somehow completely permissible because g'kar is just so good. i've loved londo since the start too but when it comes to tugging at the emotional heartstrings and pulling off a dramatic/pivotal moment, g'kar is unrivalled
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Mar 26, 2023 10:31
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Lemniscate Blue posted:Which will in turn lead the viewer to an interesting answer to the question of why Londo saw nothing. Londo saw nothing because what everyone was looking at was neither a cocktail, a stripper, or a political rival. All else is immaterial and not worth the neurons spent processing the raw visual input. He was simply operating at peak Londo efficiency
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Mar 29, 2023 16:02
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Tom Guycot posted:I don't think its pointless, I think the centauri have to be dealt with or they'll just do it all again, in 10 years, 20, 100, they'll eventually start it up again. When the nazis had to retreat back into german borders, it would have been foolish to not press on, to just say "oh they have their own problems, we need to be above revenge", because its not even about revenge, its about the fact they're just going to do it again unless they are stopped and their system that enabled repeated genocides is dismantled. Did the victims of the nazi violence 'deserve better' than to waste time and resources hunting down nazis and hanging them? If you put the centauri into historical terms it become inexcusable to preach a 'rise above it' message. Leaving the centauri and their government, military officers, etc, in place is irresponsible for the galactic community, and until it is dealt with they'll all just have to wonder "whos next?". It's not just pointless from a philosophical standpoint, it's also impossible. The Narn had spent a long time building up their military capabilities prior to the outbreak of the latest war, they were even significant regional military armament producers and exporters, although I imagine more in bulk rather than relative quality. They were feeling confident and swinging their dick around in territorial disputes with the Centauri, so basically at the strongest they'd been at in their entire history, in terms of military preparation for a war with the Centauri. And they got absolutely demolished. The Shadows were a big factor in swinging the balance at the start (in terms of making the war no longer such a costly prospect for the Centauri), sure, but the point is that the war is over, it's all done -- the Narn military has been destroyed or dismantled, its military and political leaders killed, its home planet and industries reduced to rubble, and the Centauri left with their fleet in tact. What are they going to go after the Centauri with? Even if they 100% believe that the Centauri need to be exterminated for the protection of the Narn and all other species, who's going to do it? Nobody wanted to help Narn during the war even back when it seemed they might have had a chance to hold their own or maybe win. And that was before The Shadows/Vorlons, and before the Narn got absolutely crushed. Nobody is going to help them with a war, and they'll need generations to recover even if they did go on a war footing, so the only actually reasonable option is to do what G'Kar is doing -- keep your mouth shut and rebuild. Although I don't believe it's a fake, if you wanted to take out the Centauri in the long term, you'd STILL be doing what G'Kar is doing now, and instead of just believing sincerely in the message, you just use it as a guise until you build up strength. The comparison with WW2 and the march on Germany/Berlin absolutely doesn't fit because the German war machine had already been absolutely demolished by that point, and the allies were instead on the other end of the spectrum, to the extent where the relative disparity in military industrial output between the major countries involved is STILL mindboggling, 80 years after these events changed the face of the planet. the narn being comprehensively defeated, dismantled, and getting a reprieve 2 seconds from the hangman's noose is absolutely not a narn that should be flushed with hormones and yelling about invading Centauri Prime
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Apr 1, 2023 10:33
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I think we're at the same point -- I've watched Season 4 Episode 6 (Into the Fire), but not yet 7. So the following has spoilers if you haven't watched s4e6 yet: Basically the most consistent underlying themes to the show, at least as I've noticed, deal with the moral and pragmatic necessity of rejecting the demand for absolutes and for tribalist identities. Earth and a lot of other species emerge into a big, complex universe and often, very powerful political/cultural parties within each species are basically overwhelmed and terrified by it, so they try to gain safety through power, via isolationism and military strength (and thus military adventurism), wanting to hide behind the illusion of stability that fascist ideology offers. Earth turns fascist and starts forming sketchy alliances and making morally indefensible decisions based solely on the desire for military strength, the Centauri are obsessed with their standing and superiority and the 'threat' of upstart races that they used to control (e.g. the Narn) so they become genocidal expansionist conquerers, the non-aligned worlds are constantly trying to keep out of everyone else's business because they're terrified of getting crushed by a more powerful neighbour, even the toga-toting philosopher-pacifist Minbari, for all their esteemed and superior rhetoric, constantly struggle with factional internal conflict and the temptation to transform their technological advancement into military suppression of any neighbours who dare to interfere with their business (it's barely a few decades since they almost wiped out humanity, if i remember my timelines correctly, and a lot of Minbari aren't so sure that wasn't a great idea that they should have followed through on). Then you have the long arching narrative of the shadows and vorlons, and their respective philosophies for how various species and civilisations might coexist in the same universe, as well as how they actually act when they feel they're getting pressured beyond their comfort point -- and how that all gets resolved at the end, leaving the stage to the younger races who will have to figure it out themselves. The whole show is about how people react when placed in situations where others have agency that conflicts with your own, and how difficult it can be to balance moral relativism with pragmatism and self-preservation. The culmination of the Vorlon/Shadows plotline ends on that explicitly -- you need dialogue, you need structures and sustained efforts to reach past the easy, primalistic "fight-or-flight" response and to work together to coexist peacefully and prosperously. The Narn going "of COURSE the Centauri are going to try to genocide us or someone else again, it's in their nature, they can't help it, they must be exterminated" is a fair thing to say in terms of what they've gone through and what recent history has shown, but it's directly counter to (I feel) the message that the show is trying to convey, which is that everyone has the potential to grow beyond this, and it's really the only way things are ever going to work out, so you need to try. And every time you get slapped down or things don't work out, you pick yourself up and try again. Because if you follow that logic of "some people/species are simply irredeemable and must be exterminated, once and for all" then what's so different between that and the logic that the fascist Earth government is using, where the universe is a zero-sum game and it's kill or be killed? They just jumped ahead a few pages but it's the same playbook. Not to say that the capacity for self-defence and self-preservation isn't an obligation, it is, and we've seen this when Babylon 5 put together a sort of 'doomed alliance' against overwhelming odds, but the way the conflict was resolved was not through force of arms but through dialogue and mutual understanding. Which, again.. the underlying theme of Babylon 5. I'm not saying you need to believe this personally, I'm just saying that it's consistent with the message of the show, in my opinion e: threw a paragraph break in there somewhere because that was a lot of rambling boofhead fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Apr 1, 2023 |
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Apr 1, 2023 22:50
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Rambassador Josh: an angel in the streets, a devil in the sheets
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Apr 3, 2023 11:52
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Apr 14, 2023 14:25
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