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Krakkles posted:I'd love to see an example of this sense of humor because he's always seemed like a tryhard edgelord to me. I did limit it to those I have seen arguing so far in this thread, and their right to do so in this thread. I think it's bullshit for someone to pop in and accuse them of 'whining'. I don't even necessarily disagree with the rule change, but I do disagree with someone demeaning them for doing so. As to fridge corn, why is it necessary for me to explain why sometimes I think he's funny? Do you decide when someone is allowed to post here? If he breaks a rule he gets to take a break. Yeah I do find humor in his ability to make some of y'all froth at the mouth. HenryJLittlefinger posted:Uh no, chief. This thread is for discussion about the rule change, per the person who posted it. You're making GBS threads on the posters here discussing it and attempting to silence them by comparing them to racists.
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Jun 11, 2020 23:43
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angryrobots posted:I did limit it to those I have seen arguing so far in this thread, and their right to do so in this thread. I think it's bullshit for someone to pop in and accuse them of 'whining'. I don't even necessarily disagree with the rule change, but I do disagree with someone demeaning them for doing so. I was genuinely asking what I'm missing about fridge corn's posts, but it seems like it's his edgelord stuff that you find amusing. That's an answer, so thanks. I find it really interesting that you attack me asking a genuine question ("why is it necessary for me to explain why sometimes I think he's funny? Do you decide when someone is allowed to post here?") while simultaneously defending the people fighting against the rule put down by the people who actually do decide things like that. It's very confused libertarian ... Like, your question is invalid because you don't have authority, but also, how dare those in authority exercise that authority? angryrobots posted:This thread is for discussion about the rule change, per the person who posted it. You're making GBS threads on the posters here discussing it and attempting to silence them by comparing them to racists.
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Jun 12, 2020 00:07
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i don't have an issue with fridge corn's posting or whatever, i just disagree with them about this
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Jun 12, 2020 00:10
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Yes, I genuinely do want discussion on this topic and I am carefully reading all your posts on the matter and considering what you have to say. This is why I left the thread open and openly invited ya'll to post. My personal views are very obviously influenced by me being american and yeah, my moderating decisions are going to reflect that. I also try to realize that we likely have one of the largest ratios of non americans to americans on something awful and my moderating also has to reflect that as well. Edit: To be clear, I am realizing that rule two needs to be adjusted and didn't expect it go fully unchanged. As I said, I'm listening to what ya'll have to say and considering in what direction to move AI. Elmnt80 fucked around with this message at 00:40 on Jun 12, 2020 |
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Jun 12, 2020 00:12
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Krakkles posted:It's pretty disingenuous to say that HJL "popped in and accused them of 'whining'". He's posted just as much in here as you have, and constructively. I did not refer to any of HJL's previous posts, just that one? I think you are reading too far into what I posted - I'm saying that accusing the persons posting in this thread of whining is not cool. Comparing them to NASCAR racists was just some extra flair. The fact that you agree with his sentiment doesn't make it not lovely, here. As to the corn thing, I'M asking "why do I need to defend who I find amusing or not", here or anywhere else? As if you're the arbiter of AI posting? From previous experience, my personal opinion is that yeah you do think that, so admittedly it was a leading question that has no place in this thread. I won't bring it up again and doubt I have anything else to say about anything here.
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Jun 12, 2020 00:21
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angryrobots posted:I did not refer to any of HJL's previous posts, just that one? I think you are reading too far into what I posted - I'm saying that accusing the persons posting in this thread of whining is not cool. Comparing them to NASCAR racists was just some extra flair. I don't see the invalidity that you seem to - people ARE whining (elsewhere) about not being able to fly the traitor flag. People ARE whining about not being able to use the c-word here. Worth saying: Not all of what's being said in dissent is whining. Some of it definitely is. If the comparison was genuinely intended as "anyone who says the c-word is racist", then yeah, it's dumb as hell. But nothing about what he said reads that way, whether I agree with it or not.  Oh, you're referring to the (three?) incidents where someone was blatantly and obviously racist, and I called them on their poo poo, and mods/admins ended up taking action on it. Got it. Snitches get stitches, right? Between that and your sensitivity over HJL's comment above, golly, that racism thing seems to be a touchy subject for you.I think it's fun that you think some random person on the internet asking a question is obviously trying to control things. How insecure do you have to be that someone asking a genuine question seems like a threat?
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Jun 12, 2020 01:07
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Krakkles posted:Perhaps I misunderstood your usage of "popped in". Judging by the rest of what you say (i.e. "admittedly it was a leading question that has no place in this thread"), I guess you didn't mean it literally, but as a weird negging thing - "your opinion is invalid because you haven't contributed". No. I never said any of that dude. I never said that his previous posts had any bearing on the one I took issue with, and they don't. Also I don't have any knowledge of whatever racists you have been involved in, so I'm not arguing with you about whatever it is you're talking about. I have an issue with you for exactly the poo poo you're pulling right now.
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Jun 12, 2020 01:30
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angryrobots posted:I did not refer to any of HJL's previous posts, just that one? I think you are reading too far into what I posted - I'm saying that accusing the persons posting in this thread of whining is not cool. Comparing them to NASCAR racists was just some extra flair. The fact remains that making a comparison between two separate groups of people bristling at a pretty minor request in a similar way is not in any way saying they’re the same. But even if I was, what of it? Use of the c-word as a derogatory word for women is not at all a new niche thing for incels like some people seem to believe. I’ve heard it used and I’ve heard a handful of women get really upset about it before the internet garbage people were even a thing. Unintentional misogyny is still misogyny, same as unintentional racism is still racism. I grew up in the south with the confederate flag everywhere. Seeing it equated with racism didn’t happen till I was in my 20s, but that doesn’t change the connection. I’m pretty sure I had one on a shirt and owned a handful of Lynyrd Skynyrd albums. So when reasonable people say “Hey, that symbol/word is associated with some terrible beliefs,” other reasonable people way “Ok, it’s probably best to not cling to it even if it doesn’t mean that to me.” And again, since it really seems to be the sticking point for you, I am hereby acknowledging that systemic racism and the confederate flag and the history associated with it are a much larger and worse problem than a crude gendered insult that doesn’t carry the same connotation to entire countries. Getting petulant about a request to bring a progressive idea into a community still has the same tone regardless though. At the same time, nobody is here screeching about evil misogynists calling women c*nts, it was pretty rationally stated. HenryJLittlefinger fucked around with this message at 01:50 on Jun 12, 2020 |
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Jun 12, 2020 01:46
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HenryJLittlefinger posted:The fact remains that making a comparison between two separate groups of people bristling at a pretty minor request in a similar way is not in any way saying they’re the same.
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Jun 12, 2020 03:48
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Maybe limit it to positing Australian videos in the dashcam thread. I’d wager that might be where the idea to exempt aussies and not brits came from (I may be very wrong on that point)
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Jun 12, 2020 04:04
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Elmnt80 posted:Yes, I genuinely do want discussion on this topic and I am carefully reading all your posts on the matter and considering what you have to say. This is why I left the thread open and openly invited ya'll to post. My personal views are very obviously influenced by me being american and yeah, my moderating decisions are going to reflect that. I also try to realize that we likely have one of the largest ratios of non americans to americans on something awful and my moderating also has to reflect that as well.
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Jun 12, 2020 04:49
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I think the thing that makes this such a curious moderating decision is that there is literally no one in this sub forum who uses or would use the c word as a gendered slur. They would immediately be called out on it. Everyone can at least recognise the difference between that and when an aussie or brit uses the word even if their tiny american minds cant understand what that difference is. This is reflected in the fact that there has been made an exception for Aussies (and only aussies which shows again a lack of understanding). So what actual effect will this ban on the c word have? Virtually none, except to piss off a few long standing posters and create a skeptical regard to future moderating decisions. C 
fridge corn fucked around with this message at 06:44 on Jun 12, 2020 |
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Jun 12, 2020 06:41
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HenryJLittlefinger posted:The fact remains that making a comparison between two separate groups of people bristling at a pretty minor request in a similar way is not in any way saying they’re the same. The difference is that the Nascar flag bitching is from people who are American, so American societal norms being asserted on them by other Americans is fine. That is not a parallel to non-Americans not liking American societal norms being asserted on them.
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Jun 12, 2020 07:50
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fridge corn posted:I think the thing that makes this such a curious moderating decision is that there is literally no one in this sub forum who uses or would use the c word as a gendered slur. My dude there was just a discussion about c-hairs as a unit of measurement in the chat thread. Turns out some people are very strongly in favor of that. A c-hair explicitly refers to a woman's pubic hair. It's a gendered slur that people were happily using here just a few weeks ago.
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Jun 12, 2020 14:01
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They're a stupid unit of measurement anyway, the cross-section of pubic hairs is ovalised, so your R&R will be loving awful.
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Jun 12, 2020 14:13
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Safety Dance posted:My dude there was just a discussion about c-hairs as a unit of measurement in the chat thread. Turns out some people are very strongly in favor of that. A c-hair explicitly refers to a woman's pubic hair. It's a gendered slur that people were happily using here just a few weeks ago. I'm not worried about that as we have a perfect backup measurement of a gnat's cock which is more or less equivalent
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Jun 12, 2020 14:43
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fridge corn posted:I'm not worried about that as we have a perfect backup measurement of a gnat's cock which is more or less equivalent Exactly! So you agree that the c-word has been used as a gendered slur in the recent past, and you've found a perfectly good replacement for it! Maybe all those custom titles were wrong about you.
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Jun 12, 2020 15:00
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fridge corn posted:I've already made the point that pussy is a more problematic insult than oval office In the US, "pussy" is commonly thrown around, at least in younger circles, as "oh, don't be a pussy, you know you can do that"... akin to "don't be scared to do this, just grow some balls and do this stupid thing". "oval office" is very much a worse term. But as an adult, "pussy" is still a not-nice word. That's a lovely new custom title you got yourself there! (and no, it wasn't me this time) fridge corn posted:I don't think I've ever had the urge to call a woman a oval office. Men are much more likely to be cunts in my experience I actually agree with you here, but I think it's because I watch too many Aussie dashcam video compilations.  Krakkles posted:It actually is true. The N-word is still worse, but the c-word is the only other word I'm aware of that meets John Mulaney's criteria. This. The N word is fine if you're a person of color talking to another person of color, but otherwise you DO NOT USE IT. EVER. Not even as a joke. You will get hurt, badly, especially in the south. "oval office" is right up there in terms of how profane it is. I cuss like a blackout drunk sailor regularly, and that's one of only a few words I won't use. Krakkles posted:That’s what I was alluding to, absolutely. The n-word is unquestionably worse, but people in the south think it’s fine. I've worked in plenty of places that were at least 50%, if not more, black/latinax. So I got very used to hearing the N word thrown around - but it was between people of color, the rest of us knew not to use it (though sometimes I'd get greeted by "<STR>, MY <first 3 letters of the N word>!" by coworkers when I came in, along with a fist bump or chest bump/hug). I knew not to ever use it. I did jokingly call one of my coworkers a cracker one day in a moment of total stupidity (in a joking manner), he turned around and said "hey, not cool, that's just one step below you calling me "a loving <n word>". I apologized and never said it again. fridge corn posted:I'm not worried about that as we have a perfect backup measurement of a gnat's cock which is more or less equivalent  That works for me
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Jun 12, 2020 15:08
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Genuinely never heard oval office being used to insult a woman outside of the US. I've heard it in US TV/films used in a shocking insult a woman manner and from American guys in general used to insult women online though. America still sees it as a highly edgy word for some reason. oval office to me and the men and women I know is just a body part swear like cock and arsehole. oval office is the upgraded version of fanny when you want to express more intense dislike. Ultimately I don't use it much in text but it's very much a word that has different intent depending on who is reading it and where they're from. UK and Aussies won't take a second glance whereas America will act like it's the worst word you could ever type out or say. Here endeth my rambling about a word.
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Jun 12, 2020 15:24
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STR posted:I did jokingly call one of my coworkers a cracker one day in a moment of total stupidity (in a joking manner), he turned around and said "hey, not cool, that's just one step below you calling me "a loving <n word>". I apologized and never said it again. Olympic Mathlete posted:oval office to me and the men and women I know is just a body part swear like cock and arsehole. oval office is the upgraded version of fanny when you want to express more intense dislike. Let's just word filter it to "gnat", that's a fridge corn post I can agree with. Krakkles fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Jun 12, 2020 |
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Jun 12, 2020 17:50
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Krakkles posted:Interesting. So it sounds like it DOES refer to the same body part that it does here - if that's the case, it kind of kicks the legs out of "it's not a gender thing". The use of it as a generic curse word has no gendered significance. It is not an insult against women when used as such, in the same way that tit, cock, knob, dick etc etc aren't. The relative severity of cursing it counts as has no bearing on that. Do you consider "hysterical" to be gendered?
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Jun 12, 2020 18:10
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Krakkles posted:So it sounds like it DOES refer to the same body part that it does here - if that's the case, it kind of kicks the legs out of "it's not a gender thing". It's a body part a particular sex has. What I said was that in the US it definitely seems to be a word used primarily to put women down. It's different here for sure, my best friend (a woman) will happily call me and everyone else a oval office when the mood takes her. A couple of my exes hated the word pussy and used oval office instead... I read your reply and asked another lady friend of mine how she feels about it: quote:It's one of my favourite swears. Nothing can describe your feelings more than oval office. It's definitely a cultural thing. *edit: as if to prove a point another lady friend of mine has literally just posted this on Facebook: https://twitter.com/thomas_violence/status/1002373759167107073?s=19 And again to prove my point the Dave Chappelle covid comedy thing has him calling Laura Ingraham a oval office... America uses it as a gendered insult. America is and has the problem. https://twitter.com/Irv_Do/status/1271330112093356036?s=19 Olympic Mathlete fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Jun 12, 2020 |
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Jun 12, 2020 18:16
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InitialDave posted:Yes it does, and no it doesn't. "Hysterical" is a word that I don't think I've ever actually used outside of a discussion of the word. I'm aware of it's origins, however. Olympic Mathlete posted:It's a body part a particular sex has. What I said was that in the US it definitely seems to be a word used primarily to put women down. It's different here for sure, my best friend (a woman) will happily call me and everyone else a oval office when the mood takes her. A couple of my exes hated the word pussy and used oval office instead... This whole time I thought you guys genuinely didn't use it to mean that. That changes everything from my point of view ... ban it. This is the same goddamn thing and it's dumb as hell.
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Jun 12, 2020 18:39
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I mean the same friend I quoted also said that anything she stubs her toe on is a oval office. I'm not 100% sure how that one is gendered. It's now a general word that depending on context means different things, that's why it's used so much. For context, stick oval office into the search bar on twitter and see how the word is used. You'll see it aimed mostly at terrible men by other men and also lots of women. It is quite literally only the USA, land of the free, home of the brave that actually use it in a misogynistic manner. It's not like it's the first time you lot have misunderstood English words... Olympic Mathlete fucked around with this message at 18:58 on Jun 12, 2020 |
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Jun 12, 2020 18:55
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Olympic Mathlete posted:I mean the same friend I quoted also said that anything she stubs her toe on is a oval office. I'm not 100% sure how that one is gendered. It's now a general word that depending on context means different things, that's why it's used so much.
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Jun 12, 2020 18:59
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Krakkles posted:This isn’t anyone misunderstanding words. It’s the exact same bad faith argument I made when I was, like, 14, about why “gay” is totally fine to use in the way I was using it. Gay refers to a group of people and when used pejoratively it demeans that group of people. oval office just refers to a body part and I dont really see how a non-sentient object can be demeaned in such a way
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Jun 12, 2020 19:31
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Banning a word irregardless of the context used is a loving stupid rule especially when that word has different meanings/impact internationally I've just read the forum rules. You have put in Rule 6. Language and are just interpreting it to ban the use of individual words? This should just say "Rule 1 - No Hate speech - don't be Racist/homophobic/abelist/misogynistic/transphobic/sexist". I don't give a poo poo about what exact words people use to do this just ban the sentiments. It should be pretty obvious.
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Jun 12, 2020 20:24
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fridge corn posted:Gay refers to a group of people and when used pejoratively it demeans that group of people. oval office just refers to a body part and I dont really see how a non-sentient object can be demeaned in such a way
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Jun 12, 2020 20:38
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Tomarse posted:
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Jun 12, 2020 20:42
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Krakkles posted:A particular group of people solely possess that body part, and used pejoratively, it demeans that group of people. If that's the case why aren't we banning all the other pejorative terms for that body part
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Jun 12, 2020 21:14
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Krakkles posted:A particular group of people solely possess that body part, and used pejoratively, it demeans that group of people. So can we not call someone a "dick" or a "dickhead" too? calling someone a 'tit' is a fairly common insult over here too...
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Jun 12, 2020 21:16
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Tomarse posted:Banning a word irregardless of the context used is a loving stupid rule especially when that word has different meanings/impact internationally I could reword it to no hate speech and it would have the same intent in my mind. If it makes it clearer for other people I can change that. I do wanna ask though, would those of you in the UK/Straya/etc call someone a oval office in public if you were in america visiting? If not, why?
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Jun 12, 2020 21:29
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Elmnt80 posted:I do wanna ask though, would those of you in the UK/Straya/etc call someone a oval office in public if you were in america visiting? If not, why? If I'm in a situation that had escalated to the point where I felt that insulting someone to their face was a warranted course of action i dont think I'd think twice about using the word oval office
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Jun 12, 2020 22:06
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I too would call a oval office a oval office. Note that I'd never call a woman a oval office because I'm not American.
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Jun 12, 2020 22:08
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Elmnt80 posted:
Total stranger? Not unless I really want to stick the verbal boot in. More in deference to being a guest in someone else's house than it being an issue for me. But you wouldn't call a random stranger a oval office here either. It might be less charged, but it still fits into the category of "starting some poo poo". But that's because you're calling them something akin to a "loving bellend", not because of any interpreted misogyny. I have referred to things/tasks as being "a right oval office [of a job etc]" around yanks, and not had them misunderstand the context. If you were talking to a Brit, and they hit you with "hahaha, ya silly oval office...", how would you take it?
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Jun 12, 2020 22:21
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Elmnt80 posted:I could reword it to no hate speech and it would have the same intent in my mind. If it makes it clearer for other people I can change that. Its the specific word ban that we object to. Take that out and do a proper rule that bans all hate speech instead and there would be absolutely no complaints. Whether or not anybody in the USA agrees with it, we have different vocabulary and language standards in the UK/AUS and this in an international forum even if the servers and Lowtax are in the US. It shouldn't need a specific location exemption for a rule, it just requires that anybody (and you as the mod) should be able to read and apply context and common sense to a sentence rather than just finding one word in it. I wouldn't call a random person in the street a oval office to their face while at home OR in the US (Unless they had just spilt my drink or trodden on my toes without apologising). I also never remember to change any words when I speak to Americans so once in conversation would happily describe someone (generally a politician or media broadcaster) as a oval office or describe an unpleasant task/job as a oval office. The last time i visited the US I had a very confusing conversation with a guy when I was looking for a "crowbar".
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Jun 12, 2020 22:23
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Elmnt80 posted:I could reword it to no hate speech and it would have the same intent in my mind. If it makes it clearer for other people I can change that. Maybe? I doubt I'd walk up to a stranger and call them a oval office, nor would I do that here. It would be the same as calling a stranger a prick, dickhead, fuckwit etc and I'm not really the type to start arguments (or an "aggro oval office" as we would put it). But in its other uses as a negative/neutral/positive word for a third party ("this loving oval office cut me off/let's go see the cunts down at Volkswagen and ask for a twofer/he's a good oval office that fella") or as a standin word for any object or action ("gently caress I just rounded this oval office off/give us a hand with this oval office/I miss my old hilux that oval office was unfuckenbreakable")? Absolutely, in any social situation where proper swearing is appropriate. Same applies on the internet I reckon. You'd only call someone a oval office in an argument/discussion if they were being an absolute fuckwit, but use it in all those other forms without thinking twice.
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Jun 12, 2020 23:31
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Tomarse posted:Its the specific word ban that we object to. Take that out and do a proper rule that bans all hate speech instead and there would be absolutely no complaints. But thats where the issue lies. In north america its a slur, in Australia/UK/NZ its generally not. Like I've said, sure, I'm usually going to be able to understand the context. But is a new poster? They don't know you're an aussie/brit/kiwi/etc, odds are they're american/canadian and get the wrong impression of the forum in general. And yeah, I probably should have had the rule not exempt aussies only, but rather the multitude of countries that use it. My goal was to have it out of the common areas where people from every country are mixing. For threads dealing with those countries where its considered acceptable, (project threads, discussions about cars in those countries, etc) I have no issue with people from those countries using it. Also, how the gently caress did that dumbass not know what a crowbar is? Thats the proper name of the tool!
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Jun 12, 2020 23:39
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This thread has made me want to watch Trainspotting again for the first time in over 20 years.
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Jun 12, 2020 23:42
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Trainspotting is a hard movie to watch. Opiates are a hell of a drug.
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Jun 12, 2020 23:47
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