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There are plenty of examples of command sending troops in to a meat grinder. If anything it led it to be more believable and a desperate attempt to me. Just look at Pickett's Charge or the majority of the trench fighting in WW1. Stupid decisions were everywhere.
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Sep 22, 2021 12:57
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swordfish duelist posted:There are plenty of examples of command sending troops in to a meat grinder. If anything it led it to be more believable and a desperate attempt to me. WW1 commanders would send thousands of dudes to their death then return a letter to command complaining that the men weren't trying hard enough.
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Sep 22, 2021 13:05
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I really don’t know how else to say it. Something being historically resonant doesn’t make it seem less stupid and unbelievable when you’re watching it through the lens of someone who has never seen more “war” than a few tense rounds of Starcraft. There was a way to write and direct that scene in such a way that would still lead Jin to make his poison choice, while also not making Uncle Ishimura look comically incompetent and stupid. If the point of the scene was to make Ishimura look comically incompetent and stupid, then it over succeeded by taking me out of the game and wondering how the Samurai weren’t totally wiped out 100 years ago by invaders simply running circles around a big tree Benny Hill style while all their samurai pants fall down. If I were a huge war nerd with the context of all world history behind me, maybe I would appreciate that scene more, but I’m not, and it drags the entire game down. Like, to the point that I tell people this game is a strong 9/10, the caveat being that the story gets really stupid and mopey.
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Sep 22, 2021 13:29
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*nodding along* Bust is right, no human general would lead their troops into certain death. no war has even been an enormous expensive quagmire with little to nothing to show for victory. no military commander has ever lost because of hubris. Now let’s check in on America’s last few wars — Hm, but surely if I look back through history nobody has ever lost a war stupidly— Hm this ‘Pillow’ guy made his troops embank on the unprotected side of a fortification during the Mexican American war??? What, this Lopez guy in Paraguay tried to declare war on every neighbor he had and his entire drat army died?? Hmm this Haig guy said ‘machine guns can’t be that bad’ when they were invented and lost 20,000 men??? *monocle popping off dramatically as he reads about Custer* Yngwie Mangosteen fucked around with this message at 14:47 on Sep 22, 2021 |
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Sep 22, 2021 14:42
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Literally the opposite of what I am saying. It being historically accurate does not mean it doesn’t seem incredibly, unbelievably stupid. I am not, nor have I have ever claimed that it isn’t how real generals or military leaders value human lives, my contention is that it LOOKS loving STUPID and ruins any tension because it means that Jin poisoning them in their sleep is actually the more merciful option because overall fewer people are dying. You’re all tripping over yourselves to be war nerds without actually reading what I’m posting, I literally do not care how many examples you have of generals consuming their own troops on an altar of blood, it’s DUMB Edit: if the point of the narrative is to establish some tension between honorable samurai and dishonorable ninjas, it fails, because the samurai are neither honorable nor intelligent. It defeats the purpose of the story making them idiots.
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Sep 22, 2021 15:13
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Lmao the game doesn’t try to be historically accurate. Hell, katanas did not exist at the time of the first mongol invasion.
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Sep 22, 2021 15:18
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Bust Rodd posted:If I were a huge war nerd with the context of all world history behind me, maybe I would appreciate that scene more I can't say this without sounding like a dick, but you really don't have to be a "huge war nerd" to know that commanders throwing men at the enemy like they were disposable is not some weird, freakishly rare thing that you have to have gone to West Point to know. You pretty much have to have consciously ignored or avoided history to not be aware of it. And even if that's the case, should the writers in the game remove story elements with strong ties to reality because some percentage of the players might be ignorant of that reality? I guess ultimately I don't understand why a headstrong man who had already led a suicidal charge into thousands of invaders pushing hard after a setback took you out of the game but foxes taking you to magic charms or a pissed off old lady cutting down bandits like she was loving Darth Maul didn't. Edit: Bust Rodd posted:You’re all tripping over yourselves to be war nerds without actually reading what I’m posting, I literally do not care how many examples you have of generals consuming their own troops on an altar of blood, it’s DUMB Of course it's dumb! That's the loving point! The game is not asking you to give equal weight to both men's point of view on that particular issue, it's pretty clearly saying that the old man is a loving idiot and it's time to make a clean break. Mr. Funny Pants fucked around with this message at 16:17 on Sep 22, 2021 |
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Sep 22, 2021 16:12
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Mr. Funny Pants posted:I can't say this without sounding like a dick, but you really don't have to be a "huge war nerd" to know that commanders throwing men at the enemy like they were disposable is not some weird, freakishly rare thing that you have to have gone to West Point to know. You pretty much have to have consciously ignored or avoided history to not be aware of it. And even if that's the case, should the writers in the game remove story elements with strong ties to reality because some percentage of the players might be ignorant of that reality? I don’t think you sound like a dick, thank you! I think something maybe I failed to communicate is that this isn’t news to me. This isn’t some massive revelation. Yes, I am perfectly aware this is how people fight wars, I was never under the impression that this was a unique moment in historical combat. All the examples you folks have provided are things I learned in High School, it’s not that I lack the historical context. It’s that the actual scene in the game of telling his army to run down a rickety wooded bridge that is actively exploding, watching everyone just get gibbed and turned into chili, and going “yes, YES, this is going to work eventually” just invites me to ask “how the gently caress did these idiots conquer Japan? Why hasn’t someone come here and pantsed these idiots sooner?” An old lady being good at swords or a happy magic fox seems perfectly at home in this light fantasy setting, because those things remain consistent throughout the world and don’t immediately cause you to ask questions. I know why foxes are magic spirits, it’s part of the lore, I know why this old lady is good at swords, she’s out for revenge. Uncle Ishimura’s “tactics” invited more questions for me than they answered. I’m ok tabling this since we’ve all repeated ourselves 50 times without getting anywhere… hey I guess I’m Ishimura after all!
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Sep 22, 2021 16:24
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Bust Rodd posted:You’re all tripping over yourselves to be war nerds without actually reading what I’m posting, I literally do not care how many examples you have of generals consuming their own troops on an altar of blood, it’s DUMB its not about being "war nerds" or even knowledge of history. human beings make stupid and irrational decisions all the time, in every era of history. if you personally don't like how it came across in the story thats fine, its personal taste, but acting like its objectively some kind of immersion breaking error is, imo, just as dumb Bust Rodd posted:just invites me to ask “how the gently caress did these idiots conquer Japan? Why hasn’t someone come here and pantsed these idiots sooner?” the dude you are complaining about did not conquer Japan, nor is he meant to be representative of the Japanese as a whole or even samurai as a whole. he's one individual person, making a bad decision. he's not meant to be a particularly powerful or important samurai, he's an obscure lord on a remote island. and his mentality is also affected by his already having been humiliated and captured in battle. Earwicker fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Sep 22, 2021 |
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Sep 22, 2021 17:34
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Bust Rodd posted:I’m ok tabling this since we’ve all repeated ourselves 50 times without getting anywhere… hey I guess I’m Ishimura after all! Fair enough.
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Sep 22, 2021 18:08
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I wish time/weather reset when restarting from checkpoints. As I'm replaying bases, if I restart it'll usually move time ahead and also usually change the weather after a couple attempts. Everything else resets perfectly unless you get too far in, including ammunition which is very much appreciated, but if you land on a cool combo of time of day and weather you have limited chances to make use of it.
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Sep 22, 2021 19:01
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Bust Rodd posted:If I were a huge war nerd with the context of all world history behind me, maybe I would appreciate that scene more, but I’m not, and it drags the entire game down. Like, to the point that I tell people this game is a strong 9/10, the caveat being that the story gets really stupid and mopey. Have you watched many samurai movies? This game exclusively just references almost 100 years of movie history. which themselves are over dramatic, selective re-tellings of stories (not necessarily the truth) from actual history. Back to weather chat - I didn't realise using more ghost weapons made it worse. i just wrapped up Iki island last night and felt like I was constantly playing my flute to make it sunny again. The problem with the rain and thunder in this game is, it's the first time I've ever played a video game or watched anything where my dogs thought the thunder was real. Something about the way they recorded it means it gets the dogs EVERY time and they start pacing around stressed because they think a storm is on the way, so every loving time it starts raining I have to get my dumb little flute out and play a stupid tune so I can play the game without my dogs trying to climb under the sofa. I had some frustrations with this game early on but its really got it's hooks in me now. I'm 70 hours in and methodically removing all question marks from the maps in acts 1 & 2, with iki already clear. gently caress the archery challenges though. cubicle gangster fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Sep 22, 2021 |
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Sep 22, 2021 19:17
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The first game that lets you pet any number of virtual animals at the expense of real ones
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Sep 22, 2021 19:18
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I have only watched the new Rurouni Kenshin movies, I’ve never seen a classic samurai movie. I think Westerns are boring and I figured they would just be like Westerns
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Sep 22, 2021 19:22
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A lot are similar, for sure. While not a movie per se, Shogun has less in common with westerns than, say, Yojimbo
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Sep 22, 2021 19:26
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Bust Rodd posted:I have only watched the new Rurouni Kenshin movies, I’ve never seen a classic samurai movie. I think Westerns are boring and I figured they would just be like Westerns That's an oversimplified view, but there are an absolute shitload of them. Kurosawa was mostly just making westerns, but he's also got a couple of movies that are from him transposing Shakespeare into samurai history. they're less dry than you may think. Quite a few samurai movies are critiques of rigid traditions and old ways of thinking - which when referenced in the game people are taking at face value. I would actually recommend 'ran' as a jumping-off point. it's in color, more modern than most, the scale is huge and it's got a good pace to it. It wouldn't be a bad idea to read up on any you plan to watch ahead of time about the subtext and what it's actually trying to say - with no familiarity with the genre there's no point making it harder to see what people like about them. cubicle gangster fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Sep 22, 2021 |
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Sep 22, 2021 19:35
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cubicle gangster posted:That's an oversimplified view, but there are an absolute shitload of them. Kurosawa was mostly just making westerns, but he's also got a couple of movies that are from him transposing Shakespeare into samurai history. they're less dry than you may think. Ran is probably my favorite Kurosawa flick after studying King Lear in college.
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Sep 22, 2021 20:15
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Despite any weird plot moments, Ghost of Tsushima is still an extremely good game, and one of the best titles on PS4/5.
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Sep 22, 2021 20:24
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Ghost of Tsushima wanting so hard to be a Kurosawa movie kind of works against it because the actual plot and characters doesn't really rise to that bar. I haven't watched a huge number of Kurosawa samurai movies but the 5 I have all cared more about stuff like considering the role of samurai in the societies (Seven Samurai), what Samurai say about themselves vs what they really are (Rashomon) and their interactions with the regular people (Seven, Hidden Fortress). Yojimbo and Sanjuro portray the nameless Ronin as a chaotic and unknowable force of disruption, who can unleash terrifying violence even when he's the good guy. This latter one is probably the one the game approaches the most but not really. Tsushima doesn't do enough to portray the rest of society other than 'poor wretches' and the conflict is between 'Should the old guard get out of the way and stop making reckless choices to allow the new guard in to make their own reckless choices?' Yuna doesn't really act like a voice of the common people, instead acting as a kind of outsider elite. Kurosawa would have done something else with her character to connect her more to the rest of the non-Samurai people of Tsushima. He also probably would have been more interested in what the Yarikawa clan helping Jin would mean given their hatred of Shimura. The pirate cove would have mattered at all or not been put in. Its a C Samurai plot attached to A++ video game graphical presentation and good feeling combat.
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Sep 22, 2021 21:02
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hiddenriverninja posted:Ran is probably my favorite Kurosawa flick after studying King Lear in college. Ran is a brilliant film. I'd put it up there with Lawrence of Arabia as one of my all time favorite films.
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Sep 23, 2021 02:40
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Shiroc posted:Ghost of Tsushima wanting so hard to be a Kurosawa movie kind of works against it because the actual plot and characters doesn't really rise to that bar. I haven't watched a huge number of Kurosawa samurai movies but the 5 I have all cared more about stuff like considering the role of samurai in the societies (Seven Samurai), what Samurai say about themselves vs what they really are (Rashomon) and their interactions with the regular people (Seven, Hidden Fortress). Yojimbo and Sanjuro portray the nameless Ronin as a chaotic and unknowable force of disruption, who can unleash terrifying violence even when he's the good guy. This latter one is probably the one the game approaches the most but not really. Also, retrofitting a black and white filter and being set in Japan does not make it a Kurosawa movie.
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Sep 23, 2021 02:47
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has anyone itt played Samurai Warriors 5? i know its a different genre from GoT but ive had some fun with older Dynasty Warrior games and the style looks cool and ive been reading a lot about Nobunaga et al lately and just wondering if people here thought it was fun and worth getting Earwicker fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Sep 23, 2021 |
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Sep 23, 2021 02:56
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Shiroc posted:Ghost of Tsushima wanting so hard to be a Kurosawa movie kind of works against it because the actual plot and characters doesn't really rise to that bar. I agree with all of your post - but even with the lack of substance, I feel like i'm getting a lot more out of the game having seen movies with much better stories.
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Sep 23, 2021 03:53
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On the topic of samurai movies 13 Assassins is awesome.
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Sep 23, 2021 03:55
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Bust Rodd posted:I have only watched the new Rurouni Kenshin movies, I’ve never seen a classic samurai movie. I think Westerns are boring and I figured they would just be like Westerns You can have both worlds with Last Man Standing, an old west retelling of Yojimbo by Kurowasa! ...Or the other couple dozen movies doing the same thing.
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Sep 23, 2021 06:14
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cubicle gangster posted:I agree with all of your post - but even with the lack of substance, I feel like i'm getting a lot more out of the game having seen movies with much better stories. Yeah, it has enough threads where it may have been going but doesn't fully commit with more context. I just wish it had gone for some of them. I've been thinking how the better comparison for the game than Assassin's Creed is more Spider-Man. Both Sony 1st party games with incredibly high production quality, good combat systems, some jank characterization, too long but also with oddly rushed third acts and with a bit too many generic open world activities. I think Spider-Man ultimately landed what it was going for more successfully than Tsushima, though I am biased for loving New York. The web swinging was an utter joy to me the whole time. Miles Morales being a more focused game with a new character let them refine a lot of the problems and get a tighter but really good game out of it. I haven't played Iki Island because I'm burned out on Tsushima and it sounds like more of the same without much refinement.
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Sep 23, 2021 06:53
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Lmao drat as a New YorkerI feel like the tiny Manhattan in Spider-Man feels like a playground for Spidey more than a real place, whereas Tsushima feels like a real place due to its wide variety of biomes and settlements and little explorable nooks and crannies. Manhattan is just a big sand-box full of architecture that functions as playground equipment, but Peter and Miles are very separated from the world around them, only really immersing themselves in the world as Spider-Men, but not as people. Both Jin & The Ghost get to actually live, work, and play on Tsushima.
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Sep 23, 2021 12:36
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Bust decrying a plot cause he's literally an ignorant dumbfuck
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Sep 23, 2021 16:05
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I'm into act 3 and I'll admit the constant thunderstorms make a little more thematic sense now that I'm Batman. Like, before it felt like the game was scolding me but now it feels like I'm striking terror into the hearts of mongols.
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Sep 24, 2021 14:35
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I didn't know it was related to play style either and just thought it was a stormy week on Tsushima With an exception for I swear there were a poo poo load of lightning strikes for legendary move areas and sometimes shrines
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Sep 24, 2021 15:05
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Yeah, overall I still feel like the lightning storms were too heavy handed since most people's reactions are, "WTF is up with the weather in this game?" rather than feeling the mood.
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Sep 24, 2021 15:18
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The game takes place in later summer, early fall right? Is there a monsoon/hurricane season for that little island?
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Sep 24, 2021 16:24
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When I lived in Japan one of the locals told me “Japan has 10 seasons and 8 of them are rainy” lmao I just remembered when he also said “Japan is a great place to live if you don’t mind being completely wiped out every 4-5 generations”
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Sep 24, 2021 17:05
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Love clearing out camps. Gotta take on one of the bigger ones at some point for a longer, meatier video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofZ6co9Xp-M
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Sep 24, 2021 17:21
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hazardousmouse posted:The game takes place in later summer, early fall right? Is there a monsoon/hurricane season for that little island? Before I realized it was related to my play style, I thought it was a lead up to how the Mongol invasion was halted in real life. By a kick rear end typhoon that hosed all their poo poo up.
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Sep 24, 2021 18:52
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Proteus Jones posted:Before I realized it was related to my play style, I thought it was a lead up to how the Mongol invasion was halted in real life. By a kick rear end typhoon that hosed all their poo poo up. I've honestly wondered if that was an inspiration. Like I said earlier, I also think it's too heavy-handed, but I could see where the devs were coming from if it was originally spawned from that idea.
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Sep 24, 2021 19:00
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I just assumed. The wind is your dad, the storm manifests as Mongols die, and it's probably like Fact #1 or #2 when it comes to knowing anything about Mongols invading Japan.
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Sep 24, 2021 20:53
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I did feel like the weather was the devs attempt at making the plot a little deeper than a puddle but they just didn't commit enough. I wrapped up the story last night - I felt it was appropriate and served it's influences well. I've got 10 camps left to knock off to eradicate the mongols. Had a great time - I'm 70 hours in and I've done a ton of side stuff. It's very rare that an open world game gets it's hooks in me like this. I was looking at the list for plat and thinking it felt kind of reasonable, but tonight in working through izuhara, if anything is going to make me put this down and give up it's the haikus. I don't know why I find them so hard to get through but the experience of slow panning to each line and how they're written is the visual/wordy equivalent of listening to someone drag their nails down a chalkboard. I don't get it, at all. Are these supposed to be 'proper' haikus? cubicle gangster fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Sep 25, 2021 |
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Sep 25, 2021 06:06
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No. I just browsed through my phone while pointing at random phrases and to ignore Jin's slow and meaningful reading of gibberish.
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Sep 25, 2021 06:25
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It's loving unbearable. I've done 2 while writing this post. I understand how a game with a budget like this ends up without subtext in it's narrative, but I don't understand how it ends up with such a poo poo side quest at this kind of scale. I don't even know how to communicate how I feel about it. If you can't get a poet, cut it from the game, I don't understand why you'd keep it in. cubicle gangster fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Sep 25, 2021 |
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Sep 25, 2021 06:47
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