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xerxus
Apr 24, 2010


Grimey Drawer

quote:

Adapt. That's what humans do, isn't it? Our great leg up. We roll. We hack. Knuckle down and change. Even Snowpiercer is an adaptation. That was classic Wilford. While the world froze and the other mega-rich tried to hole up in bunkers or upload their consciousness, Mr. Wilford dusted off his train set. Snowpiercer is His system. Systems resist change, even without their maker. I'm just a scientist. I'm here to save the world, not change it. I know our chances of surviving are slim at best. All I can do about that is provide small moments of happiness on Snowpiercer, 1,001 cars long.
Jinju

And they speculated that Wilford's radio signal might have come from the military or a private bunker in the first season finale.

Miles is learning about Life Systems. I wonder if he's holing up with Jinju somewhere.

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Ur Getting Fatter
Jun 9, 2007

Fast Food Fight



Grimey Drawer

I remember the reference to the bunkers but didn't they also say that even those would have failed by now? I might be misremembering that, though.

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.


Ur Getting Fatter posted:

I remember the reference to the bunkers but didn't they also say that even those would have failed by now? I might be misremembering that, though.

It was entirely speculative - iirc they was making the point that there was a good chance that the train might be the very last of humanity left, so they had to start acting like it. Not only does Snowpiercer move, it has a sustainable ecosystem, something that even Big Alice didn't have, so bunkers definitely wouldn't. Sustainability is the key.

In the film sustainability wasn't a big a concern for Wilford, and certain resources were already going 'extinct'. Ed Harris Wilford had starting using child labour instead of spare parts, because the engine had broken down so much due to lack of maintenance. And because of that, the train fails, and humanity most likely goes extinct.

So they're doing better than that!

OldMemes fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Feb 18, 2021

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


In season 3 news: Archie Panjabi's joining the show as a regular for Season 3, and the character's meant to be a top secret role, which I think suggests we're moving beyond the confines of the two trains. I wouldn't normally spoiler news like that, but it's pretty easy to read some future events from the show off the implication of the casting.

I also assume that we're going to get a train decoupling at some point. Having two separate trains would be a pretty good set-up for the show.

OldMemes posted:

In the film sustainability wasn't a big a concern for Wilford, and certain resources were already going 'extinct'. Ed Harris Wilford had starting using child labour instead of spare parts, because the engine had broken down so much due to lack of maintenance. And because of that, the train fails, and humanity most likely goes extinct.

That's not how I read the end of the film. Doesn't the symbolic appearance by the polar bear right at the end of the film suggest that there's still hope?

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.




Open Source Idiom posted:

In season 3 news: Archie Panjabi's joining the show as a regular for Season 3, and the character's meant to be a top secret role, which I think suggests we're moving beyond the confines of the two trains. I wouldn't normally spoiler news like that, but it's pretty easy to read some future events from the show off the implication of the casting.

I also assume that we're going to get a train decoupling at some point. Having two separate trains would be a pretty good set-up for the show.


That's not how I read the end of the film. Doesn't the symbolic appearance by the polar bear right at the end of the film suggest that there's still hope?
No: It suggests that the kids get eaten and humanity goes extinct.
I'm only half joking, though. Yes, that is what it suggests.

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


DaveKap posted:

No: It suggests that the kids get eaten and humanity goes extinct.
I'm only half joking, though. Yes, that is what it suggests.

I mean, yeah, that's a valid reading. But, either way, life goes on.

The Last Call
Sep 9, 2011






Open Source Idiom posted:

In season 3 news: Archie Panjabi's joining the show as a regular for Season 3, and the character's meant to be a top secret role, which I think suggests we're moving beyond the confines of the two trains. I wouldn't normally spoiler news like that, but it's pretty easy to read some future events from the show off the implication of the casting.

That's not how I read the end of the film. Doesn't the symbolic appearance by the polar bear right at the end of the film suggest that there's still hope?

Well Unless the kids find shelter and food they're basically dead. There's no real salvaging anything from the train and the odds of finding a place to bunker down aside the ruined pieces of train not on fire is virtually nil. So yeah, them some dead kids but the Earth will carry on and one day recover.



The TV show is awesome, Sean Bean plays the threat so drat well you really want to see what's coming to him.

One Nut Wonder
Mar 17, 2009


I was a little disappointed when I realized it was "Oiler Bob" instead of "Oily Bob".

Wheeee
Mar 11, 2001


in a future episode oiler bob lays down a perfectly placed oil slick causing layton and his men to go sliding all over, thus enabling wilford to escape their nefarious clutches

Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything




Fun Shoe

Open Source Idiom posted:

I also assume that we're going to get a train decoupling at some point. Having two separate trains would be a pretty good set-up for the show.

This feels unlikely just due to how much they've stressed that Snowpiercer can't keep going without Big Alice's engine boosting it.

I agree it would be fun plotwise. I just don't see them going that way.

Funny enough Snowpiercer colliding with another train and taking the new engine to replace its dying one is a plot point from the original French comic though the comic has no Wilford and more emphasis on survival than class struggle.

Mokinokaro fucked around with this message at 09:34 on Feb 18, 2021

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


Mokinokaro posted:

This feels unlikely just due to how much they've stressed that Snowpiercer can't keep going without Big Alice's engine boosting it.

I agree it would be fun plotwise. I just don't see them going that way.

I thought the problem was that Snowpiercer's battery had run out of power, and needed time to recharge. And now the two trains can't disconnect because of the fused border cars (and because too many people in key positions are invested in keeping them connected, since Snowpiercer could easily sacrifice a train car and keep going).

Though yeah, I think it's more likely that next season will expand by introducing outside parties, or some sort of colony.

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.




Open Source Idiom posted:

I thought the problem was that Snowpiercer's battery had run out of power, and needed time to recharge. And now the two trains can't disconnect because of the fused border cars (and because too many people in key positions are invested in keeping them connected, since Snowpiercer could easily sacrifice a train car and keep going).
It's this.

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.


The film ends with as far as we know, the last human refuge destroyed, with the two survivors out in the cold. Because rather than working together to solve problems film Snowpiercer had just become an unregulated mess, with WIlford living in luxury, rather than fixing anything.

It's basically what would have happened on the show Snowpiercer, had Melanie not pulled her switcharoo.

Z the IVth
Jan 28, 2009

The trouble with your "expendable machines"

Fun Shoe

DaveKap posted:

It's this.

Doesn't Snowpiercer also need the spare parts and supplies from Big Alice as well? They mentioned genetic stocks to regrow their cows.

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.


Z the IVth posted:

Doesn't Snowpiercer also need the spare parts and supplies from Big Alice as well? They mentioned genetic stocks to regrow their cows.

Yep, the engine can run forever, but the parts which make up the engine can break, as can other bits on the train. Knox wanted any parts off Big Alice to give them breathing room in case something breaks.

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.




Z the IVth posted:

Doesn't Snowpiercer also need the spare parts and supplies from Big Alice as well? They mentioned genetic stocks to regrow their cows.
That's the post-connection impetus to keep the trains together but initially Snowpiercer tried to outrun Big Alice. They'd rather be disconnected than connected. The only reason Mel forced them connected was to prevent Snowpiercer's death.

xerxus
Apr 24, 2010


Grimey Drawer

Till says it's been 2 weeks since Lights lost her fingers which happened in Episode 2.
Episode 3 was when Melanie leaves for the outpost when we were given the '2 weeks' mandate on Icy Bob by Wilford.

Zarah's fetus is said to be the size of a blueberry, which is traditionally about 7 weeks into pregnancy. As far as we know, the prenancy started in S1E2 when Zarah and Layton reunited.

The whole series has been less than two months!

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Not quite sure I get the master plan here.

xerxus
Apr 24, 2010


Grimey Drawer

It's a very weird plan for Wilford to kill the Breachmen, who are his most loyal supporters.

I think it's pretty obvious that the priest is the one behind the murders. I would guess that it's to further destabilize Layton's rule on Snowpiercer. People were pointing out that Layton's rule is tenuous, especially when the train sees him compromising.

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



I mean, killing the people who are experts on traversing the outside of the train might be useful. That kinda makes sense. But then were right back to them also being his devout supporters.

UltraShame
Nov 6, 2006

Vocabulum.

Hey DaveKap, who are the stabberinos in the last episode?

I don't expect a Mr Robot level of novella Post, but let us know what you think. (I have no idea)

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004




Grimey Drawer

What was that thing Steven Ogg killed the other dude with

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



Escobarbarian posted:

What was that thing Steven Ogg killed the other dude with

Isolation foam gun?

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.


Lena Hall is great this season. Were the colours more a bit more muted this episode, or was it just my PC?

Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything




Fun Shoe

No they were definitely going for a more somber lighting. It's especially noticeable in Wilford's quarters.

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.




UltraShame posted:

Hey DaveKap, who are the stabberinos in the last episode?

I don't expect a Mr Robot level of novella Post, but let us know what you think. (I have no idea)
lmao I kinda hate that I have any reputation because of my Mr Robot disappointment posts. I honestly have no loving clue what's going on. I can... type my thoughts as I think them, I suppose. I just finished the episode.

Near the end of the episode I was thinking "gently caress, this is the worst episode of the season" because I don't care about Till's internal issues, I don't care about the preacher who is definitely trying to usurp Layton while also being a Wilford disciple (and I hope we're all wrong about that because this show has, if anything, been phenomenal at subverting expectations [in a good way, not the Mr. Robot kind of way,]) I've thought since season 1 that Audrey was a weak character and still do now because she's primarily a "holds all her cards so close that not even the viewer knows wtf her motives or expectations are," and I really hate body horror so every scene with Josie is wince-city for me.

But despite that, it's not all bad. I never thought I would hear "Because I Got High" again after Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back left theaters. It was actually pretty welcome.
I was rooting for Pike to not die because Steven Ogg rules and seeing him just loving act this episode was a treat. Though I'm kinda sad that Layton feels the need to keep Pike so under the radar that he has to staple his head instead of giving him proper health care. Poor Pike.
If you didn't completely digest the subtext of Alex and her friend talking about the jealousy felt by a book character, maybe go listen to that again. Poor ladies just can't admit their feelings to each other.
It's nice to see that Icy Bob is just a big ol' teddy bear of a guy. I feel like brainless mutants don't really belong in this show. I do wonder if he's only shown that side of himself to Josie and if everyone else thinks he is a brainless mutant. That'd be a fun thing to spring on people later.
Not really sad to see Terrance go. I feel like his character has been kinda wasted because he's never really done anything to positively elevate the train while uninterestingly playing the heel role. I also feel like he could've chewed up some scenes if he was written better but we didn't get any of it this season. Bye Terrance, you died in a pretty cool way!
It was very interesting to see how well Ruth was handling the truth that Melanie lied to her for hope's sake, now that she's in the same position. Ruth character growth is a very nice thing to see.

And then the end of the episode hit and I was back on board for the ride. If you've seen Breaking Bad, you may have had some similar vibes to the Gliding Over All episode; one of my favorite scenes in Breaking Bad (which was based off Goodfellas, btw.) It was short but it was fun. And we get to keep Boki!

So, who are the stabberinos? Your guess is as good as mine. Pretty sure they're all just a part of the preacher's flock, it's not like he only serves the Breachmen. It's cute to see that one of them opened up the Breachman door just in time for Layton to be able to rush in. Perhaps their ease of access is a hint? Or they just got codes from Wilford. Or maybe they're all janitorial so they have all the access and they abandoned Terrance because they're now loyal to the preacher? There's a few ways it can go.

Welp, I didn't think I'd write this much. So now that I've digested more while writing this, what's going on? Overall it seems like this is the inflection point for Layton's leadership, a point which Wilford is trying to exploit. Pike's doing things for Layton he doesn't want to, Till feels like she's not being taken seriously, Ruth feels like she's being ignored, and Layton's living and eating nice while Tailies are still in the Tail. Not that Wilford should know all of this as it's happening but he's pulling off his plan at the perfect time. Everyone knows the Breachmen are suspected of mutilating a Tailie, everyone knows Breachmen are loyal to Wilfred, so if the Breachmen all end up dead, everyone knows it's Layton's fault. It's hard to know if Wilford's being a secret genius whose previous failures were all according to plan or if he's just lucky because he's tried multiple things and this is the first one that might work. To be honest, in a proper war, both sides get their jabs in, so this just being a Wilford plan that works is fine without it being a master plan, it's just really amazing he timed it so perfectly.

So... yeah, that makes sense. Destabilize Snowpiercer by breaking down the population's trust in Layton. Blame can't be placed on Wilford because the murdered are his most loyal followers. While everyone hates their current leader, usher yourself in through religious means while the famous, popular, beautiful peacekeeper of the middle class, Audrey, is by your side. I don't know if it was on purpose but I think Wilford let himself be submissive with Audrey early to make her think she wouldn't be under his control once she was invited to Big Alice, which is a decent play against her character's inability to be transparent to the audience. We have no idea why she's staying with him now other than "because he is good at controlling her." Is she long-conning him? Maybe! Hard to know!

Final thoughts? Layton being brought down means Melanie's "reputation rehabilitation" might land her back in a leadership position again. I look forward to getting her back.

gently caress. Mr. Robot novella. Sorry, thread! (If it wasn't obvious, this is probably my favorite show of the year. That's the only way I make posts this big.)

DaveKap fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Feb 24, 2021

UltraShame
Nov 6, 2006

Vocabulum.

Janitors does make a lot of sense, LJ even remarks an episode or two earlier that "janitors can go anywhere on the train" - that would explain the access. The preacher usurping Terrance's role might also be it.

Also if I didn't want an effortpost I wouldn't have asked. Your Mr Robot posts were/are fine!

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.




Ha, thanks. Yeah, janitorial switching to being preacher goons seems the most likely route to me, especially when you consider Terrance on his high throne is way more abandonable than a preacher with a teacup.

Another wrinkle in everything is Josie's existence straining Layton's relationship with his baby mama. Josie's message may now be perceived as being false, so is she being fed false information or is she providing false information? Trust gets shaken through all of this. There actually may be too many moving parts to this situation; I wouldn't be surprised if one or two of them just get outright dropped or resolved in the first few minutes of the next episode.

This is just reminding me of how much this show loves its grey areas. drat what a good show.

DaveKap fucked around with this message at 02:46 on Feb 24, 2021

Open Source Idiom
Jan 4, 2013


Thorts, episode the fifth:

- I feel like Layton trying to get Miss A to bend Mr W's ear about anything is utterly doomed. W gets off on suicide and conspicuous consumption, he's not going to care.
- Josie hiding messages in the hollowed out stump of her arm is this week's most metal image.
- On top of having an newly remixed version of opening credits theme this year, they've been layering new tracks over the music depending on who does the opening monologue. e.g. Wilford gets a hammer and anvil track, Miss Audrey had a music box track. Josie gets just the base version though.
- Death by bookclub. Did everyone notice the way the conversation suddenly picked up the moment Wilfred
- And of course they're reading Rebecca. Suggestive as to what's going to trouble Wilford's rule of Snowpiercer.
- "Her PINGS do wonderful things for morale." I like that they're putting Ruth right into Melanie's season 1 position, except now she's pretending Melanie's alive and coming back for them. Of course, that kind of "adversity forces us to compromise and that compromise proves that our middle class hang ups were nave" thing works with Ruth so much better than it does with Layton.
- I just can't believe that Layton would immediately work to maintain the previous order, despite Wilford's reappearance. Why is first class still a thing???
- I'm trying to work out if it's impossible or just unlikely that two characters on the train could be boxers and not known about it. There's only one place they could practice.
- next week looks like we're getting a dream episode. I've only seen that work once or twice, so I'm bracing myself.
- genuinely surprised that Melanie's Daughter and the last Western Australian aren't (yet) a couple.
- and it's the priest. Called it the moment he appeared.

Mokinokaro posted:

No they were definitely going for a more somber lighting. It's especially noticeable in Wilford's quarters.

There's been a big changeover behind the scenes -- new design team, new lighting team, new composer too.

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.




OH I finally remembered something that I failed to mention a couple pages back. I think there was some discussion about how the sets are designed and little attention to detail things. One of the things I noticed was a shot of First Class where the chandelier was swaying back and forth. There wasn't any turbulence via the plot, it was just ambient swaying because they're on a train. I feel like an average production team wouldn't even bother with that.

Open Source Idiom posted:

- I just can't believe that Layton would immediately work to maintain the previous order, despite Wilford's reappearance. Why is first class still a thing???
If you look at all the first class scenes where Layton is eating or chilling out (not during any special events) you'll see some poorly dressed folks around. First class isn't exclusive, even though it might seem that way.

Hakkesshu
Nov 3, 2009



Icy Bob being such a sweetheart was nice

Shame about the people he murdered

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



DaveKap posted:

If you look at all the first class scenes where Layton is eating or chilling out (not during any special events) you'll see some poorly dressed folks around. First class isn't exclusive, even though it might seem that way.

I mean they didn't really have time to change much. First class has pretty much been ended (by most of them and their goon-squad being dead) but second, third and tail are all still things. People can now access more of the train and it's heavily alluded food is now better distributed, but everyone still have mostly the same jobs as before on account of the immediate crisis.

MiddleOne fucked around with this message at 16:13 on Feb 24, 2021

Pajser
Jan 28, 2006


Open Source Idiom posted:

Thorts, episode the fifth:

- genuinely surprised that Melanie's Daughter and the last Western Australian aren't (yet) a couple.


I don't get this sentiment. Alex is just a very sheltered teen who tends to act possessively towards the ones she's close to. Because she has been raised by fascist Sean Bean exclusively to be a bargaining chip.

I like this show, though. It tends to throw good curve balls quite frequently.

The Last Call
Sep 9, 2011






That was a great episode, mostly because we got to see so much of various characters that expanded them beyond the role they normally played. Look at Ruth, who didn't think she would immediately join with Wilford only for her to prove she's loyal to the train and it's people, she genuinely cares about both and will do what she can, I can see why she's frustrated with Layton not trusting her where she might actually be the most trustworthy person to have supporting him if he let her. She's become one of my favourite characters. Then you got Pike who is traumatized and feels he owns Layton but really doesn't want to kill anyone, he does it out of a sense of debt and it's bothering him, hence why he gave the guy a knife for a fair chance. Pike shaving his head and beard shows he's in a bad place and depending on what happens if he ends up revealing Layton had him kill that might throw things upside down costing Layton his leadership role. Finally we had Bob, big scarred scary Bob and.......he's a nice guy? Okay did not see that coming at all. He's been put through hell and hates to see anyone else suffer, that's clear. It's interesting that he didn't rat Josie out, you got to wonder how many people on Big Alice really like Wilford or are following him simply out of fear, I'm going with the latter. It might be the case he has more loyal supporters on Snowpiercer than he does on Big Alice, if he died those on his end would likely cheer and be happy. You know, Return of the Jedi type ewok type celebration going on. Agreed with everyone else, it's the priest that's behind things, that's a given after this latest episode. The Breachmen were a red herring both for us and Layton, Wilford is very much up to something on that end and it involves Bob. So why have the breach men killed? First I thought he was going to have Bob go and kill Melanie out in the cold, now I believe he's going to have Bob cross the top of the train to the front and attempt to breach it, kill the engineers and take control with a little rewiring. Wilford might have been worried that Layton through hook or crook might get the breach men to counter Bob and wanted them removed to eliminate the possibility. That and his real supporters are simply waiting for the take over to begin before striking and no one has a clue.

The Last Call fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Feb 24, 2021

ilmucche
Mar 16, 2016

#essereFerrari



I thought the last australian was into the other last australian

OldMemes
Sep 5, 2011

I have to go now. My planet needs me.


Overthrowing first class wasn't about a literal "eat the rich" thing, but sharing out resources evenly, giving everyone equal treatment under the law and letting people move up and down the train freely. Everyone still has jobs and a role and a bunk, it's just fairer. They did show in the first season that some of the first class passengers supported that, they were just outnumbered by the ones who didn't.

Icy Bob being chill (the pun!) was cool, since they'd only shown him as a huge muscle bound screaming man so far. This show is good at subverting your expectations - like you except Pike to be a bad guy (since Ogg mainly plays them), but he's just a bit of an anti-hero with a selfish streak.

I'm guessing Melanie is fine, and we'll probably have an episode soon largely from her POV to fill in the narrative blanks.

The mention of bees - I thought they said the colony collapsed? I don't know much about how bees work, can they recover from that?

The Last Call
Sep 9, 2011






They might have several hives and separated them to see if they could get them to make a comeback and isolate any that might have been infected or failing.

DaveKap
Feb 5, 2006

Pickle: Inspected.




The bees were failing but there was never a confirmed collapse, as far as I know.
Alex and Australian might be a couple and we don't know it because they haven't shown them being affectionate yet. It's hard to say.
The two Australians are definitely into each other.
I forgot to point out another nice thing was Ruth being remorseful for the poo poo she would pull in the Tail back in the old days. It's amazing how they grew her in a single episode.
Most of Big Alice is definitely just full on afraid of Wilford. Everyone's afraid to talk during book club specifically because they don't want to accidentally give the wrong opinion.
Some of overthrowing the first class was eat the rich, some was proper distribution and "One Train" ideology. You kinda have to have a little of both to rally all the troops.

Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything




Fun Shoe

OldMemes posted:

Icy Bob being chill (the pun!) was cool, since they'd only shown him as a huge muscle bound screaming man so far. This show is good at subverting your expectations - like you except Pike to be a bad guy (since Ogg mainly plays them), but he's just a bit of an anti-hero with a selfish streak.

And fairly intelligent I'm guessing since they highlighted him being a reader. They also really stressed that he fears Wilford and the doctors. Could be setting up a face turn if the conditions are right.

I really like the doctors since they seem at most amoral and not actually evil. Really they've made a lot of the Big Alice folks sympathetic save maybe for Sykes?

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The Last Call
Sep 9, 2011






I really want to see Bob join the other side and stay as a cast member, he could add so much now that we've seen another side of him. Almost everyone on Big Alice don't appear to be bad people except for Wilford himself, at worse the rest appear to be captivated by Wilfords cult of personality as it were. They certainly don't seem any worse than some people on Snowpiercer that we've seen.

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