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RatHat
Dec 31, 2007


God-loving-damnit Jesse.

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morallyobjected
Nov 3, 2012


el oso posted:

Is there any way to download the OST to anything that's NOT the PS4 if you pre-ordered the deluxe version?

if it's like other games, probably not. you can transfer it to a USB stick though, I think, and get it to a computer that way. at least I did that with the TLOU1 soundtrack back in the day

Jetrauben
Sep 7, 2011

Yelling at clouds.

RatHat posted:

God-loving-damnit Jesse.

What in particular?

Also, is it just me who's noticed just how much more friendly and comfortable and functional Abby's conversations with her friends are, while even talking with her buddies Ellie is melancholic, depressed and unhappy-seeming at seemingly all times?

Hell, even Lev, despite being from a faction she's been out to kill the entire game and who were raised to kill her since seemingly birth, is almost immediately Uncharted-level friendly banter.

Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 06:00 on Jul 6, 2020

BitBasher
Jun 6, 2004

You've got to know the rules before you can break 'em. Otherwise, it's no fun.

Jetrauben posted:

What in particular?

Also, is it just me who's noticed just how much more friendly and comfortable and functional Abby's conversations with her friends are, while even talking with her buddies Ellie is melancholic, depressed and unhappy-seeming at seemingly all times?

Hell, even Lev, despite being from a faction she's been out to kill the entire game and who were raised to kill her since seemingly birth, is almost immediately Uncharted-level friendly banter.


The way Ellie's game starts all kinds of people in the town happily greet Ellie just like they greet Abbie walking through the base as far as I could tell. Ellie's start is after she had some uncomfortable poo poo go down the very previous night at a party that she seemed possibly hung over from. Also seeing that she wasn't feeling good about what with her making out with her friends recent ex and all, and Joel starting some poo poo after someone made a comment. With Abbie it's just another day where nothing particular has gone down in the last few days except that she had to bunk elsewhere so her buddy could get laid? The townspeople treated Ellie perfectly fine and the one person that made an off screen comment to her got dressed down by his own wife who took Ellies side. The man apologized, and from body language and demeanor seemed legitimately ashamed of his behavior.

The two can't really be compared easily when we first met them because the two seem to be waking up from two very different experiences the previous night.

Jetrauben
Sep 7, 2011

Yelling at clouds.

BitBasher posted:

The way Ellie's game starts all kinds of people in the town happily greet Ellie just like they greet Abbie walking through the base as far as I could tell. Ellie's start is after she had some uncomfortable poo poo go down the very previous night at a party that she seemed possibly hung over from. Also seeing that she wasn't feeling good about what with her making out with her friends recent ex and all, and Joel starting some poo poo after someone made a comment. With Abbie it's just another day where nothing particular has gone down in the last few days except that she had to bunk elsewhere so her buddy could get laid? The townspeople treated Ellie perfectly fine and the one person that made an off screen comment to her got dressed down by his own wife who took Ellies side. The man apologized, and from body language and demeanor seemed legitimately ashamed of his behavior.

The two can't really be compared easily when we first met them because the two seem to be waking up from two very different experiences the previous night.


Yeah, I think like...

Ok, the way I'd put it is this way: It feels like Ellie and Abby inhabit different narrative worlds. Ellie inhabits an even darker descent into damnation than the first Last of Us, where violence is horrific and scarring, clean consciences are a rarity, and everyone is a traumatized wreck. Isolation is constant (because she naturally leaves her supportive community early on!) and damning.

Abby - so far - lives in a slightly gloomier post-apocalyptic Uncharted, where folks crack jokes and make friends quickly and violence is just How You Solve Assholes.

I've mentioned before how much Abby feels infinitely more empowering and badass than Ellie, whose stealth-oriented gameplay and mostly strictly weaker tools make playing her feel ugly, desperate and frenzied, and facing aggressively humanized and extremely diverse mooks. Abby, by contrast, is a badass shooting at absolutely justified targets: a bunch of transphobic, primitivist religious fanatics who are largely undeserving of pity. Her game opens with an action-heavy badass running shootout while accompanied by friends and even a drat dog.

(Now it's possible I'm assuming that their transphobia and child-bride practices are more condemnatory than the game feels they are.)

Ellie's interactions even with Dina and Jessie, her close friends, are awkward and uncomfortable throughout the game so far, because Ellie is herself a deeply depressed and insecure person. Abby, by contrast, gets super open and friendly interactions with a large cast of quirky easygoing youngsters. She gets a rapid succession barrage of soft sweet interludes of meet cute/cute dates, and once she meets Lev and Yara she - again, in an almost Uncharted-level turn - immediately decides she needs to Make Up For Her Wrongs, and forms an easy cameraderie with a boy who has Gone Through Some Awful poo poo from a faction who have been practically raised since birth to hate and distrust all outsiders. The end result is an opening that feels far more "optimistic" and good-feeling than even the first Last of Us.

And that's obviously deliberate, of course. But it's also weird when you know it's happening.

Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Jul 6, 2020

BeanpolePeckerwood
May 4, 2004

BUT SATAN'S BOY
I COULD NEVER BE!



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Jetrauben posted:


Honestly at this point, it's not even funny how vastly different the gameplay experience is between Abby and Ellie? Abby is just hilariously better armed and better prepared, has a lot more company and friends, and it makes fighting as her a LOT less stressful than Ellie's angst-ridden Predator. She really does basically play like Joel, which is of course partly an authorial statement, but also is very much designed to make her feel stronger and less uncomfortable.

The game absolutely wants you to like being Abby, so as to sway you away from your impulsive distaste for her - a distaste that Owen shares, so, I'll give the man credit for recognizing that Abby beating the poo poo out of a man until he was soaked in piss and blood was hosed Up.

But apparently not hosed Up enough to not immediately gently caress her![/spoiler]

I'd really have to disagree here. After discussing this poo poo w/r/t newgame+ on survivor with another TLOU factions veteran, Ellie is the one who comes off more prepared and fleshed out in combat. Mollies, nailbombs, and explosive arrows are an incredible arsenal, and Ellie has skills for quicker stealth kills AND 'last chance' hit survival type scenarios, not to mention she doesn't have to divert parts away from her melee weapon in order to craft shivs for all this business. Ellie hands down has more options and anything to the contrary is just projection imo; Abby was put together the way she is to kind of demonstrate a bit of an accelerating difficulty arc in the 2nd half with fewer options on purpose.

Also Owen is completely in love with Abby the whole way through, no exception. I don't think you're reading the room all that well here lol

XtraSmiley
Oct 4, 2002



Hemish posted:

Well, what a game. My playthrough took 31 hours and I'm kind of bummed that I don't have more time in this universe and these characters.

I avoided all the leaks, only got spoiled that a trans character existed (didn't know who) when I decided that I needed to stay off gaming websites I usually frequent and I know better than to check a SA thread expecting to not get spoiled by accident, by morons or some poor sap who messes up their spoilers tag. I don't even watch movies/games trailers to avoid any spoilers so everything was new to me while playing. It was great. I pretty much read the whole thread and it's been discussed a lot and lots of people are sharing their interpretations of events/endings/etc... so I'll do something different while touching a bit on those parts.

I was always a PC gamer but owned pretty much all consoles of each generations even if I ended up not playing much and somehow missing big games sometimes. In 2017 I think I was looking at PS4 games and I don't know how The Last of Us Remastered got on my radar but it did and it blew me away. I got really attached to Joel and Ellie through the journey in this hosed up world and interesting universe/setting and while I don't have children, I don't think I was too far off Joel's age at 36 when I played it and I really "bonded" with Ellie like he did. He wanted nothing to do with this at the beginning while Ellie was just this NPC to me but as you go through this journey, I changed alongside Joel. The banter, dialogue, events really make you care for Ellie. I mean poo poo, I don't know if Joel does that right away as I can't remember but at some point I noticed that when you stealth and take cover, when you're in the same tile as her, Joel kind of shield/cover Ellie with his body. Also, at some point in the game, Joel gets sick and they gave me control of Ellie for what I thought was a few minutes of just a segment but no, you play as this 14 -15 years old having to survive by herself and doing bad poo poo in the process. That's when I knew Ellie was now part of my fictive family while immersed in this world.

All of that to say that I came in Part 2 caring about this older Ellie before the game even started. I played the first game so I knew that she can't be a normal person in this world on top of all the bad poo poo that happened to her and what she did to survive. That's why, in Day 3 or post day 3, when you take control of Abby, I was a bit miffed that I couldn't continue playing as Ellie and since I didn't like Abby in the first place, I had an "awww poo poo" moment. The fact that you start from scratch to level her up and how long Day 1 as her was taking made me realize they'd make me play all 3 days to catch up to Ellie's story. I didn't like that I couldn't play with all my new cool toys I now had with Ellie but mostly I wanted more Ellie stuff since I wasn't invested in Abby like Ellie when it happened in the first game. Both Ellie and Abby are not nice persons so even knowing what happened with Abby, I didn't switch gear and think Abby is the "good guy" and Ellie is now the villain, it didn't change my stances that both are hosed up. I knew those ex fireflies were not totally evil like the last group you encounter in California so it didn't make me care more about Abby and her friends but I ended up enjoying day 2 and 3 with her. I really liked her design, though, I was always amazed at how buff and strong she was and kept thinking it ruled as I can't remember playing this kind of women who can bench press a 180lbs man before. I like how she almost turns into Joel protecting youths but can people really bond that strong in 1.5 day? I liked her progression in that regard but the time frame on it doesn't work for me.

That's also why, without going into more details or spoilers, when Ellie she does stuff that seems wrong or erratic (or not like you'd want to play as a player), I kinda get it and I can easily explain it because she's hosed up mentally (all that trauma) and doesn't know any different. Am I the only one in this situation where you know Ellie was flawed before Part 2 starts so you just roll with it? I see a lot of mention of people changing opinions after the spoiler stuff above.

Ending spoiler : That's why I like the ending but like the first game, I really want to continue the story and see where it would go. I care for Ellie and I was sure she was going to die or totally turn from the light for good so I was really relived when she stops herself from killing Abby when she finally sees Joel's normal face and not his hosed up post golf club one for the first time since his brutal killing and that's when you know she now just gave up her revenge for good. Tommy is a bastard for doing this to Ellie and guilt her to rekindle her mission but with all the trauma, PTSD and stuff, I don't think she would be able to let go at the dream house without the ending we got. Yeah, Dina's dream life on that farm is ruined but her vengeance is over so she can either stay broken in all other aspects or she can try to heal a bit. She also lost her last piece of Joel to this quest, the guitar playing, it broke my heart a bit when she finds out she can't play but for me is when she leaves Joel's guitar behind before leaving the house that clinched it and it clicks that this drat quest for revenge robbed her of everything she had left of Joel aside from memories.

Future game wish : If they make a third game, I'd like to have a bit of hope this time where Ellie was able to heal somewhat, maybe joined with Abby/Lev to find a cure (not a vaccine) to heal people who haven't turned or to get rid of infected growth/spores to start cleansing the world. Heck, a quest to start healing the world would be nice. Maybe Ellie is 35 and you play as her protégé... Characters trying to go against this world where every factions just kill each other with no real thoughts, trying to bring real change (fail if you want to keep the depressing world but at least have a pure motive for the game objective this time).

Well this turned out way longer than I thought and I guess people won't read when they see this wall of text. I play a lot of games and rarely they make me want to talk about them as much as this one. Sadly, none of my friends are interested in these kind of narative games so I have nobody to discuss them.

This game looks amazing, sounds amazing, is long, a good story all things considered as I've read worse stuff and games often have low bars on that front, stealth but I suck so I need to adapt when I get caught/exploration/crafting is totally my jam, etc... I wouldn't say 10/10 because its not perfect but I'm glad I played a sequel for The Last of Us and it didn't suck for me so I really appreciated those 31 hours which is what a game is for in the end.

I read your wall! If you lived near STL I'd go out for drinks so we could chat!

Wow, it didn't click for me, that part in the ending, but after reading your post, it hits home even harder. Thanks!

I hope there is one more sequel, with an uplifting story to finish the series off with.

I'm working my way toward the Platinum trophy now, it's fun seeing the scenes again so quickly after beating the game the first time. They still seem like a lifetime ago though!

Jetrauben
Sep 7, 2011

Yelling at clouds.

BeanpolePeckerwood posted:

I'd really have to disagree here. After discussing this poo poo w/r/t newgame+ on survivor with another TLOU factions veteran, Ellie is the one who comes off more prepared and fleshed out in combat. Mollies, nailbombs, and explosive arrows are an incredible arsenal, and Ellie has skills for quicker stealth kills AND 'last chance' hit survival type scenarios, not to mention she doesn't have to divert parts away from her melee weapon in order to craft shivs for all this business. Ellie hands down has more options and anything to the contrary is just projection imo; Abby was put together the way she is to kind of demonstrate a bit of an accelerating difficulty arc in the 2nd half with fewer options on purpose.

Also Owen is completely in love with Abby the whole way through, no exception. I don't think you're reading the room all that well here lol


Is it weird I largely find Abby's toolkit a lot more useful, and doubly so given it encourages stand-up fights over ugly knife-murdering from bushes?

And yeah, I know Owen loves Abby, I just think it's pretty scummy of him and undermines his whole moral putting on airs, heh.

BeanpolePeckerwood
May 4, 2004

BUT SATAN'S BOY
I COULD NEVER BE!



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Jetrauben posted:

What in particular?

Also, is it just me who's noticed just how much more friendly and comfortable and functional Abby's conversations with her friends are, while even talking with her buddies Ellie is melancholic, depressed and unhappy-seeming at seemingly all times?

Hell, even Lev, despite being from a faction she's been out to kill the entire game and who were raised to kill her since seemingly birth, is almost immediately Uncharted-level friendly banter.


Yes, this is the point.

BeanpolePeckerwood
May 4, 2004

BUT SATAN'S BOY
I COULD NEVER BE!



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Jetrauben posted:

Is it weird I largely find Abby's toolkit a lot more useful, and doubly so given it encourages stand-up fights over ugly knife-murdering from bushes?

I mean, it's not exactly weird. The themes of the story are woven with the mechanics, but you are projecting.

Jetrauben
Sep 7, 2011

Yelling at clouds.

BeanpolePeckerwood posted:

Yes, this is the point.

I'm aware, as I said above, it's just...

It's an interesting trick, and one I simultaneously admire the craft of and also actually kind of resent to see the strings pulling me. As I said above, it feels like it tries to get you to like Abby and forget the monstrous thing she started the game doing - betrayal and torture of a man who saved her life, even leaving aside my requisite gently caress The Fireflies and Jerry Too opinion - by basically submerging you into more comfortable narrative universes than Ellie inhabits, because it can't do so otherwise. It's switching the trappings of its moral universe rather than actually breaking it down into a complex set of discussions of comparative ethical or emotional stances.

Like, it's a neat bit of storytelling shorthand and masteful ludonarrative synthesis, but I'm really not sure I agree with what it's trying to get me to feel, and it does end up leaving a weird bad taste in my mouth.

Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 06:55 on Jul 6, 2020

BeanpolePeckerwood
May 4, 2004

BUT SATAN'S BOY
I COULD NEVER BE!



Pork Pro

I mean for sure the game is using Von Trier levels of provocation at times; audience manipulation often engenders varying degrees of respect and resentment depending on the individual and their particular relationship with both cinematic language and narrative symbolism.

BeanpolePeckerwood
May 4, 2004

BUT SATAN'S BOY
I COULD NEVER BE!



Pork Pro

Jetrauben posted:

ludonarrative synthesis

omg, I'm like weirdly happy to see this term I have no idea why

Jetrauben
Sep 7, 2011

Yelling at clouds.

BeanpolePeckerwood posted:

I mean for sure the game is using Von Trier levels of provocation at times; audience manipulation often engenders varying degrees of respect and resentment depending on the individual and their particular relationship with both cinematic language and narrative symbolism.

Basically, so far...

It feels as much that the game is condemning Ellie's understandable reaction to a horrific murder, and her general depression, because she inexplicably lives in a world about three steps further down the Grimdark Spectrum than Abby, as it does because of the actual moral standings of the respective women, because Abby only seems healthier and more pleasant because she's got a larger and more supportive community during the course of the game. She and her friends absolutely deserve payback, under the very laws of vendetta they themselves followed to kill Joel.

Abby is seemingly just more "morally superior" because she's less depressed, in the eyes of the game, and happened to acquire an objective moral good of a quest in protecting Lev from bigots.


BeanpolePeckerwood posted:

omg, I'm like weirdly happy to see this term I have no idea why

Hey, I appreciate good design-as-storytelling-tool. It's just harder to be entirely on board with it when you're cognizant of the manipulation and feel ambivalent about the conclusion. But the craft? Masterful.

Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 07:04 on Jul 6, 2020

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Jetrauben
Sep 7, 2011

Yelling at clouds.

Welp, finally reached the hospital as Abby.

I'm sure the game *wants* me to have felt real bad about having killed these dudes, but joke's on you, game, my Ellie stealthed by these guys and their dog! Yeah, that's right game, you got NOTHING on me, you can't guilt me with a dog-with-the-same-name-as-my-old-dog's adorable face as Abby pets him, you jerks, because *I* cunningly snuck by the entire patrol with great difficulty. I feel NO guilt! Bear LIVES in my playthrough!

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