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Shammy, it kind of seems like all your interpretations of Ellie are couched in this sense that the game is lying to you or otherwise showing you something that you find to be inauthentic, despite the game not ever employing “unreliable narration” or other tropes that would support the idea that the game is showing us and telling us things that we should doubt. There’s a difference between having a different interpretation of events and looking at the objective events of the game and just going “nah”, so I’m just curious why you seem convinced that the game is showing/telling you something different than what is happening. Also just because the beach is the climax of Ellie’s story doesn’t mean it’s not ALSO the climax of Abby’s story. Her refusal to give up and just gracelessly fall upon Ellie’s knife is a tribute to her strength and resilience, absolutely! But Ellie is still clearly making a decision here not to finish the job, it’s not that Abby’s “will to live” wore her down.
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Mar 8, 2021 12:53
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Bust Rodd posted:Shammy, it kind of seems like all your interpretations of Ellie are couched in this sense that the game is lying to you or otherwise showing you something that you find to be inauthentic, despite the game not ever employing “unreliable narration” or other tropes that would support the idea that the game is showing us and telling us things that we should doubt. There’s a difference between having a different interpretation of events and looking at the objective events of the game and just going “nah”, so I’m just curious why you seem convinced that the game is showing/telling you something different than what is happening. Ya I don't think "subtle" is a word anyone would use to describe the story, characters, or motivations in this game. Most of the legit criticisms of the game were how heavy-handed the themes were. lovely Youtubers/gamergaters are the ones whose anger at the game comes from not getting the game or characters that they wanted. Ellie is supposed to be a "bad" person, or at the very least complicated. Same as Joel. And Abby does NOT play the "good guy" in the game. She's also a legit bad person and Mel is absolutely right for not giving her a pass at the beginning of the third day.
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Mar 8, 2021 15:33
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The one thing I really couldn't get over in the game in terms of nonsense writing is that they sent a woman as pregnant as Mel to the front lines in a war with sadistic cultists in the first place. This is the post-apocalypse, the WLF has a secure, nigh impenetrable base of operations at the stadium with hundreds, if not thousands, of capable fighters by the looks of things. It makes zero sense to me that a pregnant woman, soldier or not, wouldn't be taken off any and all duty rosters until she's at least had the kid. She isn't like, a few months into the pregnancy where she'll be okay to keep up, she's in like, the 7th or 8th month with a massive baby bump pregnant. You'd think pregnant women would be top of the line priority for protecting in a world where the human race is facing extinction.
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Mar 8, 2021 15:42
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That wasn't really the front lines, though. They are ambushed almost immediately once they're out. They also mentioned attacks further in but I don't think they were expecting to be hit so far into their territory. She's also a medic who can still serve and do good in the outpost they were heading to (or was it just a patrol they were going out for, I forget)
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Mar 8, 2021 15:46
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Wasn't it just supposed to be Abby and Manny shipping out to the F.O.B for the big attack and Manny got Mel to come along to try and get her and Abby to make up? So it was essentially just a fuckup that she happened to be there.
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Mar 8, 2021 15:52
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The writers also pay her small service with some lines about how she wouldn’t just sit back at base and would basically refuse any kind of maternity leave. She’s also treated as one of the better medics, IIRC
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Mar 8, 2021 15:58
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None of those sound like good reasons to put a pregnant woman at risk and sneaking her along just to mend fences with Abby is equally dumb. Like, I do vaguely recall they hand waved it away with a half-explanation about what a badass medic she is but that still struck me as piss poor reasoning for being cool with having a pregnant woman along with them in a warzone. It's a minor complaint though, didn't ruin anything for me.
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Mar 8, 2021 16:31
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In a game full of stubborn people doing stupid things it didn’t even register to me lmao but you’re totally right!
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Mar 8, 2021 16:38
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Mel going out (among many many other things) raises questions about leadership structure in the WLF. Like, Manny can just ask a medic to tag along and it's totally cool? It seems like the only person who can even give orders is Isaac and everyone else is just left to their own devices.
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Mar 8, 2021 16:40
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The WLF is bad, yes.
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Mar 8, 2021 16:41
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Bust Rodd posted:Shammy, it kind of seems like all your interpretations of Ellie are couched in this sense that the game is lying to you or otherwise showing you something that you find to be inauthentic, despite the game not ever employing “unreliable narration” or other tropes that would support the idea that the game is showing us and telling us things that we should doubt. There’s a difference between having a different interpretation of events and looking at the objective events of the game and just going “nah”, so I’m just curious why you seem convinced that the game is showing/telling you something different than what is happening. It's not unreliable narration, I think it's likely that her revenge arc is over, but that doesn't change what she did and what the balance of her life has become. She regularly lied about her pursuit of revenge to those she loved, she got them killed and she murdered innocent people as well as expanding her repertoire to torture. It's probably true that the game's designers were genuine in creating an end of revenge moment with her fight with Abby, but whatever interpretation there is to be had about her arc closing, what about all that other stuff. Golf clap, you didn't kill Abby, but you know, Mel and Owen are still dead and you ruined your new family and everything else? I can't possibly feel optimistic about a 'not killing machine Ellie' in the world simply because she maybe let go of the death of Joel. That's ultimately my problem- her letting go of Joel is actually very small to me and almost unimportant at this point given everything that's happened. It was petty compared to loss of life, the conclusion of the battle in Seattle, the plight of Rattler prisoners and so much more. For what it's worth, I felt a better moment for Ellie's revenge arc to conclude would be as she found Abby on the cross. Aside from the religious metaphors which don't necessarily apply but then again do given religion was a theme in the second game, seeing a completely battered and tortured Abby (the victim of abuse for literal months as the fat Rattler told her), doing her little flashback song and dance, maybe seeing some survivors of the Rattler prison watching from above- she could have carried a scrawnier Abby/her memories of Joel to the boat and seeing them float off into the sea. Better because it seemed like she still needed more blood to 'grow' with the knife battle. If the fight were planned and necessary from the beginning, I don't think it's unfair to suggest though that Abby was uniquely designed to serve as the catalyst for Ellie's 'end of revenge' revelation as the mirror of her resilience. Abby was in peak physical condition because that was the only way a person could survive the Rattlers abuse and be strong enough to provide a final fight for Ellie to actually have her moment. Ellie can't be given too much credit for having a flashback and randomly deciding enough was enough, especially after you slashed the gently caress out of Abby and nearly drown her. Shammypants fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 17:14
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Abby and co are shown to be at the top of the group just under Isaac despite being fairly new themselves, and it’s shown early that there’s a lot of new people Abby and Manny don’t recognize.
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Mar 8, 2021 17:20
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Shammypants posted:It's not unreliable narration, I think it's likely that her revenge arc is over, but that doesn't change what she did and what the balance of her life has become. She regularly lied about her pursuit of revenge to those she loved, she got them killed and she murdered innocent people as well as expanding her repertoire to torture. It's probably true that the game's designers were genuine in creating an end of revenge moment with her fight with Abby, but whatever interpretation there is to be had about her arc closing, what about all that other stuff. Golf clap, you didn't kill Abby, but you know, Mel and Owen are still dead and you ruined your new family and everything else? I can't possibly feel optimistic about a 'not killing machine Ellie' in the world simply because she maybe let go of the death of Joel. That's ultimately my problem- her letting go of Joel is actually very small to me and almost unimportant at this point given everything that's happened. It was petty compared to loss of life, the conclusion of the battle in Seattle, the plight of Rattler prisoners and so much more. lol what "innocent people" are you talking about? Mel and Owen aren't innocent (they opened the game by hunting down a torturing a man who had nothing to do with them). none of the main characters was (kind of a main theme of the whole game). Owen got shot because he charged a person with a gun who wasn't even interested in killing him. I don't honestly even remember what lies you're talking about. she was very open about the fact that she wanted to hunt down Abby all the way up to the point that Mel and Owen got shot, at which point she decided "no, it's not worth it" and was ready to leave Seattle for Dina's sake, but Abby came in and destroyed that plan. later at the farm, she 100% did not want to leave but wasn't coping with her PTSD from Joel and had no other way to deal with it. that's not lying--she tried to let it go. you don't trek hundreds of miles the opposite direction from someone if you aren't genuinely trying. e: this is probably coming off as more aggressive than I meant, but I honestly don't see how if you say you can't square what Ellie's done with a redemptive arc that you can then give one to Abby, who has done everything that Ellie has done on a much larger scale but makes the decision to spare two lives (which Ellie also does, but later) morallyobjected fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 17:32
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Willatron posted:None of those sound like good reasons to put a pregnant woman at risk and sneaking her along just to mend fences with Abby is equally dumb. Like, I do vaguely recall they hand waved it away with a half-explanation about what a badass medic she is but that still struck me as piss poor reasoning for being cool with having a pregnant woman along with them in a warzone. It's a minor complaint though, didn't ruin anything for me. Well they got ambushed on the way to another base, so I don't think the plan was to have Mel in a firefight in the first place. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1OESz4zpLs&t=43693s
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Mar 8, 2021 18:40
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RareAcumen posted:Well they got ambushed on the way to another base, so I don't think the plan was to have Mel in a firefight in the first place. Right but wasn't that other base the F.O.B where they were prepping the assault on the Scars? Why was everybody just cool with, again verge of extinction scenario here, a pregnant woman heading off from the safety of the big gently caress off Stadium Fortress in the first place, but also leaving it for the staging point of a big military assault?
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Mar 8, 2021 18:48
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Shammypants posted:It's not unreliable narration, I think it's likely that her revenge arc is over, but that doesn't change what she did and what the balance of her life has become. She regularly lied about her pursuit of revenge to those she loved, she got them killed and she murdered innocent people as well as expanding her repertoire to torture. It's probably true that the game's designers were genuine in creating an end of revenge moment with her fight with Abby, but whatever interpretation there is to be had about her arc closing, what about all that other stuff. Golf clap, you didn't kill Abby, but you know, Mel and Owen are still dead and you ruined your new family and everything else? I can't possibly feel optimistic about a 'not killing machine Ellie' in the world simply because she maybe let go of the death of Joel. That's ultimately my problem- her letting go of Joel is actually very small to me and almost unimportant at this point given everything that's happened. It was petty compared to loss of life, the conclusion of the battle in Seattle, the plight of Rattler prisoners and so much more. I do completely see where you’re heads at. Speaking personally, for me the part you’re neglecting here that really elevates the entire thing is that Ellie, Angel of Death, has her ultimate rock bottom moment just moments before her salvation. She puts her knife to Lev’s throat, an innocent boy, no older than Ellie was when Joel first met her. That, to me, is the completion of the cycle of revenge, and also the greater completion of this really large self-destructive narrative. Ellie is having a crisis in which Joel’s death has to mean something! The same way her death was supposed to have meant something, the way Joel robbed her of her death getting to mean something. And in this endless search to find meaning in one man’s death and one woman’s failure to die, she becomes like a new mutation of the Cordyceps plague herself, just this ambient cloud of death and decay that destroys anything it comes in contact with. This is the same girl whose mutation would have saved the world. I think I see where our interpretations of her feelings pivot but I appreciate your ability to isolate what gave you pause or that you didn’t vibe with.
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Mar 8, 2021 18:57
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Willatron posted:Right but wasn't that other base the F.O.B where they were prepping the assault on the Scars? Why was everybody just cool with, again verge of extinction scenario here, a pregnant woman heading off from the safety of the big gently caress off Stadium Fortress in the first place, but also leaving it for the staging point of a big military assault? Because they're insane fascists. Alhazred fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 19:30
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Bust Rodd posted:I do completely see where you’re heads at. Speaking personally, for me the part you’re neglecting here that really elevates the entire thing is that Ellie, Angel of Death, has her ultimate rock bottom moment just moments before her salvation. She puts her knife to Lev’s throat, an innocent boy, no older than Ellie was when Joel first met her. That, to me, is the completion of the cycle of revenge, and also the greater completion of this really large self-destructive narrative. "It can't be for nothing"
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Mar 8, 2021 19:53
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Alhazred posted:Because they're insane fascists. Which isn't a very satisfactory explanation, because it basically relies on "Because they are bad guys!" which is the exact sort of convention this game sets out to set itself apart from. Even insane fascists aren't known for willingly putting very pregnant women in combat situations. Hell, the Nazis were practically already defeated and badly desperate before they resorted to putting Hitler Youth members on the Berlin defensive lines, which did not seem to be the case for the WLF in their well defended, heavily populated Stadium Fortress. People do some monstrous stuff in the name of survival, but putting a woman weeks away from giving birth in a combat squad goes against even that logic.
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Mar 8, 2021 19:59
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Willatron posted:
Mel being in a combat squad isn't even on the top ten list of the monstrous things the wolves did though.
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Mar 8, 2021 21:07
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Alhazred posted:Mel being in a combat squad isn't even on the top ten list of the monstrous things the wolves did though. Which still relies on "These are bad guys who do bad things to their enemies, so risking the life of a soon-to-be-newborn in the post apocalypse when humans are dying out makes total sense too". I'll grudgingly accept that explanation, but it's still an unsatisfactory one in a game that focuses so heavily on the motivations and moral justifications of it's characters. Being ruthless survival fascists doesn't really help make it less questionable, in fact being ruthless survival fascists it's surprising Mel is even allowed to leave or walk around the stadium as she pleases under the circumstances, you'd think they'd treat pregnant women like a valuable resource or something. Like I said, minor point of contention I had with the game specifically because it contrasts pretty heavily with most of the writing which does address those kinds of questions. Willatron fucked around with this message at 21:46 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 21:43
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Do we know how long ago the Wolves killed the Seraphite leader and ruined that treaty?
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Mar 8, 2021 22:13
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The game veers dangerously into "everyone is bad if you really think about it, so something good happening to someone is exponentially more good than normal, even if people get hurt" territory.
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Mar 8, 2021 22:24
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bobjr posted:Do we know how long ago the Wolves killed the Seraphite leader and ruined that treaty? I think the treaty came after. or at least the most recent treaty. the Seraphite leader died I think about 10 years ago iirc. I honestly couldn't tell you why I think that though. it just seems like she's been dead for a while. morallyobjected fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Mar 8, 2021 |
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Mar 8, 2021 22:30
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I got the impression the most recent treaty had fallen apart within the past year or two. The way Mel, Manny, and Abby refer to it sounded like the Salt Lake crew was around before it’d even been brokered, and we know they’d only been there for four years.
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Mar 8, 2021 23:17
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Pook Good Mook posted:Ya I don't think "subtle" is a word anyone would use to describe the story, characters, or motivations in this game. Most of the legit criticisms of the game were how heavy-handed the themes were. Perspective is a big one. There's a thematic reason for Ellie collecting superhero cards, it shows that she divides the world into discreet categories of 'heros' and 'villains', but from the perspective of a wounded and impressionable child. If a person is neutral it is explicitly stated beforehand in the text of her fantasy, and this fantasy is wrapped up in unexamined emotions, compulsions, and guilt. Abby (probably the more pragmatic of the two) collecting coins also leaves room for some interpretation of people being on this side or that, though the coin is both an acknowledgement of a dead social order and in this case a connection to a past that the Fireflies can't let go of, not to mention a coin in general – if flipped – is supposedly a neutral arbiter, immune to accusations of cruelty or bias, a machine of fate. Ellie's justification for killing is that it fits her personally reinforced narrative of right vs wrong. Abby's justification for killing is that it was ordained by a higher authority and she is just the messenger. They both violate their own personal code, too, they are both fallible.
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Mar 9, 2021 02:50
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i'm going crazy, i'm just posting vids for the same leaks, just give us the drat game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKpfJf1_th0
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Mar 9, 2021 03:01
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The trick to get factions? Bully uckman https://twitter.com/neil_druckmann/status/1369671984838184972?s=21
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Mar 10, 2021 17:25
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Alhazred posted:Mel being in a combat squad isn't even on the top ten list of the monstrous things the wolves did though. She wasn't in the "combat squad" she was going with them to the FOB, which stands for "Forward Operating Base". FOBs function as secure areas closer to front lines where military operations get launched from, they're not like foxholes or (typically) places that are under attack. Since she's a medic and thats important as hell in their world thats all hosed up from constant fighting, it's not too crazy they'd let a pregnant lady be a medic in a place that's considered secure. Tumble fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Mar 10, 2021 |
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Mar 10, 2021 18:48
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Mel isn't just a medic, she's as close to a trained surgeon the WLF have. Mel is complex because in a lot of ways, she's very cowardly and manipulative, but also has a braver side. Like that bit when she figures out Abby isn't going to just shoot Joel, but torture him, but she doesn't have the nerve to actually object. Ashly Burch did a great job. There's a new interview where Neil Druckmann said one of the early ideas was to have Abby stab Joel in the back and leave him wheelchair bound, which would have been a very different story, and radically altered the Ellie/Joel dynamic in the story. Apparently the golf club came from when Druckmann was once accidentally hit in the head with one. I'm annoyed it got spoiled before release (I dodged most spoilers, but not that one), because its an effective scene, very, very shocking and grim.
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Mar 10, 2021 19:09
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I basically didn’t go online between the leaks coming out and beating the game. The only fake spoiler I saw was that Joel and Ellie die, but I knew in my heart always that Joel would die and it was always a question of when and not if
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Mar 10, 2021 19:13
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Tumble posted:She wasn't in the "combat squad" she was going with them to the FOB, which stands for "Forward Operating Base". FOBs function as secure areas closer to front lines where military operations get launched from, they're not like foxholes or (typically) places that are under attack. Since she's a medic and thats important as hell in their world thats all hosed up from constant fighting, it's not too crazy they'd let a pregnant lady be a medic in a place that's considered secure. Zane fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Mar 10, 2021 |
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Mar 10, 2021 19:17
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OldMemes posted:Mel isn't just a medic, she's as close to a trained surgeon the WLF have. Mel is complex because in a lot of ways, she's very cowardly and manipulative, but also has a braver side. Like that bit when she figures out Abby isn't going to just shoot Joel, but torture him, but she doesn't have the nerve to actually object. Ashly Burch did a great job. Yea they did a wonderful job giving the characters life, they show a remarkable level of depth which is what makes talking and debating the plots and meanings of them and the game overall so enjoyable. Also, Mel was trained, at least partially, by Abbies dad which gives us another small bit of information into the kind of person he was; it's easy to gather that he was a very warm and loving person. And that's another thing that makes Abbies obsession with revenge so tragic - it's easy to see him begging his daughter not to let her anger be what drives her, that he understands why Joel would save Ellie and stuff like that. The same goes for Joel - you can picture him begging Ellie to stay on the farm with Dina, or even not to leave Jackson to begin with.
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Mar 10, 2021 20:13
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Bust Rodd posted:I basically didn’t go online between the leaks coming out and beating the game. Yeah Joel dying was inevitable to me, so if someone had told me ahead of time he died I wouldn't have bat an eye. However it's the way he dies and how early in the game it happens that's the real shock. I'm glad I didn't get the specifics spoiled for me because it was a genuine shock that he died like an hour into the game
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Mar 10, 2021 21:12
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Happy Noodle Boy posted:The trick to get factions? Bully uckman 
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Mar 11, 2021 02:47
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yeah, I thought Joel would die the way I assume a lot of people mad about his death thought he would die - guns blazing to save Ellie at the end of the game. Really glad ND went a different route.
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Mar 11, 2021 05:16
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Shammypants posted:On returning to Dina's farm, Abby doesn't even seem sad that she was predictably dumped. She isn't particularly saddened by her new inability to play the guitar well and she just leaves everything behind on her way out. I couldn't help but feel like she could still be convinced to go back after Abby by Tommy, after leaving the farm, because why not! It's a 50/50 for me that she continues to do wrong in the world or she goes back to the settlement and tries to do some good in the world and not hurt others who care about her (but only because these kinds of games like redemption, rather than what I saw giving me any hope that she will change). That's all because Ellie is suffering from profound mental trauma. I lived with someone for several years that had with PTSD from several deployments all of Ellie's behavior is really on point. That's what happens in some cases, disassociation an an inability to connect or process. It took my friend years to start to meaningfully recover when among friends in a safe environment.
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Mar 11, 2021 08:19
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Woke up this morning and thought about 2v2s, wolves vs whistlers, and how loving awesome it’s gonna be before they announce Factions is a live-GAAS with Wandavision Tie-In skins
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Mar 11, 2021 12:36
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All those leaks saying Peter Griffin will be playable in Fortnite were half right. They just got the wrong battle Royale game.
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Mar 11, 2021 12:45
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Cant wait to pay $60 for a full factions II but then also buy the $15 Ellie Season Pass so I can unlock a few alternate tattoos and Joel’s Iconic Flannel
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Mar 11, 2021 15:39
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