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Game made me feel sad. Outline and thoughts: - Joel finally confesses to Ellie about the true circumstances surrounding the last game. She completely rejects him as a result. - The night before the game starts, she resolves to forgive Joel for what he did and try to move past it. - Joel is brutally killed by Abby. Ellie loses her surrogate father and is denied her opportunity to forgive him. - Ellie sets out for revenge (ostensibly to avenge her surrogate father, but also - as we later learn - due to the stolen chance for forgiveness) - On her journey, Ellie learns the reason for why Abby killed Joel and that it's the same reason she fell out with him. - Ellie brutally kills Nora (and is obviously shaken by what she has been driven to, but I also like the take that her behaviour afterward is also informed by learning the reason they wanted Joel dead and how it relates to her own falling out with Joel). - Ellie kills Owen and Mel (who she later discovers is pregnant, to her horror). - Ellie agrees to return to Jackson for Dina's sake, but is tracked down and beaten by Abby before they can leave. Jesse dies, Tommy is crippled. - Ellie returns to live a life with Dina, but suffers PTSD. - Tommy, now broken, bullies Ellie into setting off for revenge again. - Ellie finds Abby, utterly broken and her trauma causes her to still seek vengeance. - As she is drowning Abby, she remembers the night before the game starts, where she had resolved to forgive Joel. She stops and lets her go [thoughts on this below]. - She returns to the empty farmhouse (she's lost a connection to the people left in her life) and tries to play the gee-tar with two missing fingers (she's lost a connection to Joel). This is part of the cost of her quest for vengeance, alongside the trauma and pile of corpses. Now, the reason I think she stops drowning Abby is because she realises how big a part that stolen chance for forgiveness is playing into her quest. Killing Abby can't help with that (especially now with everything she knows about Abby's motivation). If she kills Abby, it's maybe a tacit agreement that Joel didn't do anything wrong* (or minimises it, I dunno) when she herself had rejected him for the very same reason. Killing Abby would cause friction with her need to forgive him. I don't think it's even remotely about forgiving Abby or accepting her actions like I've seen some people say (not here, this isn't a callout). I also think it has nothing to do with the many, many people Ellie has killed along the way. I don't think it's a situation where ludonarrative dissonance comes into it, because I don't think the decision to spare Abby is for anyone's sake but Ellie's. It's not so much Ellie's virtuous rejection of the cycle of revenge (which would be dampened by the pile of dead bodies in her wake, only to stop at her ultimate target). It's her realising that the cycle won't help her get what she needs/wants. The pacing, as discussed was pretty poo poo. The first climax in the outline above has the legs cut out from it in order to stop and flesh out Abby with a largely unrelated story. If the aim was to build some sympathy and understanding of Abby as a character, that's fine, but I think the overall narrative suffered due to the way it was executed. *I actually don't think he did, TBH. But the characters don't gotta share my views. I also don't think crushing a loved one's skull with a golf club is something I could let go, even if I was on the same ideological side as them and killing them would cause me some cognitive dissonance, but - and this is important - Ellie isn't me. Phrakusca fucked around with this message at 15:17 on Jun 27, 2020 |
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Jun 27, 2020 13:27
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He cut in line for his burrito
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Jun 29, 2020 11:08
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Necrothatcher posted:Maybe given the rise of fandom and online communities people genuinely do feel that the fans own the characters as much as their creators/IP holders. I think it's just a very human response. Even many people in this thread (some more tongue-in-cheek than others) seem to treat it as "Team Abby" versus "Team Ellie" (or the reponse to calling out Owen being to call out Joel above). As though you must pick a side and make concessions to excuse questionable behaviour of your "chosen" character/side. I'm not above this, I got pulled into this kind of thinking during the game, especially when you're thrust into Abby's shoes. EDIT: Also, for example, you can prefer one character over the other without it being an endorsement of their actions. You can prefer Ellie as a character (for any reason, really), while still believing Abby is the more moral/justified of the two. Just like the villain of a peice of fiction can be your favourite character. Phrakusca fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Jun 29, 2020 |
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Jun 29, 2020 11:38
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I think the valid criticism is more of a meta-commentary on the representation of trans characters in media and the focus of conflict almost always revolving around their "trans-ness", rather than it being just another aspect of their character. I think those complaining are just fed up with this trend, as they wish to be seen as more than just their struggle. Getting into the minutiae of how the bad guys actually treat the character seems off, though. I wouldn't consider a villainous racist character calling a black person the n-word a reason to complain in and of itself. Although, I could see the meta decision (by writers/directors) to include it in a story to be in bad taste if the real-world struggles of their affected group were at the forefront of current social discussions (which is arguably the case for trans people), as it could be interpreted as exploitative.
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Jun 29, 2020 19:36
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veni veni veni posted:I also think there is an expectation from a lot of gamers that they should have some say in the matter in the what their avatar does. After all, they are controlling the moment to moment action, so why don't they get to do what they want in the big decisions? But that has never been what TLOU is about. There are a million games that will let you do that. Some of them are more memorable for it, but 99% will exit your brain the moment after you finish. Yea, I think the interactive element is what tips it. It won't be this way for everyone, but I think a lot of people will instinctively play a character as "I", even in a tightly controlled narrative. I definitely do it and once I realise it's not appropriate, it takes effort to pull myself back. I'm glad I did it for this game. I keep thinking back to Jamie Lannister in GoT and how I absolutely hated the prick at first, but towards the end he was one of my favourite characters (which was never an endorsement of his prior motives/actions, but definitely added some conflict and texture to my enjoyment of his character). I think that would have been much different if his story was presented via gameplay (where "I" was Jamie and also other major GoT characters). I didn't get too invested in discussions surrounding GoT, but I don't recall such a visceral reaction to his "redemption" or the efforts to build audience empathy for him and I think that lack of interactivity - and so exclusively viewing him as his own person - may play a part. In TLOU2, when I initially switched to Abby and I realised I'd be controlling her for a good chunk of time, I reeled hard (thinking: boo! she's my - rather than Ellie's - nemesis!). Fast-forward a few hours and I was largely on-board (no doubt due to having that same interactive process happen with her character now). In pulling myself back from that, I was able to experience that same sense of conflict and texture I had for Jamie Lannister for both Ellie and Abby. The game tries to force you to pull back from that, by virtue of the two playable characters coming into direct conflict at the theatre and beach. I think if the story/gameplay fails to cause that perspective shift (perhaps one side of the story doesn't resonate to the player and they remain - to some degree - thinking of Abby or Ellie as "I"), I can see how some players might bounce hard off that. In my case, I still wasn't quite there during the theatre fight; I really didn't want to wail on Ellie (who was still "my" character) or hurt Dina (who was still "my" character's love interest). It almost made me reject the game out of hand. It wasn't until reflecting back on it during the farm sequence that I was able to think "yea, this isn't 'my' story, lol. It's Abby, not 'me' who was hurting Ellie/Dina" and appreciate it as part of the broader narrative. stev posted:There should've been more horse. Genuinely a little upset that Shimmer wasn't mourned. Phrakusca fucked around with this message at 09:36 on Jun 30, 2020 |
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Jun 30, 2020 09:31
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BOAT SHOWBOAT posted:If you're where I think you are Santa Barbara you probably have about an hour and no more than 2 hours left but if you gotta sleep you gotta sleep. I really like this take. I'm going to steal it and present it as my own when my casual friends finish the game in a couple weeks.
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Jun 30, 2020 09:39
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Mulva posted:Hilariously between the time you started writing that and the time you posted I edited in RDR2. Which means of the 3 games I called out for actual story? You said maybe 2 of them were better. And there are no apples and oranges to "What video game has inspired this level of discussion about the story?". That's a pretty loving stark question, it gets a stark answer. I'm pretty sure more has been written about Planescape: Torment than vast swaths of real world religions. The others were visual presentation, which isn't entirely story. It's part of how the story is conveyed to you. And there are games that go for an entirely different, non-realistic aesthetic and kill it. Wind Waker HD will continue to hold up for all time because of that, whereas eventually direction will be the only thing that sets photorealistic games apart. TLoU1 was roughly equal to this game for it's level of sophistication when it came out, and you don't see people blowing it today. I dunno, this kinda just seems like taking someone's burger off them and pulling it apart to point out that you've seen better bread and better lettuce and better meat and better sauce. Like, yea...ok? I think a lot of us have had better bread, lettuce, meat and sauce, but this burg still tastes good. Maybe some of us had a craving for this kind of burger and declared it amazing after taking a few bites. Why begrudge them that and barge in to declare fine dining the superior way to eat? Why not just tell us what you did or didn't like about the burger?
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Jun 30, 2020 11:51
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Mulva posted:Hi, when someone starts out with "This is one of the best games ever made", the only places you can go are "I agree" or "This is how you are wrong". Hello. Incorrect. You can also go "I disagree" and then expand on that. I mean, you're welcome to try to shine an objective light on this, but I think therein lies the path to folly. Another helpful burger analogy: If someone declares, "this is one of the best burgers ever made", you can't actually get a meaningful discussion with a retort that begins: "this is how you are wrong." Mulva posted:When you say "This is how you are wrong", you aren't attacking their character or summoning the ice float to exile them from the tribe. You are having a discussion. Having discussions is good, sharing opinions is good, and even when people don't agree that doesn't mean there is a problem. This is the entire basis of critical examination of media. Challenging statements isn't an attack, it's a way of seeing if something stands up to probing. For instance I said that a certain gameplay and story moment wasn't unique, and the very first person to come back on that is rocking a game tag of a game that did the exact same thing 3 years ago. Also, to the rest of this: do remember that even this back and forth is part of that discussion and by challenging you I am not inferring any of that stuff about attacks on character from what you have said. Phrakusca fucked around with this message at 12:46 on Jun 30, 2020 |
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Jun 30, 2020 12:40
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Mulva posted:Oh, so it's a tone argument? Because you described the exact same process in slightly different words. No, it's a difference between objective declarative statements and subjectivity. To expand, I think it's a problem with much criticism (across many areas, entertainment or otherwise). Am I "wrong" for thinking the Fly is the greatest movie ever made?* Am I "wrong" for thinking sushi is the greatest food in the world? Am I "wrong" if I don't enjoy a movie ranked among the greatest ever? I'd argue that it's not actually possible to be wrong about these things. There's a difference between declaratively stating that I am wrong for considering the Fly the greatest movie and outlining it's strengths and weaknesses in order to demonstrate why you might disagree. It's not about phrasing it politely or in the correct tone. *Certainly, it is well regarded, but it'll never top the list. I, however, am declaring it the very very best. Mulva posted:I mean maybe you can't. Sassy. Well, you could try to strain a discussion out of it, but you'd quickly find that you enter the realm of your own personal preferences (or that of your opponents) and so would be sucked into the realm of "I disagree". It sounds like you're conflating opinion and truth, especially given the reference to "tone" above. Saying someone is wrong versus offering your opinion on a disagreement aren't the impolite and polite way of saying the same thing. Edit: another analogy (sorry, I love 'em): I have a friend who is my favourite person in the world. He is not the best-looking, smartest, most successful, kindest person that exists, but I can't be "wrong" for thinking he's the best and putting him above all others. Phrakusca fucked around with this message at 13:37 on Jun 30, 2020 |
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Jun 30, 2020 13:31
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Mulva posted:.....yes that's how opinions work, it's your viewpoint. You can only lie about having an opinion, you can't actually be wrong about having an opinion. It's how you view things. Someone can't really say "No, you actually don't view things that way.". Ah, in that case I misunderstood you. My issue wasn't your tone, I sincerely thought you to be arguing to some objectivity to it. Mea culpa. Edit: made less defensive
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Jun 30, 2020 14:07
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Necrothatcher posted:I wrote up some longer-form thoughts if anyone's interested: https://pixelhunted.wordpress.com/2020/06/30/the-last-of-us-part-ii-ps4-2020/ I like it. Kudos. The point about the aim of the narrative (where you include Druckmann's quote) is interesting. As I've said, when I switched to Abby, I had a negative reaction; I was now playing someone I didn't like and wasn't invested in. It felt as though the wind had been taken out of the narrative's sails. However, by the end of the story that had completely changed and I was invested in her character, her story and her relation to the main plot (as more than just a target). Perhaps that could have been achieved without that sense of whiplash, but maybe my experience benefitted overall from that whiplash by creating a distinct contrast with how I felt towards a character at their introduction (as a fully playable character) and how I felt towards them at the conclusion of the story. This also ended up affecting how I veiwed Ellie and Tommy. Overall, I'm thinking it did benefit my experience and I can appreciate the decision to make a player uncomfortable in order to elicit specific emotions. It's been done before, but it's good stuff when it works. Especially now on a second playthrough where I find myself not dreading Abby's portion of the game (which was one of the first things running through my head when it happened unspoiled; "oh god, I'll have to do this character switch again if I replay") Phrakusca fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jun 30, 2020 |
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Jun 30, 2020 16:51
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Here's another critical take from a channel I'm subbed to: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6iaARLOaiM Makes some interesting points IMO about how the broader themes of the game are sidelined in favour of more rigourous character examinations. He also pretty much exactly encapsulates my thought process when he discusses the switch to Abby, but because he's focussed on theme (which isn't a bad thing), it ends up becomming a slog for him, since her portion vastly exceeds the time it takes to apply a thematic read. And I can see more and more how this could "miss" for someone if they're able to (or more inclined) to view the narrative as a whole, rather than get sucked into the "role" of a character.
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Jul 1, 2020 08:25
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nickmeister posted:WLF being so dysfunctional was a bit strange to me, since the "most of us don't know it, but we're cannibals" settlement was a real town with people and kids and poo poo. I liked how the creepy, crazy guy you kill as Ellie in that restaurant is just someone else's Joel. Not a "bad" guy, just not on your side. The WLF are easier to hate because of how foolishly aggressive they are, to the detriment of their basic lifestyle. Erm.. the paedophilic cannibal would be a bad guy if he was on my side too...
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Jul 2, 2020 15:52
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Lmao 
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Jul 4, 2020 07:54
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I think it must just be extreme emotional immaturity because I'm betting if a gimmick of Cersei's character was that she kills you if you don't immediately pay her a tribute, I doubt these people would be lining up to hand over their wallets and purses to Lena Headey. It seems more that they were made to feel a negative emotion and are lashing out at the perceieved source, however little sense it makes. It reminds me of how I can calm down toddlers who have bumped into furniture by "smacking" the table/chair/whatever and telling it off.
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Jul 4, 2020 12:41
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bowmore posted:After beating it and reflecting i've gone from That was good not great to actually this was a bad game story wise. Lol kinda similar. After beating TLOU1, my love for it was immediate and the reflection afterwards (including listening to the opinions of others) only reinforced that. With this one I definitely enjoyed playing it overall, but the more I think and reflect on the story and the choices made on how to tell it, the more I feel soured on it. What's made it difficult for me to assess was that - from what I can tell - many of the conflicting feelings it caused were intentional. However, I'm starting to think that maybe it just wasn't to my taste, despite appreciating what it was going for. Kinda like the intentional bitterness of some food/drink.
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Jul 7, 2020 09:30
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