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Khanstant posted:I hope I misread something but Culver's childish attitudes about joking SC do make since if she's a teen, but in that case idk if this 150 year old dude should be messing around with her and in any case it's all premarital so I think these folks may be sinners. Ulver's 22, she's been in university for the last five years or so.
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Dec 30, 2024 18:27
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| # ? Dec 6, 2025 22:21 |
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Ulver Seich is what today we would call an influencer (in a book written in 1996, so the character traits are a little speculative but I find them spot-on). She wants to join SC for the same reason that Kylie Jenner might want to join the CIA or MI-6: for clout. This is the same reason she'd be unlikely to be accepted or a good fit.
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Dec 30, 2024 20:10
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Yeah it's pretty funny watching her reaction to this endeavor. She wants special contact, not to join Special Circumstances.
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Dec 30, 2024 20:17
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She's also the closest thing the Culture has to a Nepo Baby
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Dec 30, 2024 20:21
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Khanstant posted:it's all premarital so I think these folks may be sinners It is crazy that in a series about fully automated gay space anarcho-communism a lot of the plots have to do with souls and the literal afterlife.
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Dec 30, 2024 20:53
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Springfield Fatts posted:It is crazy that in a series about fully automated gay space anarcho-communism a lot of the plots have to do with souls and the literal afterlife. tbf Bank's position is "we would make heaven and hell if we had the power to do so, and both aren't great options"
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Dec 30, 2024 21:10
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I'm inclined to think of subliming as a non existence trick.
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Dec 30, 2024 22:10
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drat. I wasnt expecting loner dude on the airship depot to get wasted like that. gently caress the Affront.
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Dec 31, 2024 03:13
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I'm sure it'll wash out. What goes around, comes around, after all.
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Dec 31, 2024 04:40
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Excession is just inconsistent with Bank's conceit that societies reach perfect science, get bored because there's nothing left important worth knowing, then transcend reality to the next step. Bank's answer is 'the sublimed aren't interested in the Excession, shut up and stop thinking about it' and that's fine.
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Dec 31, 2024 10:00
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Alchenar posted:Bank's answer is 'the sublimed aren't interested in the Excession, shut up and stop thinking about it' and that's fine. For all we know the Sublimed were very interested in it and they just didn't have a way of perceiving it.
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Dec 31, 2024 10:24
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Why would the Sublimed be all that interested in the Excession? it's an artifact or member of the Sublimed, or at least from higher dimensional beings. It'd be like us watching people absolutely lose their poo poo over someone posting in this thread
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Dec 31, 2024 11:49
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Why would the Sublimed be all that interested in the Excession? it's an artifact or member of the Sublimed, or at least from higher dimensional beings. It'd be like us watching people absolutely lose their poo poo over someone posting in this thread The implication I always got was that it was an alternative path of development to subliming, a different direction that very few cultures went in because subliming was easier.
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Dec 31, 2024 12:25
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Gravitas Shortfall posted:Why would the Sublimed be all that interested in the Excession? it's an artifact or member of the Sublimed, or at least from higher dimensional beings. It'd be like us watching people absolutely lose their poo poo over someone posting in this thread It's not though, it's an agent of beings have worked out how to transit between universes, Banks's setting being that every universe is nestled 'between' an older and younger universe with an apparently impermeable barrier between them. The implication is that these beings have working out how to escape heat death by just moving home. The reason Banks doesn't want to involve the sublimed in this story is because this being possible is a tension with the other element of this setting being that it's implicitly impossible so every society opts to sublime as the obvious next step instead.
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Dec 31, 2024 12:27
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Alchenar posted:It's not though, it's an agent of beings have worked out how to transit between universes, Banks's setting being that every universe is nestled 'between' an older and younger universe with an apparently impermeable barrier between them. The implication is that these beings have working out how to escape heat death by just moving home. The reason Banks doesn't want to involve the sublimed in this story is because this being possible is a tension with the other element of this setting being that it's implicitly impossible so every society opts to sublime as the obvious next step instead. I'm not sure either of our readings is backed up by text tbh, - we don't know the Sublimed relationship to higher/lower universes, or whether or not they can traverse the gridfire barriers that separate them. There's nothing in-text AFAIK that contradicts the idea that the Excession is a Sublimed artefact, their living bridge and gateway, but there's nothing that confirms it either. The Excession's own words in the epilogue are vague references to higher-dimensional things that remain unknowable, so they're not much help there. If there is an entirely separate group of universe-traversing civilisations out there, Banks never returns to the idea, and in later books seems more concerned with the Sublime. Obviously I prefer the link-to-the-Sublimed explanation, but that's because it's narratively neater, ties into existing setting elements, and sidesteps the tension you bring up. Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 13:02 on Dec 31, 2024 |
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Dec 31, 2024 13:00
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The epilogue confirms that the Excession didn't know much about the local Involved civilisations until it physically manifested in our universe, and it reported back on their nature to its superiors, which would imply it's not an artefact of this universe's sublime, which know it all. I feel that Banks definitely intended us to believe it had nothing to do with the Sublime, with the way Serious Callers Only seems to take it as given that they weren't its originators in the ending wrapup when it's musing on their indifference.
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Dec 31, 2024 13:14
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MikeJF posted:The epilogue confirms that the Excession didn't know much about the local Involved civilisations until it physically manifested in our universe, and it reported back on their nature to its superiors, which would imply it's not an artefact of this universe's sublime, which know it all. From actions in the books, it seems like they can affect a form of omniscience, but it is active rather than passive, in that a Sublimed entity chooses to turn their attention to the Real, rather than passively knowing everything. Also a civilisation undergoes a profound transformation after only a short time within the sublime, not to mention the countless forgotten species that sublimed in the far galactic past that would have no real reason to check on what the boring 4D world gets up to. In fact, interaction with non-sublimed reality seems to be an outlier rather than a common occurrence, at best links maintained by extremely long lived artefacts or organisms (Bulbititans, maybe the various Aeranothaurs). So I don't think it would be too out of the question for excession-aligned groups not to know anything about the local involved until told. I guess it's a moot point anyway. In a way your explanation is more interesting because it adds more mystery to the universe. Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Dec 31, 2024 |
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Dec 31, 2024 14:57
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So I’ve haven’t read most of this thread for fear of spoilers, but a few years ago I read Consider Pheblas, and thought it had some interesting parts but overall it didn’t work for me. I knew that was pretty much the consensus view of the book, and the series got better from that point on, but somehow, at the time, I couldn’t motivate myself to continue. Well, a couple of weeks back, I finally picked up The Player of Games, and I had a great time with it. It’s a very clever and enjoyable sci-fi adventure, and I haven’t been so absorbed into a new book for quite a while. It reminded me of the pleasure of good stories, and got me out of a protracted reading slump, and I was really excited to continue the series. So I moved eagerly on to Use of Weapons, which I’ve just finished, and, uhhh… that was a real slog. I’m back to the Consider Pheblas mode of struggling to connect to the book, or to understand what reaction Banks was trying to create in the reader, or what exactly about the story or the way it’s told is supposed to be, like, interesting. The interlocking/non-linear structure is a big problem. I’d be up for reading a version of this novel that was rewritten from the ground-up to work in chronological order. It would’ve forced Banks to cut the fat and make each chapter actually work on its own terms. As it is, it’s so bitty and broken up. The present-day stuff is mostly a drag, and weirdly weighted towards the less important parts of the story. We spend so much time on setting up the extraction of Beychae and following their escape, and then it barely seems to matter and Beychae just disappears from the book. Then Zakalwe is parachuted into the Hegemonarchy society, spends about five pages there, and that stuff becomes the big emotional climax of the book, when the Culture hangs them out to dry. It seems like he should have spent most of the book with the Hegemonarchy if Banks wanted that to land. Befor that, there’s nothing much else to sustain the narrative except the steadily diminishing desire to slog through the flashbacks and get the details of Zakalwe’s Big Tragic Deal. But honestly, I’d lost interest in his extremely thinly-sketched family drama and kind of silly phobia of chairs, so the eventual limp reveals were too little, too late. And then - and then! - there’s the extraordinarily dumbass final twist, which doesn’t seem to serve any purpose except misleading the reader for the sake of misleading them. Like, why not simply be upfront about the character and their motivations? Then you can explore them throughout the book and you’ve have a proper character study, grappling with weighty themes in a sci-fi setting. What’s gained from rendering it in this rear end-backwards, self-defeating way? So overall, a pretty frustrating experience. Oh, and also, on a technical level, the book was a step-down from TPoG. Lots of clunky dialogue and leaden descriptive writing. On the bright side, I do really like the basic idea of the high-minded Culture dropping an operative into societies to nudge them gently in the “correct” direction, and also the idea of the operative going rogue and using more direct methods to dispose of nasty rulers. However, I’m feeling much less enthused about my journey through the Culture novels now. As far as I can tell, Culture fans generally like Use of Weapons, and it isn't seen as a misfire. If that’s the case, do you think I should stick with the series, or am I maybe not the right audience?
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Dec 31, 2024 16:44
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Alchenar posted:They don't really regret the Iridan war, there's just consequences to it. The main policy change the Culture makes is to generate an absolutely enormous reserve war fleet so they're never again put in a position where an Imperialist involved race thinks they're a soft target. Soft target? The Culture started the war.
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Dec 31, 2024 16:45
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Lobster Henry posted:However, I’m feeling much less enthused about my journey through the Culture novels now. As far as I can tell, Culture fans generally like Use of Weapons, and it isn't seen as a misfire. If that’s the case, do you think I should stick with the series, or am I maybe not the right audience? Try Look To Windward. I think you'll enjoy it a lot more than UoW, and if you don't, yeah the series isn't for you. Not sure if you'd like Excession or not, personally if you like LtW I'd say maybe try Matter, Surface Detail, and The Hydrogen Sonata (in that order). You can come back to Excession any time during that run. Also, read Inversions at some point if you decide you do like the series, it's a bit of a shaggy dog story, but it's fun reading between the lines. mossyfisk posted:Soft target? The Culture started the war. The Iridians were a fanatical, expansionist empire engaged in inter-planetary conquest, I really don't think you can pin the war on the Culture. Gravitas Shortfall fucked around with this message at 17:21 on Dec 31, 2024 |
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Dec 31, 2024 17:13
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I know I'm an outlier because I enjoy Pheblas, though the third act in the tunnels does drag. But man that's a wild take on Weapons. To each their own though, the only thing I'd of trimmed were the injury sections of Zakalwe crawling around a caldera or hallucinating on a sea of pain. edit: Yeah, what Gravitas Shortfall said.
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Dec 31, 2024 17:16
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mossyfisk posted:Soft target? The Culture started the war. I can't remember, do they confirm that? The CP appendix is kinda vague. But from the way he describes the setup it sounds to me like the Culture probably parked themselves between the Idiran conquest wave and a 'lesser' civilisation and declared them under their protection and the Idirans went 'okay' and started blasting.
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Dec 31, 2024 17:49
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Consider Phelbas, Appendix 1; Reasons: The Culture posted:Faced with a religiously inspired society determined to extend its influence over every technologically inferior civilisation in its path regardless of either the initial toll of conquest or the subsequent attrition of occupation, Contact could either disengage and admit defeat - so giving the lie not simply to its own reason for existence but to the only justificatory action which allowed the pampered, self-consciously fortunate people of the Culture to enjoy their lives with a clear conscience - or it could fight. So basically yeah, the Culture turned around and went' "loving QUIT it"
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Dec 31, 2024 17:55
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Thank you! My original plan was to stick to publication order, but I think I’ll jump to Look to Windward and see how it goes.
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Dec 31, 2024 18:12
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Love for Use of Weapons is far from universal, in my opinion it's the weakest book in the series. Gravitas Shortfall's suggestions are solid though, Look to Windward, Matter, Surface Detail, and Hydrogen Sonata are much more enjoyable reads without any of the story structure experimentation of UoW.
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Dec 31, 2024 19:28
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I've read all of the Culture books and liked the newer ones a lot more than the older ones, for what it's worth. Matter, Surface Detail and Hydrogen Sonata are a little more straightforward in their storytelling vs Use of Weapons or Consider Pheblas.
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Dec 31, 2024 19:56
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Use of Weapons was my least favourite so far. I really enjoyed Consider Phlebas and Player o Games
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Dec 31, 2024 20:38
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I definitely thought UoW had some good ideas and interesting story but yeah I'd put it in the bottom quartile of the culture novels.
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Dec 31, 2024 21:06
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MikeJF posted:I can't remember, do they confirm that? The CP appendix is kinda vague. But from the way he describes the setup it sounds to me like the Culture probably parked themselves between the Idiran conquest wave and a 'lesser' civilisation and declared them under their protection and the Idirans went 'okay' and started blasting. Yeah the Culture are technically the belligerents but on the basis of inter placing themselves in the path of the Iridan's expansion. Then there's the Homondans who actively support the Iridan against the culture because they're concerned about the Culture. It's never explained why they think the Culture are worse than the imperialist xenophobic immortal lizards.
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Dec 31, 2024 21:38
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C41gKfiihiM This video mention's the Culture's orbitals and does a good job of depicting their size.
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Dec 31, 2024 22:26
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Hahahaha the ship in charge of tailing Sleeper Service going from "heehee the crew will like me for this 2 weeks vacation" to "hmmm okay how about everyone gets a day to wrap up and I'll write nice emails about it then I gotta go fast" to "okay nvm y'all got like 45 minutes" to "oh my god fuckin humans r so slowed omggg gently caress it sorry y'all I'm gone" *in transit crew ejected into space safety bubbles"
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Jan 1, 2025 04:06
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No more Mr. Nice Mind
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Jan 1, 2025 14:23
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You missed fuckers!
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Jan 1, 2025 21:58
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Khanstant posted:You missed fuckers! such a good line 
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Jan 1, 2025 22:00
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hannibal posted:I've read all of the Culture books and liked the newer ones a lot more than the older ones, for what it's worth. Matter, Surface Detail and Hydrogen Sonata are a little more straightforward in their storytelling vs Use of Weapons or Consider Pheblas. I think this is also reflected in Banks books he publishes without the M. His early books are difficult - both in subject matter and trying to be a bit clever with the structure. Later on he mellows and still grapples with similar topics but in a much less abrasive manner. Reading The Wasp Factory and then jumping to The Quarry would have a similar effect.
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Jan 3, 2025 18:59
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A lot of his non-SF fiction is bleak, the kind of stuff you never want to re-read. I can recommend The Bridge though.
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Jan 3, 2025 23:42
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Whit is pretty good too.
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Jan 4, 2025 00:16
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My wife's friend was talking about one of her favorite books being The Crow Road and she had no idea he did scifi.
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Jan 4, 2025 01:13
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Byr sucks. It's also interesting the Culture basically has "lovely parents" as a feature. I guess going all in on hedonism will do that, since parenting is a huge obligation and commitment for a society built around just feeling good all the time.
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Jan 4, 2025 19:40
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Rereading Player of Games. Every time i see Mawhrin-Skel i read it as Martin Shkreli.
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Jan 4, 2025 20:01
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