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The Chad Jihad posted:Perhaps the reason no 4x is good is the 4x fanbase is all idiosyncratic unpleasable cranks chasing after the nostalgic highs of their childhood, laced with the mad possibility of what that child thought the games of the now-present would be like. I will not be turning on my monitor I'm intending to make this OP a relatively comprehensive resource for 4X games (and 4x-alikes) and where to get them (Steam, GOG etc). If anything's missing, post in the thread or PM me. I haven't played all of these, so I'm not certain quite how 4X they are (but 4X-alikes are welcome anyway) THREAD AGENDA: * talk about 4X games, old and new, mainstream and niche * argue about which one is the best * stories of games you played * stupid in-jokes and alpha centauri quotes (don't over-do it!!  )* letting posters know when a 4X has a really good discount somewhere * interesting mechanics, how they compare between games * if there's a specific thread for it, go there to post about strategies and minutae * It is every citizen's final duty to go into the tanks and become one with all the people. Here's an exhaustive list of 4X on wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_4X_video_games And below, a selection. Feel free to recommend additions, especially niche ones. UPCOMING GAMES
HISTORICAL 4X
        4X IN SPAAAAAACE
         SCI-FI 4X BUT STILL ON A PLANET
     FANTASY 4X
   
Microplastics fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Apr 6, 2023 |
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Jun 23, 2020 08:36
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MOO2 is still the king. So many space 4Xs have boring technology trees but in MOO2 you can eventually have teleporting deathstars that use weaponized black holes. Also the Antaraans are great baddies. But I think after that my favourite has to be Endless Legend. Amplitude really outdid themselves there. Endless Space 2 is great too, but the AI is especially bad.
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Jun 23, 2020 08:49
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Shadow Empires needs to be added to space but still on a planet category.
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Jun 23, 2020 09:49
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Put Sword of the Stars on there for the what a shame factor. I like EL more than ES. Mostly due to the combat. In EL you can design your unit and think up a tactic or role you want your unit to play. Some of the faction's unit line up can result in very diverse army play style. In ES I feel it's such a waste to have so many systems and art asset tied into something that's so hands off. Space 4X really need to think up a more interesting combat system than laser counter shield and kinetic counter armor.
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Jun 23, 2020 11:52
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Fantasy 4X desperately needs MASTER OF MAGIC  (Steam GOG)    The game is a bit like Civilization but with wizards in, so you get to cast spells, summon demons and monsters and unicorns, craft magical weapons for your heroes, etc. Master of Orion 2 copied some mechanics (like the heroes and how individual colonies/towns are improved) from MoM, and a lot of more modern fantasy 4Xes try to ape MoM with varying levels of success. I personally have sunk some hours into Warlock - Master of the Arcane (steam). Master of Magic is a ridiculously broken / unbalanced game even with the latest official patch, but there's a somewhat active modding community still around! I've not tried them out that much, so if someone more informed on those comes around, please share your wisdom 
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Jun 23, 2020 11:57
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Nice, I'll add those in shortlypedro0930 posted:Space 4X really need to think up a more interesting combat system than laser counter shield and kinetic counter armor. It doesn't help that Space 4X can't spice things up with terrain. It's far more engaging when you can move units behind a hill or cross a river or get higher ground, but in space all you can do is... drift through the featureless void 
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Jun 23, 2020 12:01
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Rappaport posted:I personally have sunk some hours into Warlock - Master of the Arcane (steam). I really enjoyed Warlock 2. It's extremely casual, but it has some really fun playstyles depending on faction, and the setting is really neat (It was Age of Sigmar before Age of Sigmar existed). One of the things you could do is play as a Mana-focused undead faction wizard and push your way to victory by terraforming every plane into undead lands. Fun as hell.
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Jun 23, 2020 12:10
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You could add warlock 2, which is still ridiculously fun with the Renaissance mod. Also, age of wonders and planetfall are good (tactical) 4x. Also, tried playing pax nova, but got so bored that I couldn’t finish. Maybe I’m missing something, but it seems extremely mediocre. I think that games like CIv VI, endless space, and endless legend set the bar so high (yes, debatable I know) that it’s hard for any indie game to compete, especially when every space 4x seems to just copy master of Orion to varying degrees of success. I get that 4x doesn’t sell like shooters, but you’ve got everything from like Gears of war to CoD to Tom Clancy to Titanfall to Farcry on that side, and they’re all fairly different (from what I gather-I don’t like to play shooters). Old World seems to be using some novel concepts, but it just seems like there is a ton of design space for innovation that just never gets used.
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Jun 23, 2020 12:13
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pedro0930 posted:Put Sword of the Stars on there for the what a shame factor. SotS (the first of course) is still quite playable I think. Also Distant Worlds should be in here.
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Jun 23, 2020 12:29
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Over the years I've developed the opinion 4X games are something that I enjoy in theory way more than in practice, because for so many of them it feels like all the interesting gameplay happens at the start, begins to stagnate as you hit the midgame and becomes utterly mind-numbing at the end game. The last I really recall enjoying was Endless Space (though the endgame definitely got boring/repetitive) and I think I've just burnt myself out on the genre a bit. That said I've definitely not been paying attention to the genre for a long while and should probably try Endless Legend and/or Age of Wonders: Planetfall, both of which looked interesting and I've heard pretty much nothing but praise for. Alamoduh posted:Old World seems to be using some novel concepts, but it just seems like there is a ton of design space for innovation that just never gets used. This hits the nail on the head for me, so many of the new 4Xes that I see feel like identical cookie-cutter designs with vaguely changed art assets. Has there been anything recent that's really played around with the genre/mashed up with other genres in an interesting way? For anyone looking for a mobile 4X experience I'd like to recommend Battle for Polytopia, a micro 4X where you have just 30 turns to lead your tribe to victory around a tiny map. You can accomplish a surprising amount within those 30 turns, and while the mechanics are simplistic they hide a fair amount of strategic depth. The hard time limit, small map size and extremely focused nature of the game does a really good job of capturing all the neat parts of 4X games in a bite sized chunk.
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Jun 23, 2020 12:45
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SotS is still fine, It's combat is still the best in space 4X's by far, The Other X's are just basics and nothing is bad about it except for freighters. Sad that SotS2 ruins it by SotS2 being what SotS2 is.
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Jun 23, 2020 14:03
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indigenous lifeforms
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Jun 23, 2020 14:29
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What, no love for Imperialism I & II? Granted they don’t solve the tedium problem for endgame 4Xs, but more than any other game in the genre they made the economy aspect manageable while highlighting how diplomacy, trade, and war build off each other
Triskelli fucked around with this message at 14:39 on Jun 23, 2020 |
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Jun 23, 2020 14:33
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this definitely needs a hall of fame feat. the best and worst patch notes of all time. i still cherish the SOTS2 patch notes that featured multiple 'fixes' that really only broke the game further. vaguely remember something with asteroids spawning in stars and causing ctd's?
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Jun 23, 2020 23:17
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oscarthewilde posted:this definitely needs a hall of fame feat. the best and worst patch notes of all time. i still cherish the SOTS2 patch notes that featured multiple 'fixes' that really only broke the game further. vaguely remember something with asteroids spawning in stars and causing ctd's? You could just list every Stellaris patch note in to see the cycle of fix something broken (maybe) while breaking something fixed.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:44
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Triskelli posted:What, no love for Imperialism I & II? Granted they don’t solve the tedium problem for endgame 4Xs, but more than any other game in the genre they made the economy aspect manageable while highlighting how diplomacy, trade, and war build off each other They're really good- I think my only problem is that on higher difficulties you must trade heavily for raw materials and make quick trades and it would be so much easier if there was a good interface for automating that(trading enough to maintain a stock, for example). They do have the flaw in that the minor powers need to stick around for the game to be interesting market-wise, and the penalties for attacking them just don't outweigh the advantages of having a bigger supply of oil/steel for imp1 or grain for imp2.
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Jun 23, 2020 23:54
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Panzeh posted:They're really good- I think my only problem is that on higher difficulties you must trade heavily for raw materials and make quick trades and it would be so much easier if there was a good interface for automating that(trading enough to maintain a stock, for example). Yeah, I would pay a ton of money for a remaster with some QoL fixes for either of the Imperialisms.
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Jun 27, 2020 20:23
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oscarthewilde posted:this definitely needs a hall of fame feat. the best and worst patch notes of all time. i still cherish the SOTS2 patch notes that featured multiple 'fixes' that really only broke the game further. vaguely remember something with asteroids spawning in stars and causing ctd's? Didn't that one have a bug where admirals could be assigned to lead asteroids too? Among about a billion other things going wrong with that game lol
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Jun 27, 2020 21:24
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Fall from Heaven 2 deserves an entry under Fantasy imo
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Jun 27, 2020 21:29
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Does anyone have a clue how to get an Ambassador in Old World? I was hoping to, uh, beg my way out of an early war where Egypt was just overrunning me, but it tells me I need "Ambassador". My assumption is I need a character with that trait, in which case, I've already hosed up?
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Jun 28, 2020 06:16
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Beamed posted:Does anyone have a clue how to get an Ambassador in Old World? I was hoping to, uh, beg my way out of an early war where Egypt was just overrunning me, but it tells me I need "Ambassador". My assumption is I need a character with that trait, in which case, I've already hosed up? There's a tech that lets you select an ambassador (I think it's Administration, but considering how often things are being tweaked in EA don't take my word for it) and once you have it you can assign any valid diplomatic character in your court as one. It's one of the buttons in the upper right area.
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Jun 28, 2020 07:02
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Mode 7 posted:This hits the nail on the head for me, so many of the new 4Xes that I see feel like identical cookie-cutter designs with vaguely changed art assets. Has there been anything recent that's really played around with the genre/mashed up with other genres in an interesting way? Stellaris tweaked the formula a bit by having actual galaxy wide crisis level threats. On their worst day the Antarians in MOO2 would sack one system. Stellaris has massive endgame threats that can require the whole galaxy to defeat. I can't think of another 4x game with that mechanic. Unfortunately, what Stellaris does NOT do is have a solution to the micromanagement hell most 4x space games find themselves in. Managing one planet is fun but managing 100 planets is a chore. MOO2's solution was to just have fewer planets which worked for the time. Stellaris lets you put planets in sectors but the crap AI means they'll never run as efficiently as they would if you ran them yourself. Is there a 4x that ever managed to square that circle?
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Jun 28, 2020 07:02
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GamingHyena posted:Unfortunately, what Stellaris does NOT do is have a solution to the micromanagement hell most 4x space games find themselves in. Managing one planet is fun but managing 100 planets is a chore. MOO2's solution was to just have fewer planets which worked for the time. Stellaris lets you put planets in sectors but the crap AI means they'll never run as efficiently as they would if you ran them yourself. Is there a 4x that ever managed to square that circle? Sword of the Stars had a very sensible management system, where everything was managed by a simple MONEY -> RESEARCH slider. The more money you used on research, the less you had to buy stuff. And planets simply grew by themselves, no buildings required. You later get costumizable space stations and the whole freighter system to tango with, but the game's management side is incredibly intuitive, letting you focus on its fantastic travel and combat mechanics.
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Jun 28, 2020 08:14
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I am rather fond of Stars In Shadow for a 4X in spaaaace. Nothing particularly unique about the graphics, tech trees and such but I put a lot of hours into it for reasons I still cannot fully explain.
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Jun 28, 2020 09:19
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How is Age of Wonders 3? What about Planetfall?
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Jun 28, 2020 09:34
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Age of Wonders 3 has a lot of variety to offer. Lots of different play style thanks to the combination of classes and races. You can go for all terrain strategic mobility with druid, you can have mass concealed army with rogue, you can outproduce your opponent with and win with brute force with warlord and dreadnought. Also I think the AI is better in AoW3 than in Planetfall (though I may just remembered wrong because I haven't played AoW3 for awhile). Economy model is simpler...you have pop, your colony annex new land and PoI and resource node generate resources for you. Planetfall has a more complex economic model but basically you can specialized your colony based on the terrain around your city. It has a new unit modding system so you can customize all your units with different gear so you can adapt to many different situation. Though you need sometimes to get to know all the tools the different faction and secret tech offer. Graphic is much better, though I wish they'd work on the Sfx and animation more. Some ability literally has no sfx or sound or animation.
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Jun 28, 2020 10:08
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Pharnakes posted:Also Distant Worlds should be in here. I could have sworn this was something else. What's the name of that game which is basically all just microsoft windows and barely any graphics to speak of? The really complex one when you can control battles down to the second but also build ships over the course of years. Basically "4X: The Spreadsheet"
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Jun 28, 2020 10:15
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Aurora! Heck it even has a new C++ version out.
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Jun 28, 2020 10:46
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Super Jay Mann posted:There's a tech that lets you select an ambassador (I think it's Administration, but considering how often things are being tweaked in EA don't take my word for it) and once you have it you can assign any valid diplomatic character in your court as one. It's one of the buttons in the upper right area. Thanks for this! I don't think I can overstate how much more enjoyable I'm finding Old World than I ever did Civ 6, though I'm having trouble putting my finger on why. I think some of it is the obvious "they actually put effort into it" and "the AI knows how to play, sort of", but it's also the more subtle immersion the game gives, and the synergy of the systems feels natural and not just tacked on. I'll effort post if I figure it out a little better. e: I also think making it so you can only settle city sites was an inspired decision, completely getting rid of the hamfisted approach Civ 5 and 6 both took.
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Jun 28, 2020 21:00
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Does anyone in the thread have any experience with Wizard Warfare? I'm not sure if I should pick it up or just get Master of Magic.
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Jun 28, 2020 21:19
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habituallyred posted:Aurora! Heck it even has a new C++ version out. Aurora still stands out in my memory as the only game I've ever encountered that made Dwarf Fortress seem easy to grok.
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Jun 28, 2020 21:29
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THE BAR posted:Sword of the Stars had a very sensible management system, where everything was managed by a simple MONEY -> RESEARCH slider. The more money you used on research, the less you had to buy stuff. And planets simply grew by themselves, no buildings required. You later get costumizable space stations and the whole freighter system to tango with, but the game's management side is incredibly intuitive, letting you focus on its fantastic travel and combat mechanics. Yeah, I really wish more 4X games took an approach similar to this, though maybe in slightly more detail. I really don't want to worry myself with building individual improvement buildings on each planet/city/colony. Just let me do a few sweeping choices for each one and get on with ruling my empire, I'm an emperor, not a mayor/governor. Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jun 28, 2020 |
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Jun 28, 2020 21:29
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Is Planetfall actually a civilization-like, build your own empire, or is it closer to Heroes Of Might And Magic where everything is pre-set? I tried the earlier AoWs and they were very Might And Magicish, and I just don’t find that as fun as more free form 4Xs.
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Jul 4, 2020 08:05
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Endless Legend is still my jam, and I've bought every expansion. It's so pretty and it just works so well, and once you get a feel for the system it becomes really intuitive. I never got the hang of some of the races, but I absolutely shred with the Broken Lords. Sad to hear Symbiosis is the final DLC, but I'm looking forward to seeing what Amplitude does next.
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Jul 4, 2020 08:26
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skeleton warrior posted:Is Planetfall actually a civilization-like, build your own empire, or is it closer to Heroes Of Might And Magic where everything is pre-set? I tried the earlier AoWs and they were very Might And Magicish, and I just don’t find that as fun as more free form 4Xs. It's still very Might And Magicish, but less so than the previous iterations. There's more complex city building and it's possible to win via megaprojects, but the focus is the tactical combat.
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Jul 4, 2020 16:54
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Achernar posted:Does anyone in the thread have any experience with Wizard Warfare? I'm not sure if I should pick it up or just get Master of Magic. This seems cool. I haven't tried it yet, but I'm curious.
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Jul 5, 2020 01:14
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GamingHyena posted:Unfortunately, what Stellaris does NOT do is have a solution to the micromanagement hell most 4x space games find themselves in. Managing one planet is fun but managing 100 planets is a chore. MOO2's solution was to just have fewer planets which worked for the time. Stellaris lets you put planets in sectors but the crap AI means they'll never run as efficiently as they would if you ran them yourself. Is there a 4x that ever managed to square that circle? Master of Orion. I've always found it to be better than MoO2 for the simple reason that when you unlock new industry tech, you don't have to gently caress around with a buildings screen - you just up industrial spending and your governors build the industry. The UI in MoO is ancient, and honestly a modern take on MoO where the economy was dead simple would be fantastic. Just have settings where you task a planet with a focus on an output, and then abstract the economic layer so that the strategic decision of creating a research/industry/etc. world is there, but without the fiddly micromanagement. Granted, if you want to min/max MoO to the same degree you can min/max Civ IV with slavery, then it gets incredibly tedious, as optimal play requires shuttling pops around between worlds constantly, and adjusting spending empire wide can be a pain because, again, the UI/game is ancient. It does give nice convenient buttons for things like adjusting industrial/ecological spending automatically when appropriate techs change the number. The upshot of this is that then the AI can actually play the economic game too. If the game is designed with the economics being simple, and the grand strategic layer being the focus, then you don't have to worry about the AI being unable to actually play the economic side of the game. I also can't stand when space 4X games insist on having ground troops. They're completely irrelevant the vast majority of the time, although, again, MoO does it well by making your population into ground troops/settlers. Sending an invasion force is an investment, and an investment that can be shot down if the enemy has control of the system. You can also steal technology by capturing worlds, which again makes the investment more interesting and enticing. Better ground combat tech reduces the cost for you and increases the cost for the enemy, and you can get situations where you force the enemy to bomb out your planets, denying them the ability to steal your technology and stalling their fleets in orbits for precious turns while you get a chance to build up a counterattack. Compare that to Stellaris ground units where you have to go to individual planet screens and build troops at a relatively trivial cost, and then they exist on the space layer and have to be ordered around. It's tedious, boring, and there's not really any interaction. Sure, you get techs to get cool armies, but it's just for flavor's sake, as you end up making sure that your number is bigger than the enemy's number.
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Jul 5, 2020 05:21
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Did someone say Alpha Centauri quotes?
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Jul 5, 2020 05:57
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Dirk the Average posted:Master of Orion. I've always found it to be better than MoO2 for the simple reason that when you unlock new industry tech, you don't have to gently caress around with a buildings screen - you just up industrial spending and your governors build the industry. The UI in MoO is ancient, and honestly a modern take on MoO where the economy was dead simple would be fantastic. There's a modern remake of MoO 1 in the works (public beta) with an updated UI available, if anyone is into that sort of thing.
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Jul 5, 2020 05:58
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My biggest concern with 4Xs is noted in the title of this thread: the AI. I've been playing Civ 4 for 15 god drat years because I haven't found a game that has a decent AI anywhere like it. I'm not saying the AI is brilliant, but its competent and regularly challenges me. What other 4X games have an AI that isn't braindead?
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Jul 5, 2020 06:00
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