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orangelex44 posted:Another game to add to OP: Its... okay. Pretty much a 40k version of the Warlock games. But without the pick one of three perk system. The Orks are great to play as due to their regeneration and scavenging. Everybody else seemed like a slug in comparison.
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Aug 21, 2020 06:07
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toasterwarrior posted:Funnily enough, the one game I would pick above all 4Xs as the platonic ideal of "game that is too complex for its AI to play legit," I would pick Sid Meier's Colonization. I love it for going all management/logistical sim in a civ-like, but lmao if the AI even experiences a semblance of what the player does in that game The kind of neat thing about it is that the AI explicitly doesn't need to engage with the same mechanics as the player. The other factions are explicitly different from yours, and how they deal with their economy can be handwaved away, so that the only real major interactions you have are diplomacy when relations are okay, and war when they are not.
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Aug 21, 2020 10:30
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Only very debatably a 4X, but AI Wars takes a great approach by having the computer not even remotely be playing the same game as the player. Always struck me as Gordion knot solution that should be picked up more.
Bug Squash fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Aug 22, 2020 |
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Aug 21, 2020 10:35
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Beamed posted:I keep wanting to dive into Shadow Empire, but I get super intimidated by the interface when I first boot it up. Is there any getting started guide that can help acclimate? Dastactics has a pretty good tutorial that got me started. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BivVweJ5-iA
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Aug 22, 2020 07:21
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Bug Squash posted:Only very debatably a 4X, but AI Wars takes a great approach by having the computer not even remotely be playing the same game as the player. Always struck me as Gordion knot solution that should be picked up more. Khorne fucked around with this message at 16:11 on Aug 22, 2020 |
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Aug 22, 2020 15:54
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Khorne posted:as long as your objective isn't to win or understand anything at all without a lot of effort. I think I see why you generally don't like 4X games.
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Aug 22, 2020 16:22
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Chomp8645 posted:I think I see why you generally don't like 4X games. I left out that they're the only 4X video games I've played outside of some 90s stuff. I always plan on buying the latest civ when the price drops and never get around to it. I don't mind the not winning part. In a way it gives the game more longevity and brings the focus to the journey. Khorne fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Aug 22, 2020 |
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Aug 22, 2020 16:42
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I don't even thing I've ever even finished a 4x let alone win one. I will say I win in spirit since I get to the point where all I have to do to win is mop up the map but 
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Aug 22, 2020 17:45
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Khorne posted:AI War & AI War 2 are great. They're the only video game 4x I've really gotten into, and they're pretty good games as long as your objective isn't to win or understand anything at all without a lot of effort. It's hamstrung by being made by Arcen games, whose MO is to make some of the most interesting games in existence and then wreck them by fundamentally misunderstanding how to make them any good. Main problem with AI War 1, for instance, is that it front loads too much complexity making it unapproachable to new players. People complained that the tutorial was too complex for instance, and the dev response was that it was fine because established players enjoy replaying the tutorial repeatedly.  The concept that this was completely orthogonal to the purpose of a tutorial seemed irrelevant to them. I think they might be the most self defeating team I've ever known except for Kerberos. Which is a shame because they undoubtedly have tremendous talent (unlike Kerberos). Bug Squash fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Aug 22, 2020 |
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Aug 22, 2020 19:35
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Shadowlz posted:I don't even thing I've ever even finished a 4x let alone win one. I will say I win in spirit since I get to the point where all I have to do to win is mop up the map but on of the greatest secrets to enjoying 4x is knowing when to quit, yeah. Which 4xes remain engaging all the way to the end? I can't think of any outside of stuff where you can mess around being totally busted for fun, like MoO2 or MoM or something.
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Aug 22, 2020 22:10
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Relax Or DIE posted:on of the greatest secrets to enjoying 4x is knowing when to quit, yeah. Which 4xes remain engaging all the way to the end? I can't think of any outside of stuff where you can mess around being totally busted for fun, like MoO2 or MoM or something. The various "tech win" conditions seem to be made for this, you have an "I win!"-button without having to clear the entire god drat map. Still, the tedium of building up new planets/bases when you already have 50 of them seems nearly omnipresent, and even with various planetary governor AIs or what have you, those drat things are dumber than sacks of hammers  MoO 3 tried, sort of?, to address this, but that game is a trash fire in general, so  I'm not sure if this also falls under being totally busted for fun, but there's plenty of weird ways to win in SMAC too, one time I started nuking my enemies which is a big diplomatic no-no, and (for some reason that I do not understand to this day) the rest of the UN decided to literally drown the Planet by continually raising the sea levels. Not a bad plan per se, but guess who was the only one who had bothered to dome up all their cities? Yeah, that was an odd way to win...
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Aug 23, 2020 00:09
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I feel like with unit design in strategy games, you either have to make it as simple and unintrusive as possible, or go Full Armored Core with it and just offer a stupid amount of complexity and potential variety for people to mess with.
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Aug 23, 2020 00:16
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Relax Or DIE posted:on of the greatest secrets to enjoying 4x is knowing when to quit, yeah. Which 4xes remain engaging all the way to the end? I can't think of any outside of stuff where you can mess around being totally busted for fun, like MoO2 or MoM or something. Civ 4 Colonization manages it pretty well I think since the endgame is a big, difficult war of independence that the whole game builds up to. It's a cool experience going from "oh hell that's a lot of mans I don't think I can do this" to finally taking out the last of the royal troops after several turns of grueling battle.
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Aug 23, 2020 05:03
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And Moo2 was great for the endgame with the battles against the Antarans. XCOM and XCOM2 have a 4x overlay on top of the tactical game as well. That said, I never get the same sense of achievement in, say, Stellaris when I beat one of the "endgame" events. Maybe because the game doesn't end when you've succeeded? It's really the storytelling that makes a game compelling- either what the game provides (Alpha Centauri) or what stories it allows you to tell on your own ("My amphibious assault back in 1530 really brought down the Romans.")
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Aug 23, 2020 05:40
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Shadow Empire is a really great game. Go from coming out of technological dark age -> LASER CANNONS -> MAD nuke each other back to the dark ages because all your industry is burnt to a crisp. The ai is not TERRIBLE especially if you have a nemesis major. They can and will push you militarily if you make any mistakes. AtomikKrab fucked around with this message at 06:09 on Aug 23, 2020 |
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Aug 23, 2020 06:00
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Glass of Milk posted:XCOM and XCOM2 have a 4x overlay on top of the tactical game as well. No XCOM title is even remotely a 4X game as anyone anywhere understands them to be, except maybe yourself.
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Aug 23, 2020 06:47
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Here is the link for the Shadow Empire game thread. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3926377
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Aug 23, 2020 06:50
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WeedlordGoku69 posted:I feel like with unit design in strategy games, you either have to make it as simple and unintrusive as possible, or go Full Armored Core with it and just offer a stupid amount of complexity and potential variety for people to mess with. I want a 4x that genuinely offers AC levels of unit customization. Or even Gran Turismo, lemme tweak the stiffness of every last spring in my mech's arms or something. You really do need to either go big or go home, either will piss some people off but trying to split the difference usually pisses everyone off.
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Aug 23, 2020 07:06
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Ms Adequate posted:I want a 4x that genuinely offers AC levels of unit customization. Or even Gran Turismo, lemme tweak the stiffness of every last spring in my mech's arms or something. You really do need to either go big or go home, either will piss some people off but trying to split the difference usually pisses everyone off. Shadow empire lets you customize your units weapons/armor/engine. Bigger payloads are more expensive and chew up ammo, lighter is less damaging but easier to spam out.
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Aug 23, 2020 07:39
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Shadow Empire looks really cool but is just on the other side of the grog line for me, though close enough I'll probably take the jump at some point But it reminds me: did anyone else get into Armageddon Empires? I never got a great hold on it but remember having a good time
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Aug 23, 2020 10:12
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I'm ashamed to say that a good-looking UI is a bit of a must for me, and while i like the concept of Shadow Empire, the interface looks like horrible garbage. I don't mind grognardy option spam as long as the UI is pretty enough to compensate (stellaris for example). It's still on my wishlist though and I'll be keeping it on my radar for when I've run out of other games to play.
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Aug 23, 2020 10:47
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Bloodly posted:Distant Worlds seems to manage. But is that truly a 4X? I'd say it qualifies as a 4X, or at least, an honorary member. I tried Distant Worlds for a while but that game is heavy on the spreadsheets. Is the AI really capable? One thing I really liked about that game is how there is an uncontrollable private sector in your empire, that builds things like tourist attractions, but its up to you to protect them if you want to make money from them. It's not like every other 4X, or strategy game, where you control the actions of every facet of your empire, down to the lowliest peon. Zug zug.
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Aug 23, 2020 11:09
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Node posted:I'd say it qualifies as a 4X, or at least, an honorary member. That's been mentioned a couple times now and it has got me excited. It sounds a bit like simcity, in that private enterprise will come along if you just foster the right conditions for it, and then you reap the rewards of tax intake. I kinda wish Civ was a bit more like that. Instead you build every building like you're in the city planning department of the USSR (which is fine if you picked that ideology  ). Even trade routes are completely state-directed.
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Aug 23, 2020 11:16
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Imagine that, governments taxing big corporations. 
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Aug 23, 2020 11:36
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Anyone remember Stars! (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stars!) Or is that game just from my childhood. Say what you want about the graphics being rear end, the game mechanics almost completely opaque and incomprehensible, the ship designer being (understandably) archaic, or the fact that multiplayer games were carried out via e-mail, the race builder is probably the most robust I've ever tinkered with in a 4x, and the sheer variety of relatively unique races you can build with distinct strengths and weaknesses has spoiled me for every other games faction/race builder since. Between Stars! and SotS, games where each race plays the exact same, only this one gets +3 to Gun and that one gets +4 to Science, just disappoint me.
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Aug 23, 2020 14:54
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Relax Or DIE posted:But it reminds me: did anyone else get into Armageddon Empires? I never got a great hold on it but remember having a good time I tried very hard with Armageddon Empires, but in the end I have to say I think it's just a bad game. The strategy layer might be ok, but the combat has too much randomness in it to feel rewarding, and it never misses a chance to make you take six mouse clicks when one would have done.
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Aug 23, 2020 16:14
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I'm currently replaying a game from my childhood. https://store.steampowered.com/app/490370/Imperium_Galactica_II/ It holds up surprisingly well. There are a bunch of ideas I wish modern 4X would incorporate, like how planets will mostly grow their cities on their own. You can just sell your ships and tanks on the galactic market once they are obsolete, though other factions may then use them against you. It has a fairly useful spy system. The land RTS portion has a few fun gimmicks, like calling strikes from ships in orbit. Planetary defense cannons will help defend the planet from attacks but if they are destroyed it's likely that surrounding buildings will also have taken hits. You can set a rally point on a fleet and have reinforcements travel there automatically.
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Aug 23, 2020 20:30
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Chomp8645 posted:No XCOM title is even remotely a 4X game as anyone anywhere understands them to be, except maybe yourself. Well, I've always considered myself to be free and easy. Seriously, though, that's fair. You do expand and exterminate, though. 2X?
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Aug 24, 2020 03:57
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Relax Or DIE posted:Shadow Empire looks really cool but is just on the other side of the grog line for me, though close enough I'll probably take the jump at some point A cool game that I spent way too much time doing gimmick runs in. Communist Imperial runs where I built decks without a leader. Hive decks with only eggs as units. Invisible almost everything as the mutants. And of course cyborg Machine Legion decks, the worst of both man and machine. Lots of cool ideas in that one, like how you could trade materiel resources for a better chance to go first and get the AP you need to play the really big cards. Yeah combat could get pretty frustrating, even with action cards mitigating the worst results. Pity the whole Adobe Acrobat thing meant that multiplayer was not in the cards. I had hopes for Last Days of Old Earth, but it wasn't a very good knockoff. Shadow Empire wise designing anything more advanced than an infantryman is basically that one dril tweet: Me designing a tank: Haha gently caress Yeah!!! Yes!! Me supplying a tank: Well this loving sucks. What the gently caress.
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Aug 24, 2020 05:52
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Lawman 0 posted:Gonna start with my personal favorite the space empires series where in V (the last game in the series) the AI was genuinely incredibly stupid and would fall for tricks again and again. I'm glad to not be the only person holding a candle for Space Empires! SE4 was probably my favourite and we dumped massive hours into it as kids
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Sep 4, 2020 10:44
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mfcrocker posted:I'm glad to not be the only person holding a candle for Space Empires! SE4 was probably my favourite and we dumped massive hours into it as kids The amount of astounding bullshit you could get up to in that game was egregious. Rearrange every wormhole to your advantage? Stealthed regenerating planet destroyer? Trinary Dyson sphere systems? Capture an enemy colony ship to get colonists that breath a different atmosphere to get better use out of your planets? Espionage subvert an enemy psychic ship with mind control powers, leading to a cascade of them mind controlling more and more ships? Wish more of it came early enough in the tech tree to actually matter in a game.
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Sep 4, 2020 11:15
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Bug Squash posted:The amount of astounding bullshit you could get up to in that game was egregious. Rearrange every wormhole to your advantage? Stealthed regenerating planet destroyer? Trinary Dyson sphere systems? Capture an enemy colony ship to get colonists that breath a different atmosphere to get better use out of your planets? Espionage subvert an enemy psychic ship with mind control powers, leading to a cascade of them mind controlling more and more ships? Yeah some of the optional tech trees in particular were absolute comedy. Space 4Xs sometimes forget that being a colossal dick can be a joy; I'm glad Stellaris eventually remembered that and gave more options for utterly wrecking people's poo poo
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Sep 4, 2020 11:53
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Bug Squash posted:The amount of astounding bullshit you could get up to in that game was egregious. Rearrange every wormhole to your advantage? Stealthed regenerating planet destroyer? Trinary Dyson sphere systems? Capture an enemy colony ship to get colonists that breath a different atmosphere to get better use out of your planets? Espionage subvert an enemy psychic ship with mind control powers, leading to a cascade of them mind controlling more and more ships? How is the AI? Does it use some of the schemes you described?
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Sep 4, 2020 11:56
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For 4X in space its worth throwing Stellar Monarch in there. It goes the other way from most 4X in that it tries to simulate playing as a leader of a galactic empire so you have limited actions per turn and the focus is managing your court and admirals and setting military objectives & research goals rather than building every farm on every planet. It's singleplayer only and a lot of enemies play by very different rules than the player which can make for some interesting games. Saros fucked around with this message at 12:42 on Sep 4, 2020 |
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Sep 4, 2020 12:40
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teokarp posted:How is the AI? Does it use some of the schemes you described? The AI is loving dreadful
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Sep 4, 2020 12:46
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teokarp posted:How is the AI? Does it use some of the schemes you described? Don't be ridiculous, the AI is dreadful! All this stuff is mostly endgame clown on the AI time wasting. There are mods to improve the AI and add in really well designed races (United Floral Empire are amazingly well designed), but the underlying AI engine is much too primitive for anything clever.
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Sep 4, 2020 13:36
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teokarp posted:How is the AI? Does it use some of the schemes you described? lmao no about the only way to have a fulfilling game of it was to balance it out a bit with mods and then play by mail.
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Sep 7, 2020 03:50
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Ms Adequate posted:I want a 4x that genuinely offers AC levels of unit customization. Or even Gran Turismo, lemme tweak the stiffness of every last spring in my mech's arms or something. You really do need to either go big or go home, either will piss some people off but trying to split the difference usually pisses everyone off. I remember when I was just getting started in Aurora 4X and realized that to design a missile I was first going to need to design an engine for the missile, and then carefully balance range, yield, speed and size. Then I would need to research the launcher that fired it, also I couldn't make a fire-control system because I hadn't designed an active sensor system yet. To design the active sensors system you needed to balance sensor resolution, range, size. So you can either detect big things at long ranges but not small things, or small things at short ranges, or both but the sensor is going to be enormous. Also more powerful active sensors were easier to detect via passive EM sensors, which were also something I needed to design. Eventually I designed a ship. It took 1 in game year to build but died in about 5 minutes of combat because my AMMs were not fast enough to get good hit rates against my opponents ASMs. Also it looks like this:    There was a great community let's play done by bgreman a while back: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3474164&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 edit: O god that was 8 years ago. MagicBoots fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Sep 7, 2020 |
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Sep 7, 2020 04:24
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Sid Meier wrote a memoir: Sid Meier's Memoir!: A Life in Computer Games Needless to say, I already bought it.
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Sep 8, 2020 10:36
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Aurora is the most interesting game I will never play  Also what is this I hear about a DLC for Masters of Magic?
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Sep 8, 2020 12:53
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