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CommonShore
Jun 6, 2014

A true renaissance man



Pillbug

I'd be ok with a "don't poo poo on newbies" forum rule as long as it accompanies a rule against trolling by just asking questions

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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



I think there's a few basic ideas that we should just strive for.

- Be respectful, even if the other person isn't.
- Act in good faith and assume the other party is as well unless they prove they aren't.
- Debate, don't attack.
- Go after ideas, not posters.

That's not always easy. I fail on one or all of them frequently. But like we sometimes actively reject them in the name of a joke or ideas, especially with serious and emotional subjects. And I don't think that really accomplishes anything except amuse the in group and potentially drive someone off or maybe even cause some harm.

Senerio
Oct 19, 2009

Ooh! Are we messing with Adora?



Honestly, all my complaints about the forum boil down to one thing:

Every time some news story pops up, someone posts one of the same like 8 burns (hey guys, Vince/Cornette/etc... bad!), which is then emptyquoted like 8 times, sometimes with a or similar smilie attached.

It just fills the thread with a ton of white noise that makes finding the actual news story annoying.

Honestly the Velveteen Dream stuff is the latest example of this I can think of off the top of my head, but it really does turn me off the forums sometimes. I can't even speak out against it, because usually people would take that as me defending the stupid decision, and not trying to figure out what the gently caress actually happened.

Cavauro
Jan 9, 2008



one thing i don't want to see anymore on here is those videos of cats going crazy and saying "waowaowaowaowaowaowaowao" really fast and looking around all bewildered-looking, because someone is petting them on or near the rear end. the cat is being sexually gratified when this happens and it's very obvious and gross. personally i think people are a little bit sick in the head and pretending they don't know so that they can keep doing it.

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

GET BACK UP

STAC Goat posted:

I think there's a few basic ideas that we should just strive for.

- Be respectful, even if the other person isn't.
- Act in good faith and assume the other party is as well unless they prove they aren't.
- Debate, don't attack.
- Go after ideas, not posters.

That's not always easy. I fail on one or all of them frequently. But like we sometimes actively reject them in the name of a joke or ideas, especially with serious and emotional subjects. And I don't think that really accomplishes anything except amuse the in group and potentially drive someone off or maybe even cause some harm.

Yeah, I've said it before but it takes no effort to ask people what they meant or what their intentions were. If they misspoke they'll tell you and you can have a cool chill conversation. If they didn't misspeak and really meant the horrible thing they said, and they'll tell you if they did, then you can drag them. But we all have got to stop coming in at a 10.

JUNGLE BOY
Sep 22, 2019





STAC Goat posted:

I think there's a few basic ideas that we should just strive for.

- Be respectful, even if the other person isn't.
- Act in good faith and assume the other party is as well unless they prove they aren't.
- Debate, don't attack.
- Go after ideas, not posters.

That's not always easy. I fail on one or all of them frequently. But like we sometimes actively reject them in the name of a joke or ideas, especially with serious and emotional subjects. And I don't think that really accomplishes anything except amuse the in group and potentially drive someone off or maybe even cause some harm.

If were gonna create space for another bad faith poster like the Saudi Arabia transphobe to abuse good will and ruin threads again Im noping the gently caress out of here. This forum was far too lenient for far too long on multiple posters that drove off actual members of the community. There are numerous posters that started watching wrestling in the past year and they werent run off so Im not sure what problem were trying to solve here.

Aye Doc
Jul 19, 2007

my name is john carter



Bluedeanie posted:

The only posters who know about my shameful wrestling viewing habits viciously shame me off site and in private, which is how it should be imo.

The mma side of the forums has this problem as well. It's ok and funny sometimes if they are being an rear end in a top hat unprovoked, but I agree the piling on of new people who post the "wrong" opinion may in fact be part of why the mma threads are like seven posts a day from a dozen people making fun of Tito Ortiz. It's ok to let people ask why you can't just put your hips above someone's head and let their takedown momentum pass harmlessly underneath you, it will give us new funny things to discuss instead of which members of a far-right death militia will be challenging for the welterweight title

i like this post

i remember there was that poster a while back who came in and posted something kind of "dumb" if you will, defining "dumb" in this case as "lacking in knowledge of the customs and memes of a very old and sparsely populated fight sports forum" and basically everyone came running just to fire off their best MMA in-jokes at the poster to shame and mock them. and sure it led to that hilarious post where they said some absolutely hilarious poo poo like "Oh I see how it is now. Game on." and it was an extremely good post and we all got a good laugh at that part. but I'm pretty sure they didn't end up posting in the threads anymore and heck, why would they bother coming back to a buncha people who are just unwelcoming and antagonistic.

to conclude my brief brain spasm put to text,

CommonShore posted:

I'd be ok with a "don't poo poo on newbies" forum rule as long as it accompanies a rule against trolling by just asking questions

what if we didn't poo poo on anybody. what if we took the principles that The Best Friends and Orange Cassidy preach, and used friendship, kindness, and unity to become the best dang punch sports posting forum on the planet.

Rarity
Oct 21, 2010

Excuse me, I'd like to
speak to the moderator




JUNGLE BOY posted:

Saudi Arabia transphobe

These were two separate people

But yeah, agreed. Like if someone's gonna say something nice about WWE then they shouldn't be getting hugely poo poo on for that alone but the stuff that posters like Mel and Gonzo were doing was allowed to run for way too long. Back to the original topic though, perhaps there should just be a chill positive WWE thread where anyone who wants to just enjoy WWE can have a space to enjoy the show. I've been on internet boards in the past where divisive media has been given that response and it's worked really well.

yea ok
Jul 27, 2006



There's been a 'be positive about WWE' thread in the past. It wasn't very active lol. I don't really see a problem with n00bies, though. Obviously there's going to be an insularity here, the majority of us have been posting together for like a decade. In the particular case of EMF, since he's been talked about a lot lately in this thread, you have to remember he would say things like 'this forum would celebrate the death of Owen Hart today because it'd be a WWE wrestler dying'. It's not like everyone decided to kick his nut sack for no reason. IDK what went on in PMs with him and Jerusalem beyond that they talked a lot, but he's obviously changed the way he interacts here in ways besides saying bad things about WWE from time to time.

Chris James 2
Aug 9, 2012

plz remember that it was ~ME~ who told you that everything you like is actually really not good, because I knew all along.







Speaking of, I was wondering/had been wondering for a bit if there's any interest (maybe by next week in time for that new episode?) in closing the old AEW Dark thread/starting a new AEW Dark thread that is preferably Not OP'd by that dipshit, and I wasn't sure whether to bring it up in here or in the AEW thread

Junpei Hyde
Mar 15, 2013


Never believe in lies





Chris James 2 posted:

Speaking of, I was wondering/had been wondering for a bit if there's any interest (maybe by next week in time for that new episode?) in closing the old AEW Dark thread/starting a new AEW Dark thread that is preferably Not OP'd by that dipshit, and I wasn't sure whether to bring it up in here or in the AEW thread

I'm down for this, it's weird to see that username still.

Eat My Fuc
May 29, 2007

Qu'ils mangent de la baise!


yea ok posted:

There's been a 'be positive about WWE' thread in the past. It wasn't very active lol. I don't really see a problem with n00bies, though. Obviously there's going to be an insularity here, the majority of us have been posting together for like a decade. In the particular case of EMF, since he's been talked about a lot lately in this thread, you have to remember he would say things like 'this forum would celebrate the death of Owen Hart today because it'd be a WWE wrestler dying'. It's not like everyone decided to kick his nut sack for no reason. IDK what went on in PMs with him and Jerusalem beyond that they talked a lot, but he's obviously changed the way he interacts here in ways besides saying bad things about WWE from time to time.

I regret saying that. I was letting my personal issues at the time and life stresses control me and make me lash out at everything. I am grateful to JRu for setting me straight privately for sure

yea ok
Jul 27, 2006



Eat My Fuc posted:

I regret saying that. I was letting my personal issues at the time and life stresses control me and make me lash out at everything. I am grateful to JRu for setting me straight privately for sure

It's all good, I'm not trying to put you on trial for past crimes or anything The important thing is that the Fuc has been Eaten by all involved.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



JUNGLE BOY posted:

If were gonna create space for another bad faith poster like the Saudi Arabia transphobe to abuse good will and ruin threads again Im noping the gently caress out of here. This forum was far too lenient for far too long on multiple posters that drove off actual members of the community. There are numerous posters that started watching wrestling in the past year and they werent run off so Im not sure what problem were trying to solve here.

I think that's why I said "assume good faith until they prove otherwise." Obviously that's an arbitrary line but the point is, when a poster makes an argument we shouldn't assume its trolling. Now if they don't engage in good faith or keep repeating it and ignoring the counters or attempts to engage, then sure. They're a troll or worse. But like... it shouldn't be the default setting. And sometimes I think we do that, especially with certain trigger subjects.

I'm definitely not arguing for Gonzo. I've had to take extended breaks from the forum in no small part to him back when he was in the in crowd of the RAW thread days. The guy proved himself time and time again to be a poo poo.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Sep 2, 2020

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

GET BACK UP

Mel is honestly a good example of what I mean by just asking someone's intentions. People asked Mel to clarify and explain why he took his stance, he decided it was the perfect time to take the mask off, and then everyone knew that this person probably shouldn't hang out with us anymore. It's a success story.

NienNunb
Feb 15, 2012

still a threat



I think my initial suggestion of "don't immediately assume everyone you disagree with over something banal is a bad faith racist or whatever" has become a bit twisted.

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

GET BACK UP

NienNunb posted:

I think my initial suggestion of "don't immediately assume everyone you disagree with over something banal is a bad faith racist or whatever" has become a bit twisted.

Nah, it's just that the bad faith racists love to talk about being racists so you really don't need to assume. Ask them, they'll either tell you they're bad faith racists or they tell you they're not and they really meant xyz and everyone stays chill.

JUNGLE BOY
Sep 22, 2019





Gumball Gumption posted:

Nah, it's just that the bad faith racists love to talk about being racists so you really don't need to assume. Ask them, they'll either tell you they're bad faith racists or they tell you they're not and they really meant xyz and everyone stays chill.

I think Im on a different version of the internet than you.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



I think when Gumball says "they'll tell you they're racist" they mean more "they'll show you" than "they'll admit it."

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

GET BACK UP

Yeah, I don't think they'll say "I, gumball Gumption, is a racist". I just radiate uncool white guy energy so I have had a lot of experience with racists thinking I'm in their club and my experience is that if someone says something lovely and you ask them to clarify they're often very happy to keep digging. I'm bad at examples and I don't want to think up racist examples but it's like, if someone writes something that can both be taken as racist or innocuous and you ask them to clarify the racist will keep saying racist things. The person who meant something innocuous will say something innocuous. And if you come at them friendly people are more willing to put their guards down and think you want to hear more of their awful thoughts.

My overall point is that we can be inclusive and be good at excluding bigots without starting at an 11 when we think sometimes said something really offensive or messed up. Take a minute to check for any human mistakes or misunderstanding in language, try to confirm, and if someone keeps digging the hole then turn it up to an 11.

JUNGLE BOY
Sep 22, 2019





The problem is there arent any real examples of the subforum going to 11 on a new poster for no reason, but there is an abundance of examples of toxic bad faith posters of various stripes being allowed to fester and eat an occasional probe for months or years until they feel emboldened enough to start getting more overt about their racism, transphobia, etc.

And in the months or years it takes to finally oust that person because were not allowed to confront bad faith posters or call it like it is and we have to take it to PMs and subject ourselves to further harassment, well intentioned long time members of the community are actual the ones who get run off out of frustration.

That has played out over and over again, and really enough is enough. I would love to see an honest example of what were talking about when were talking about running off new posters who arent trying to stir the pot

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

GET BACK UP

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to seem like I was specifically talking about new people because I agree, I think the majority of new posters get treated well. I also agree that we've had toxic posters fester though I think that festering is because discussion wasn't allowed. If you came in at a 5 or an 11 it was treated as unallowed because you could never post about posters. But asking people to ask some questions and try to clarify things before assuming bad faith doesn't feel like it would keep us from having those discussions. I'm also suggesting this because I can think of examples where a regular poster said something they meant as innocuous but was read as offensive by another person. Instead of asking something as simple as "what did you mean?" they immediately come in with his blazing. It's exhausting and it's especially exhausting when you see it directed at people who had a long history of posts that indicate they're not the person they're being accused of being.

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

GET BACK UP

And if you think it's naive hippie feel good bullshit, yeah it might be. I'm not asking us to embrace and protect lovely people but maybe my idea will accidently protect them. If you think it does fair and I'd love to know why because I also don't want to accidently protect them.

Lone Goat
Apr 16, 2003

When life gives you lemons, suplex those lemons.






so did Zeta Acosta actually get punted from FI or did they just stop posting here because we wouldn't stand for their poo poo?

Cavauro
Jan 9, 2008



stopped posting here after being quoted and told to gently caress off any time they posted. i don't believe there is an "understanding" with the mods not to post here either but i could be wrong

MotU
Mar 6, 2007

If you're gonna do it, do it with ~*~Axefaire~*~


Pillbug

Gumball Gumption posted:

Sorry, I didn't mean for it to seem like I was specifically talking about new people because I agree, I think the majority of new posters get treated well. I also agree that we've had toxic posters fester though I think that festering is because discussion wasn't allowed. If you came in at a 5 or an 11 it was treated as unallowed because you could never post about posters. But asking people to ask some questions and try to clarify things before assuming bad faith doesn't feel like it would keep us from having those discussions. I'm also suggesting this because I can think of examples where a regular poster said something they meant as innocuous but was read as offensive by another person. Instead of asking something as simple as "what did you mean?" they immediately come in with his blazing. It's exhausting and it's especially exhausting when you see it directed at people who had a long history of posts that indicate they're not the person they're being accused of being.

I got piled on by a few people as being racist for thinking that the story of Sasha Banks and Bayley laying on the ground was a funny concept and it literally almost entirely killed the subforum for me

Seth Rollins
Oct 24, 2001

i'll always take care of you


Muldoon

dr. gonzo got banned, he bought a new account, and every time he posted something innocuous, we'd get 6 people in a row telling him to gently caress off. he stopped posting here for some reason.

Junpei Hyde
Mar 15, 2013


Never believe in lies





Lone Goat posted:

so did Zeta Acosta actually get punted from FI or did they just stop posting here because we wouldn't stand for their poo poo?

He was never officially banned, but I presume the many posters calling him, truthfully, banned transphobic poster doctor gonzo convinced him it was good to leave.

IcePhoenix
Sep 18, 2005

Take me to your Shida





Seth Rollins posted:

dr. gonzo got banned, he bought a new account, and every time he posted something innocuous, we'd get 6 people in a row telling him to gently caress off. he stopped posting here for some reason.

probably because we made it clear we didn't want people that were banned for being transphobes here

that's just a guess though maybe it was something else

Prokhor Zakharov
Dec 31, 2008
Good luck with your depression!


Seth Rollins posted:

dr. gonzo got banned, he bought a new account, and every time he posted something innocuous, we'd get 6 people in a row telling him to gently caress off. he stopped posting here for some reason.

good.

And sorry but "treat all posting like it's good faith" is a really bad idea. That's the ruling that's contributed the most to QCS sliding into the completely worthless shithole that it is and I really don't want to see the same happen here.

Hopkins FBI
Jan 4, 2015

MY SACRED POSTING VOW IS NOTHING, FOR WHILE I STAKED MY HONOR UPON MY COMMITMENT TO NEVER SUPPORT JOSEPH R. B. JUNIOR I HAVE SCANDALOUSLY ABANDONED MY PRINCIPLES


We have to take every poster in good faith here on the forums owned by a serial woman beater.

Gumball Gumption
Jan 7, 2012

GET BACK UP

Prokhor Zakharov posted:

good.

And sorry but "treat all posting like it's good faith" is a really bad idea. That's the ruling that's contributed the most to QCS sliding into the completely worthless shithole that it is and I really don't want to see the same happen here.

The QCS version of it is dumb as hell and acts like every time you interact with a person you have to pretend none of the previous times happened. That's a rules lawyering nightmare that absolutely exists to allow really lovely people to dictate the rules.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



I think the point I was trying to go for was less "give everyone unlimited chances and never call out their poo poo or the obvious patterns or the bad stuff they do or say first time" and more "responding to a post with 'you're a troll' doesn't actually accomplish anything." If they are that's what they want. If they're not you're dismissing them out of hand. If a third party isn't sure they might see you as the in group dick. So I try and make a good faith response/counter argument. If the poster doesn't give me one back, or doesn't apologize for the thing they said or explain it better, or escalates, or whatever. Then I call them out/write them off.

But I don't think that applies to a guy who had a long established pattern of bad bigoted behavior and then tried to wipe it clean by registering under a new name that was obviously him and neither apologizing nor hiding and assuming he could take advantage of some kind of loop hole for people forgetting his bad character. Whatever "benefit of the doubt" he had got burned a long time ago.

I only occasionally wander into QCS so I can't speak for that. I'm certainly not suggesting we all lobotomize ourselves in every new thread and start clean. poo poo you do and say is gonna follow you and helps shape people's opinions of you.

Junpei Hyde
Mar 15, 2013


Never believe in lies





I think the vast majority of posters here know the difference between a differing opinion and bigotry

Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010



Fun Shoe

Every subforum that I've seen with some rule requiring you to assume good faith has turned to complete poo poo because all it does it give the worst kind of pedants and assholes cover to completely poo poo up any thread they don't like, so I'm absolutely against anything like that being implemented here.

NienNunb
Feb 15, 2012

still a threat



Didn't think this would be a controversial suggestion but ok

yea ok
Jul 27, 2006



I have good faith, none of the bad stuff

Seth Rollins
Oct 24, 2001

i'll always take care of you


Muldoon

we should compile lists of everyone who doesn't regularly post here, and monitor them on discord

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


I agree that I feel most people are more than capable of seeing the difference between somebody asking genuine questions and somebody coming in to try and troll or to say some horrible poo poo. Sometimes people get it wrong or take it too far, and it is the role of moderators or the IKs in those cases to try and get things back on track (which is also why reports are so valuable, because we might miss the drama otherwise). We don't always get it right either, but usually lovely posters get long probations and either gently caress off by themselves or end up banned (or in some lovely cases, actually learn and change and become valued posters), while actual genuine posters figure things out and just become part of the regular posting furniture to the point that nobody really remembers when they weren't always just around posting.

I honestly would put the loss of some former regular posters far more down to the lovely quality of WWE than anything else. Pretending to be nice and like lovely things WWE does isn't going to help that, and as has been shown time and again over and over when WWE is good people here will react positively to it (and the AEW and New Japan threads are bastions of positivity, because the promotions and their wrestling is good!). The fact that there are far less positive reactions to WWE nowadays is NOT the fault of the posters here, it's the fault of WWE.

NienNunb posted:

Like, not make a new official rule or anything. But stop treating everyone as if they're trying to hurt you with their opinions.

I do get where you're coming from with this and it's a fine idea even if the all-encompassing "everyone" makes it seem like a far more widespread issue than it is, with the obvious caveat (which I think you yourself noted at some point?) that if somebody is being a piece of poo poo then nobody is obligated to cater to them.

Jerusalem fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Sep 3, 2020

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Senerio
Oct 19, 2009

Ooh! Are we messing with Adora?



Jerusalem posted:

I honestly would put the loss of some former regular posters far more down to the lovely quality of WWE than anything else.

I absolutely 1000% disagree. The more toxic elements have frequently been running off the less toxic elements, and no major push was made to contain them until last year. The fact that (using him as an example because he was just talked about) DoctorGonzo had managed to post the way he did for as long as he did was a major contributing factor to the loss of regulars.

Senerio fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Sep 3, 2020

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