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Arcvasti
Jun 12, 2019

Never trust a bird.

TeeQueue posted:

During the last phase, every girl spams hope, every turn. This gives them all a +8 strength to all dice, making it kind of a cinematic boss.

It's not quite that high, because they won't draw Hope every turn, but yeah it helps a lot. Plus the counter die is helpful if Nihil targets you wrong. Justice is the mvp in this fight, because her %hp damage can actually hurt Nihil even with -5 power, and her deck only has four cards so she's by far the most reliable Hope spammer.

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Xenav
Feb 21, 2012

After what we've seen, we're going to need more than THAT to save us...


TeeQueue posted:

During the last phase, every girl spams hope, every turn.
Assuming I'm able to every turn. I tend to not. I know the hand limit is 8, and I've seen myself always keep the same 8 cards in hand when trying for the 9th one with a deck setup to be able to cycle 4 cards with enough Light Regain and Draw power to keep an action/light positive.

People I play games with can attest to my god awful luck. I know the response from some could be "Why are you playing a game that is heavy RNG based when you know you don't RNG?" Answer? Beats me.

Arcvasti posted:

It's not quite that high, because they won't draw Hope every turn, but yeah it helps a lot.
I figured enough to make sure I know what I'm using and how those tools work. I also can say "Screw the mechanics as intended." And win certain fights by NEVER adhering to their gimick, like Big Bird.

quote:

Justice is the mvp in this fight, because her %hp damage can actually hurt Nihil even with -5 power, and her deck only has four cards so she's by far the most reliable Hope spammer.
At least that +4 power average I had was helping when I was rolling below the average each time I've tried! I think last time, I actually got all 5 to the fight, which is bad, and then I got stuffed.

That run was a TON of fun! :shepicide:

Yinlock
Oct 21, 2008



Acerbatus posted:

I mean, if the head cared they have more than one arbiter and claw.

Do they though

Arbiters aren't really a common sight(and also might be clones??? this is just going by how zena looks like a younger binah and has an identical personality to garion) and not much is known about claws besides them suddenly showing up, murdering someone super hard, and leaving. We never actually see or hear about them being deployed in actual force, and the Head strikes me as the kind of ruler that lets the crushing misery of the status quo do most of it's work for it

Plus the Head had no issue with the library until then and clearly didn't expect Roland's final move, so it's also possible that those three were just monitoring things but were forced to move immediately before Angela could really get a handle on her EGO without the light

Yinlock fucked around with this message at 22:34 on Sep 21, 2021

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020

FORUMS
TERRORIST


We know from LC that they deployed at least two claws for that, and presumably the ordeal Fixers are based on something real.

I think if they didnt have a legitimate army, Diaz would have overthrown them with the Udjat by now.

Venuz Patrol
Mar 27, 2011


imo the biggest missed opportunity of ruina was not letting us see anything like the white fixers in lobotomy corp

Rogue AI Goddess
May 10, 2012

I enjoy the sight of humans on their knees.
That was a joke... unless..?


Venuz Patrol posted:

imo the biggest missed opportunity of ruina was not letting us see anything like the white fixers in lobotomy corp
Eileen is the closest, I think.

Yinlock
Oct 21, 2008



Acerbatus posted:

We know from LC that they deployed at least two claws for that, and presumably the ordeal Fixers are based on something real.

I think if they didnt have a legitimate army, Diaz would have overthrown them with the Udjat by now.

I think they do have a significant force but not THAT significant, which is why all the gun regulations and such are in place. Quality over quantity, they're spread thin but the status quo they set up does most of the work anyway. (e: also the head itself is apparently unfathomably powerful, but also seems lazy as hell so)

The Claws just strike me as a preemptive strike kind of soldier rather than an actual army unit. They show up without warning, remove The Problem, then leave.

e: Their game performance kind of bears this out where they're terrifying death machines but have trouble fighting large groups(or small groups that are closer to their level of strength)

Yinlock fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Sep 22, 2021

Eopia
Feb 15, 2013

Operation complete.


Claws can also just outright be overpowered, such as when Kali killed two of them at once. A lot of the Head's MO seems to be sending in arbiters and claws at the target's lowest point when they're unable to put up a strong resistance, and even then that doesn't always work out for them.

Qrr
Aug 14, 2015




Eopia posted:

Claws can also just outright be overpowered, such as when Kali killed two of them at once. A lot of the Head's MO seems to be sending in arbiters and claws at the target's lowest point when they're unable to put up a strong resistance, and even then that doesn't always work out for them.

Kind of suggests that the Eye is actually the most important part of the organization - they have to know who is breaking the rules and when they're weakest, because their entire setup depends on everyone thinking they're invincible and violating their rules is guaranteed to end badly.

WarpedLichen
Aug 14, 2008


Eopia posted:

Claws can also just outright be overpowered, such as when Kali killed two of them at once. A lot of the Head's MO seems to be sending in arbiters and claws at the target's lowest point when they're unable to put up a strong resistance, and even then that doesn't always work out for them.

The Lob Corp LP was a long time ago and I don't remember this at all. I always thought it was just Garion by herself.

Found the post, guess Claws kinda leveled up in this game.

WarpedLichen fucked around with this message at 04:46 on Sep 23, 2021

GilliamYaeger
Jan 10, 2012

Call Gespenst!


WarpedLichen posted:

The Lob Corp LP was a long time ago and I don't remember this at all. I always thought it was just Garion by herself.

Found the post, guess Claws kinda leveled up in this game.
It's a different Claw, and going by his passives and the unique animation he gets when you use Greater Split Vertical on him he came prepared with the full expectation of facing down the Red Mist. Garion's downfall was that she didn't do the research - she didn't realise how useful EGO was or how strong Kali was, which ultimately got her and two Claws killed. These guys came in knowing exactly what and who they were about to fight, and the only thing they didn't expect was Binah siding again them instead of coming home.

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"




GilliamYaeger posted:

It's a different Claw, and going by his passives and the unique animation he gets when you use Greater Split Vertical on him he came prepared with the full expectation of facing down the Red Mist. Garion's downfall was that she didn't do the research - she didn't realise how useful EGO was or how strong Kali was, which ultimately got her and two Claws killed. These guys came in knowing exactly what and who they were about to fight, and the only thing they didn't expect was Binah siding again them instead of coming home.

It's possible that the Head just straight up didn't have as much info on the Secret, Underground, Outskirts Lobotomy Corporation Initial Laboratory. They only struck after someone did a whistle-blowing as it was and potentially didn't think it would be nearly as threatening as it ended up being.

Garion seems to have underestimated Kali, but not by much seeing as Kali died doing what she did.

ZeroCount
Aug 12, 2013




Lord_Magmar posted:

Garion seems to have underestimated Kali, but not by much seeing as Kali died doing what she did.

Yeah, Garion won. She didn't expect to have such a close fight and to lose her two Claws but even after that underestimation she still won. She only died because she, like every Arbiter apparently, cannot shut the gently caress up.

Eopia
Feb 15, 2013

Operation complete.


It's worth noting that even in Ruina It's entirely possible to be winning that final fight, it's rough especially with how weak Roland is, but that's not a fight they were guaranteed to win even with attacking the library at its weakest if you play well. Also I'm pretty sure Gebura is still notably weaker than Kali by the end of Ruina, especially without the Library strengthening her, on top of the fight ending before Gebura can actually use her EGO. The Head isn't nearly as invincible as it wants people to believe.

Eopia fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Sep 23, 2021

GilliamYaeger
Jan 10, 2012

Call Gespenst!


Eopia posted:

It's worth noting that even in Ruina It's entirely possible to be winning that final fight, it's rough especially with how weak Roland is, but that's not a fight they were guaranteed to win even with attacking the library at its weakest if you play well. Also I'm pretty sure Gebura is still notably weaker than Kali by the end of Ruina, especially without the Library strengthening her, on top of the fight ending before Gebura can actually use her EGO. The Head isn't nearly as invincible as it wants people to believe.
With that context, it really makes them eventually managing to fix the Adam ending in Lobotomy Corp all that much more impressive. I wonder if we'll eventually get a game from their point of view?

Theantero
Nov 6, 2011

...they shall march out of my laboratory and sweep away every adversary, every creed, every nation, until the very planet is in the loving grip of the Pax Bisonica. And then peace will reign, and the world, and all humanity, shall bow to me in humble gratitude...

GilliamYaeger posted:

With that context, it really makes them eventually managing to fix the Adam ending in Lobotomy Corp all that much more impressive. I wonder if we'll eventually get a game from their point of view?

As I recall, the fourth game (the one after Limbus) is supposed to be some form of City Manager in the newly vacated Nest L and the district it's in, which makes me suspect the Head will at least be far more prevalent in that one than in the other titles.

Acerbatus
Jun 26, 2020

FORUMS
TERRORIST


Eopia posted:

It's worth noting that even in Ruina It's entirely possible to be winning that final fight, it's rough especially with how weak Roland is, but that's not a fight they were guaranteed to win even with attacking the library at its weakest if you play well. Also I'm pretty sure Gebura is still notably weaker than Kali by the end of Ruina, especially without the Library strengthening her, on top of the fight ending before Gebura can actually use her EGO. The Head isn't nearly as invincible as it wants people to believe.

I think the lack of passives was to indicate they were kinda halfassing it, to see how strong the Library crew was.

I don't think the Head is invincible but there's no reason to think they're pushovers.

Arcvasti
Jun 12, 2019

Never trust a bird.

GilliamYaeger posted:

With that context, it really makes them eventually managing to fix the Adam ending in Lobotomy Corp all that much more impressive.

I figure their way of dealing with that would just be to send District L into the Outskirts, and then maybe send out strike forces to clean up the few Abnormalities that weren't caught in the teleport. They might not even need to do that though, the Associations and Wings would probably do that themselves.

Yinlock
Oct 21, 2008



Acerbatus posted:

I think the lack of passives was to indicate they were kinda halfassing it, to see how strong the Library crew was.

I don't think the Head is invincible but there's no reason to think they're pushovers.

I dunjno, W serum doesn't strike me as "holding back" in any way. Claws in general are way more "sudden hyperviolence" than testing the waters.

There's no indication they're pushovers, their pages are kinda busted and they had Gebura and Roland dead-to-rights. But they didn't have a guaranteed win and their chances would only get lower the longer they let Angela figure out how the library works now.

Also I think the lack of passives is just the library being mostly offline and not letting you see them.

Yinlock fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Sep 24, 2021

Razakai
Sep 15, 2007

People are afraid
To merge on the freeway
Disappear here


SotC spoilers:

I thought prior stuff was tricky, but I feel like SotC's 2nd tier fights are an absolute brick wall. I've gone up against Index Proxies, Red Mist and R Corp and got stomped every time. Index was the closest and I might have eked out a win except for poor luck with the ego card I wanted not appearing until level 5, but even then it would have been close. Any suggestions?

SITB
Nov 3, 2012


Razakai posted:

SotC spoilers:

I thought prior stuff was tricky, but I feel like SotC's 2nd tier fights are an absolute brick wall. I've gone up against Index Proxies, Red Mist and R Corp and got stomped every time. Index was the closest and I might have eked out a win except for poor luck with the ego card I wanted not appearing until level 5, but even then it would have been close. Any suggestions?

Unlike every other boss The Red Mist/Kali doesn't have shimmering, so she can be bricked if she runs out of light. All her bread and butter cards basically reduce their cost by dealing a minimum amount of damage so if you block her enough she would be stuck using only one 2 cost page per turn. Ideally you stall the fight until she reaches emotion level 5 and then beat her to half HP; but you can replicate it by just trying to survive as until she reaches emotion level 5 with one floor and finish her off with the second floor after she kills the first one.

SITB fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Sep 24, 2021

Yinlock
Oct 21, 2008



Razakai posted:

SotC spoilers:

I thought prior stuff was tricky, but I feel like SotC's 2nd tier fights are an absolute brick wall. I've gone up against Index Proxies, Red Mist and R Corp and got stomped every time. Index was the closest and I might have eked out a win except for poor luck with the ego card I wanted not appearing until level 5, but even then it would have been close. Any suggestions?

If you got any kills from those lost fights you can burn the books to get some great pages, Liu in particular is very good(but requires fighting crying children again if you lose, and ughhhhhh) and so is Proxies. R-corp's are less useful without R-corp keypages but even the generic R-corp keypages aren't half bad.

If you're consistently losing though it sounds like your decks or passives need retooling. Ability-wise Mind Hauler and Fervor can make a massive difference. If you haven't grabbed Bamboo-hatted Kim(2 urban nightmare books) from general-receptions yet do that too, his slash dice are resisted by a lot of enemies but his ridiculous boosts mean he'll win almost any clash with them.

Also, don't forget that mass attacks will eat enemy pages if they hit. Having 2-3 enemies just unable to use one of their dice for a turn is a massive power swing in your favor.

e: For Red Mist don't forget that Binah has finally gotten off her rear end and decided to fight. Pillar straight-up neutralizes Greater Slash: Vertical(nothing's going to stop Horizontal though, rip) and the Fairy debuff will do a poo poo-ton of damage if you can land it consistently. Chain is also great to tell a speed dice to go gently caress itself. Just be very careful with her light, if she starts running too low it's very hard for her to get it back since her only light restore costs 1.

Her floor won't be able to take down Mist alone but she will definitely do a shitload of damage before going down.

Yinlock fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Sep 24, 2021

Razakai
Sep 15, 2007

People are afraid
To merge on the freeway
Disappear here



Thanks for the tips. I think I just had a bad initial encounter with each of them, as on my 2nd try I managed to beat Index - Grinder Mk2 is insane with Kim, it pretty much wiped out the final stage on it's own, followed by my blunt build hitting the main Index guy with a Solemn Lament. Running 2 of the Index pages with Fervor/Grace, a singleton Allen pierce, Emma/Puppet blunt and a singleton Kim slash setup. Will farm the Thumb a bit to see if I can nab some of the pages there and then farm Index a bit more for Gloria's keypage and the uniques.

GilliamYaeger
Jan 10, 2012

Call Gespenst!


Razakai posted:

SotC spoilers:

I thought prior stuff was tricky, but I feel like SotC's 2nd tier fights are an absolute brick wall. I've gone up against Index Proxies, Red Mist and R Corp and got stomped every time. Index was the closest and I might have eked out a win except for poor luck with the ego card I wanted not appearing until level 5, but even then it would have been close. Any suggestions?
If you're really having trouble, set up a firing squad floor. Any non-Boris Thumb page, all three of the Full Stop passives that give you power on the first turn of a fight, and any 1/2 cost three-hit ranged page. This should be able to instantly kill most of a given wave and leave the survivors staggered or do about 300 damage to a boss in a single round...then be completely useless afterwards. But you'll have won most fights by the time the first turn is over. Just getting the big boss lady down to half health guarantees a win with a firing squad floor in your pocket.

Razakai
Sep 15, 2007

People are afraid
To merge on the freeway
Disappear here


And said boss went down without even needing to switch floors. I guess the new set of cards is working well!

Reiterpallasch
Nov 3, 2010



Fun Shoe

Yinlock posted:

Her floor won't be able to take down Mist alone but she will definitely do a shitload of damage before going down.

If you set it up for defense and completely brick the boss' engine, she will absolutely win the fight without taking much, if any damage.

Yinlock
Oct 21, 2008



Reiterpallasch posted:

If you set it up for defense and completely brick the boss' engine, she will absolutely win the fight without taking much, if any damage.

This also works. I'm just going by my experience as someone who ignored defense dice entirely until Hokma's floor forced me to learn how to use them effectively :v:

Yinlock
Oct 21, 2008



Razakai posted:


Thanks for the tips. I think I just had a bad initial encounter with each of them, as on my 2nd try I managed to beat Index - Grinder Mk2 is insane with Kim, it pretty much wiped out the final stage on it's own, followed by my blunt build hitting the main Index guy with a Solemn Lament. Running 2 of the Index pages with Fervor/Grace, a singleton Allen pierce, Emma/Puppet blunt and a singleton Kim slash setup. Will farm the Thumb a bit to see if I can nab some of the pages there and then farm Index a bit more for Gloria's keypage and the uniques.


One small warning: basically everything resists Blunt damage in some way from this point on. Pierce hits the most things consistently and Slash still has a bunch of uses(it gets resisted some but has some insanely good pages and easy boosts to make up for it), but Blunt has a very bad time in the endgame for the most part.

e: It still has a couple uses though, and at the very least Yesod can still have fun with it.

Yinlock fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Sep 25, 2021

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Arcvasti
Jun 12, 2019

Never trust a bird.

Razakai posted:


Thanks for the tips. I think I just had a bad initial encounter with each of them, as on my 2nd try I managed to beat Index - Grinder Mk2 is insane with Kim, it pretty much wiped out the final stage on it's own, followed by my blunt build hitting the main Index guy with a Solemn Lament. Running 2 of the Index pages with Fervor/Grace, a singleton Allen pierce, Emma/Puppet blunt and a singleton Kim slash setup. Will farm the Thumb a bit to see if I can nab some of the pages there and then farm Index a bit more for Gloria's keypage and the uniques.


Oh something that might not be obvious is that the pages from SotC tier 2 unlock three new general receptions, the very last in the game. Might want to check those out too.

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