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TheDiceMustRoll
Jul 23, 2018


forkboy84 posted:

Just an FYI, Owen vs Goldust in the IC tournament match was on the 8th September episode.

ah. for some reason I missed the fact that was a tournament match

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DJExile
Jun 27, 2007



Lid posted:

i always forget The Truth Commission happened

seriously, they must have been short-lived because I never remember them at all

Nipponophile
Apr 8, 2009

Man of the Rising Sun


Maybe it's time to revisit the concept. I'm picturing "the R-Truth Commission", a gang of jobbers who protect R-Truth from the constant stream of challengers to his 24/7 belt.

Lurks With Wolves
Jan 14, 2013

At least I don't dance with them, right?


Reminder that the Truth Commission isn't just a militia, it's a South African militia. Because if you're going to visit South Africa on tour, why not make a new faction named after the organization formed to determine the human rights violations caused by apartheid?

Erainor
Dec 30, 2017

THUNDERDOME LOSER

TheDiceMustRoll posted:

Alrighty, it's time for a simple episode of Monday Night Raw! Last time Stone Cold Steve austin went insane attacking people. So get that guinness and chill your beef jerky in the fridge for eight hours to ensure maximum chewing time!


Great Episode, gently caress this Brian Pillman raping Goldust's wife angle, it's terrible.


Did that even make the NY64 list of horrible things WWE has done? Also, Lawler was always bad at commentary!

IceAgeComing
Jan 29, 2013

pretty fucking embarrassing to watch

Lurks With Wolves posted:

Reminder that the Truth Commission isn't just a militia, it's a South African militia. Because if you're going to visit South Africa on tour, why not make a new faction named after the organization formed to determine the human rights violations caused by apartheid?

A heel faction as well

which makes sense; WWE are against truth and reconciliation

Seams
Feb 3, 2005


they were named after the truth and reconciliation commission, but they were an all-white south african militia, but they were also heels.

basically somebody just did an altavista search for 'south african current events' and mashed a bunch of stuff together.

The Cameo
Jan 20, 2005

Higher, baby
Get higher, baby
Get higher, baby
And don't ever come down



Seams posted:

they were named after the truth and reconciliation commission, but they were an all-white south african militia, but they were also heels.

basically somebody just did an altavista search for 'south african current events' and mashed a bunch of stuff together.

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


Sunny was a manager for a good while prior to this, not just in the WWE but also in Smoky Mountain and ECW. Somewhat unusually for the era, she was actually a manager more than the valet role women used to (and often still are) relegated to, as she'd cut promos for her charges just like Heenan or Cornette. I think by this point they felt she was too big a star on her own to do anything but take away from anyone they gave her to.

KungFu Grip
Jun 18, 2008



Fun fact about the big dude in the center of the Truth Commission is that he's an actor now that plays the big beefy bad guy roll in a lot of movies. His biggest role was probably the one Russian pilot in Pacific Rim.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


He also had a great little featured part in the first Robert Downey Jr Sherlock Holmes film, as a very soft-spoken and polite henchman who gets into a couple of fistfights with Holmes and Watson.

spongeh
Mar 22, 2009

BREADAGRAM OF PROTECTION


Just chiming in support of a good thread and am enjoying the first look with 20 years of perspective of what's a pretty rotten time culturally. I actually fell out of wrestling at this time or maybe a year or so before that, and my first memory of getting back into it was Big Show & Kane vs Spirit Squad in like 2005.

Dango Bango
Jul 26, 2007

"Yup, it looks like his head went so far up his own butt-hole that it exploded right back out his pee-hole and he died in a cataclysmic shower of his own blood and poop and pee."
- Too Much Mustard


I think I started right around where you did to go back and rewatch the Attitude Era, both Raw and WCW. I ran out of steam around mid-1998 I think? But my God there is some utter trash on those old Raws.

Benne
Sep 2, 2011

STOP DOING HEROIN

You brought up some interesting points about Austin that I think is worth expanding on:

quote:

- To the guy in the thread talking about the analysis of Stone Cold Steve Austin being an everyman, I don't know. That's a strange interpretation, he says "Steve Austin does what he wants when he wants". If we're going to go with highbrow analysis, I would say he's a power fantasy and thats about it. "Wouldnt it be cool if I BEAT THE poo poo OUT OF EVERYONE AND GOT AWAY WITH IT ALL THE TIME? HEH HEH" kind of attitude, not some kind of special commentary on worker-boss power structures. I can see why there was that guy whining at austin for wearing a mask a few weeks ago - on screen austin would probably beat up Dr. Fauci or something, I dunno. hard to say.

Austin's character growth was actually way slower and more complex than people might think -- especially if you're new to wrestling and your only image of Stone Cold is the bald redneck who drank beer and beat up his boss. For most of 96 through early 97, Austin worked heel as a violent psychopath tormenting Bret Hart. In fact, his famous "Austin 3:16" promo after winning King of the Ring 96 was actually supposed to be a heel moment, burying Jake Roberts for being a phony Christian and promising to destroy the rest of the roster.

But fans started getting behind this crazy, charismatic badass who walked the talk, and in a rare moment of WWE properly reading the room, they leaned into it as he got more cheers. This culminated in the Bret/Austin Submission Match at Mania 97, with the legendary finish where a bloody, valiant Austin passed out in the Sharpshooter without ever submitting, and is often credited as the best double turn of all time. So Austin was now a face, but not really a "good guy" -- he still kept up much of his violent crazy traits while feuding with the Hart Foundation throughout the summer (this is why he went full heel in Canadian Stampede, and why it worked so well with that crowd as you just saw).

So that's about where you're at with your rewatch, where Austin is a cool tweener but not quite the face of the company yet. That would come in 98, along with the Vince feud that cemented his "rebellious everyman" image. I won't say more out of spoiler courtesy -- just enjoy the ride, because it's one of the best slow burns WWE has ever done.

Benne fucked around with this message at 07:30 on Jul 8, 2020

flashy_mcflash
Feb 7, 2011



Ultra Carp

I really loved that subtle stuff they were doing because it was so complex and layered. Here was Bret, unwittingly turned heel against his will (in story) and literally not understanding why people were cheering this psycho over him. Adding the Canadian patriotism aspect to it was masterful storytelling.

LionYeti
Oct 11, 2008




Grimey Drawer

Its really interesting, WCW and WWF had inverse problems during this time. The WWF had a kinda poo poo midcard but amazing main events while WCW had awesome stuff with the luchadors and folks like Malenko, Jericho and *Name Redacted* in the midcard and opening but galomphing messes from Hogan and friends in the main events. The thing that you see over time is that the midcard has stuff to do in WWF which is in my opinion what finally turned things around.

Dacap
Jul 8, 2008

ME BOSS
YOU NOT




Yeah, throwing on a random Raw from the attitude era and youíll see low-mid card guys like Al Snow or Godfather getting pops that WWE would kill for in a main event today.

LionYeti
Oct 11, 2008




Grimey Drawer

Which is the literal only thing Vince Russo has ever ever been right about. Everyone should have a character and every match a reason.

Lid
Feb 18, 2005

Cabana's legal advice?
I'm bourgeoisie.
I... hit the shitty
firemans carry knee.






No thats not what Russo was right about as evidenced by giving every WCW person something and just iversaturation. What WWF did right, and forgot, and AEW does now is one simple maxim - everyone on the shows was presented and treated as a star regardless of position or role.

WCW killed this by making themselves by design to be uncool and sacrificed their potential stars to upholding the status quo.

WWF fell apart starting with the Reign of Terror where there were stars who always won and thwn everyone else who should reach for the brass ring. And oh look history repeated because no one in WWE is special anymore EXCEPT those whose popularity started in NXT where it is untainted.

Jonny Nox
Apr 25, 2008


I still don't really think '97 is really "Attitude Era"

No DX
Godfather, Mark Henry, D-Lo, Farooq are all still tied up in NOD
Rocky is not there yet (he won't become the promo monster he'll become until summer '98)
No Mr. McMahon
Mankind/Mick Foley is having good matches but has't locked into the comedy charachter everyone is going to fall in love with
No Big Boss Man
No Al Snow

Like all the pieces are there, but not in the right alignment yet.

Wait until Stone Cold is forced to give up his IC Title. The fallout from that puts everything in order.

Also, eventually WWE accidentally gets a real good tag division. That's still 2 years off
Also, please don't look for any kind of women's wrestling. They don't even have a Women's title in '97 (I think)

Finally, Woman was Nancy Benoit's name in WCW and the thread title give me the heebie jeebies any time I see it.

Jonny Nox fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Jul 9, 2020

forkboy84
Jun 13, 2012

I thought the redtext someone dumped on you was in bad taste and a bit much so here's a corgi instead.

LionYeti posted:

Which is the literal only thing Vince Russo has ever ever been right about. Everyone should have a character and every match a reason.

See, I'd argue this is not good because it ties into Russo's thing where he's interested in everything EXCEPT the wrestling. Needing to beat your opponent to get the winners purse, to move the rankings, that's all perfectly valid motivation for a match. And since you mentioned Al Snow, I looked at his 1999. He had, by my count, 6 matches over 10 minutes long on TV & PPV that year out of 65 appearances. All on PPV. I mean if you're being generous I think you can argue there's a nugget of a good idea in there but why be generous to Vince Russo?

Gaz-L
Jan 28, 2009


forkboy84 posted:

See, I'd argue this is not good because it ties into Russo's thing where he's interested in everything EXCEPT the wrestling. Needing to beat your opponent to get the winners purse, to move the rankings, that's all perfectly valid motivation for a match. And since you mentioned Al Snow, I looked at his 1999. He had, by my count, 6 matches over 10 minutes long on TV & PPV that year out of 65 appearances. All on PPV. I mean if you're being generous I think you can argue there's a nugget of a good idea in there but why be generous to Vince Russo?

I'd take it further, and point out that it means you run into the current WWE problem of 'gotta protect everyone' with 50/50 booking and bullshit finishes. If everyone's important and has a story, no-one can be used simply to put over the actual stars.

forkboy84
Jun 13, 2012

I thought the redtext someone dumped on you was in bad taste and a bit much so here's a corgi instead.

Jonny Nox posted:

I still don't really think '97 is really "Attitude Era"

No DX
Godfather, Mark Henry, D-Lo, Farooq are all still tied up in NOD
Rocky is not there yet (he won't become the promo monster he'll become until summer '98)
No Mr. McMahon
Mankind/Mick Foley is having good matches but has't locked into the comedy charachter everyone is going to fall in love with
No Big Boss Man
No Al Snow

Like all the pieces are there, but not in the right alignment yet.

Wait until Stone Cold is forced to give up his IC Title. The fallout from that puts everything in order.

Also, eventually WWE accidentally gets a real good tag division. That's still 2 years off
Also, please don't look for any kind of women's wrestling. They don't even have a Women's title in '97 (I think)

On the flipside though their presentation of women between Sunny & Sable in '96 started getting more raunchy/provocative, & '96 had stuff like Austin's King of the Ring win & promo, Pillman's Got A Gun, & '97 you have Hart Foundation vs the USA & other stuff I don't want to mention in case it spoils stuff. But obviously it's a silly thing to argue about because it's a marketing term but it's a wrestling forum on the internet so silly things are what we do. But yeah, I think there's a clear difference by the 1997 to the post-Hogan stuff that we tend to refer to as the New Generation.

Seams
Feb 3, 2005


spoilers

Seams fucked around with this message at 12:34 on Jul 9, 2020

flashy_mcflash
Feb 7, 2011



Ultra Carp

I think it begins either with the Pillman gun angle or the Austin double turn. Debateable, but there's no argument that it could be any later than Dec 15, 1997. They were doing 'shades of grey' before that but it was actually embraced/acknowledged as a thing starting with this promo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HznErMk97B4

hunnert car pileup
Oct 28, 2007

the first world was a mistake



e

hunnert car pileup fucked around with this message at 07:45 on Jul 9, 2020

Jonny Nox
Apr 25, 2008


spoilers

Jonny Nox fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Jul 9, 2020

karmicknight
Aug 21, 2011



This is a good thread and I am going to do my part by not trying to explain any context except that those Jerry Lawler "jokes" you highlighted are actually way more horrifying than on the surface.


Wasn't "blindly adding current news items" Bruce Prichard's job at the time?

dsriggs
May 28, 2012

MONEY FALLS...

...FROM THE SKY...

...WHENEVER HE POSTS!


Some people in here donít know what spoilers mean, apparently

Seams
Feb 3, 2005


dsriggs posted:

Some people in here donít know what spoilers mean, apparently

oops my bad i forgot what thread i was in

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Thank you to those who edited them out, but I am gonna institute the same rules that Rarity's old 80s WWF thread had: spoilers = probations. Don't do it!

hooman
Oct 11, 2007

This guy seems legit.


Fun Shoe

This is a great thread and I'm very excited to read your RAW impressions.

Hirez
Feb 3, 2003

Weber scored 49 points?



same, watch the next episode already coward, i need a review

Gavok
Oct 10, 2005

Brock! Oh, man, I'm sorry about your...

...tooth?



Jerusalem posted:

Thank you to those who edited them out, but I am gonna institute the same rules that Rarity's old 80s WWF thread had: spoilers = probations. Don't do it!

Matching up the Rarity PPV thread with this thread makes me realize how self-contained the New Generation really was. Rarity stopped at Wrestlemania 8 in 1992 (the end of the Hogan Era) and TheDiceMustRoll started with five years later (the prelude to the Attitude Era). There are top names who hadn't even debuted yet from Rarity's stopping point and they're long gone from TheDiceMustRoll's starting point. Guys like Diesel, Razor Ramon, Lex Luger, Yokozuna and Mabel. Bob Backlund, Sid, Bam Bam Bigelow and Ultimate Warrior had major return runs (well, maybe not Warrior) that are already history by September 1997.

And those are just the names that I can talk about without getting into spoilers.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


I actually stopped watching myself around 90-91 and only started again in late 96, and yeah sometimes when they'd jump back to reference somebody who was a star of that between-time I'd realize I'd completely missed almost an entire generation of wrestlers. Like, I don't think I ever saw (that I remember) a single Tatanka match in his entire initial push/undefeated streak.

Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010



Fun Shoe

Jerusalem posted:

Like, I don't think I ever saw (that I remember) a single Tatanka match in his entire initial push/undefeated streak.

It's OK, nobody else does either.

Dell_Zincht
Nov 5, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 23 days!


Jerusalem posted:

I actually stopped watching myself around 90-91 and only started again in late 96, and yeah sometimes when they'd jump back to reference somebody who was a star of that between-time I'd realize I'd completely missed almost an entire generation of wrestlers. Like, I don't think I ever saw (that I remember) a single Tatanka match in his entire initial push/undefeated streak.

You mean you missed Undertaker dying?

Von Linus
Apr 6, 2006
I complete me.

I watched from about 87 -92, I ended up watching livewire hungover on couches in 1993 on Sunday mornings, and completely tuned out of the new generation. I think I started again in 98 because I saw a particularly attitudinal thing involving mankind that year. I thought it was me growing out of wrestling rather than wrestling actively getting much worse. From an entertainment perspective at least.

Jerusalem
May 20, 2004

Would you be my new best friends?


Dell_Zincht posted:

You mean you missed Undertaker dying?

I believe Undertaker had only really just shown up shortly before I wasn't watching anymore, but I knew enough to remember him being a big deal to my little kid mind. I know I missed his first Wrestlemania, because the last one I saw before my break was Warrior beating Hogan at VI.

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Dell_Zincht
Nov 5, 2003
Probation
Can't post for 23 days!


I'm ashamed to admit that I started watching WWF in 1989 at the tender age of 6, watched all of the New Generation Era, all of the Attitude Era, a lot of the Ruthless Aggression Era and only really took an extended break from it all after the Benoit scandal.

I've watched a lot of really bad wrestling throughout my life

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