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I’m glad I caught up with the history of this thread being moved because for a minute there I was dumbstruck that someone would make a c-spam thread asking people to call their representatives, of all thingsnight danger posted:what's the average family income of foreign students in the US? because I bet it's not a class anyone would shed tears for if they were citizens. lol at using NYU as representative of average international students, or average anything. I’d be shocked if most int’l students didn’t go to public institutions
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Jul 8, 2020 17:16
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night danger posted:what's the average family income of foreign students in the US? because I bet it's not a class anyone would shed tears for if they were citizens. who gives a gently caress. it's an explicitly white supremacist policy that you should oppose on that basis alone. if you think this kind of policy won't be extended to DACA students next you aren't paying attention.
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Jul 8, 2020 17:21
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QUEER FRASIER posted:lol at using NYU as representative of average international students, or average anything. I’d be shocked if most int’l students didn’t go to public institutions If you have stats that show otherwise then I'd be happy to change my opinion. Famethrowa posted:who gives a gently caress. it's an explicitly white supremacist policy that you should oppose on that basis alone.
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Jul 8, 2020 17:24
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*talking to international colleagues at my public university who have to prostitute themselves to make rent because their wage is so low and their visa poo poo doesn’t let them work another formal job outside the university* Well I guess this is the price you pay for being a part of the global elite
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Jul 8, 2020 17:26
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night danger posted:Nah. No war but class war, baby. "surely this white supremacist policy won't be weaponized next against poor communities of color trying to scrape together a living no sirree"
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Jul 8, 2020 17:29
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It might very well be, and it'll be worth opposing that policy when it happens. Until then you're being suckered into class collaboration.
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Jul 8, 2020 17:32
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night danger posted:It might very well be, and it'll be worth opposing that policy when it happens. Until then you're being suckered into class collaboration. 
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Jul 8, 2020 17:32
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It looks like international undergraduate students are getting most of the attention so far, but what can we expect in terms of effects on graduate students? Many don't take any courses at all after their first year or two. There are a lot fewer of them in absolute terms so it might be easier for universities to develop workarounds. They're also necessary to universities in different ways -- more so for their labor than their tuition money, at least at the doctoral level (plenty of magisterial programs work like ATMs too, if on a smaller scale than undergrad).
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Jul 8, 2020 17:33
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"First they came for the 1%, and I spoke out because I was Left but woke."
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Jul 8, 2020 17:33
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night danger posted:"First they came for the 1%, and I spoke out because I was Left but woke." so...nazbol or what?
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Jul 8, 2020 17:35
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gloom posted:It looks like international undergraduate students are getting most of the attention so far, but what can we expect in terms of effects on graduate students? Many don't take any courses at all after their first year or two. There are a lot fewer of them in absolute terms so it might be easier for universities to develop workarounds. They're also necessary to universities in different ways -- more so for their labor than their tuition money, at least at the doctoral level (plenty of magisterial programs work like ATMs too, if on a smaller scale than undergrad). Most grad students are at least nominally enrolled in a class, even if it's just "thesis research", and those classes are usually considered in-person. So grad students will likely be safe from deportation. They won't be safe from being forced into teaching or TAing classes in person though. Famethrowa posted:who gives a gently caress. it's an explicitly white supremacist policy that you should oppose on that basis alone. if you think this kind of policy won't be extended to DACA students next you aren't paying attention. don't forget that it isn't just about race, it's also about the death cult forcing universities to open up and become Covid vectors if they don't want their high-tuition international student populations to drop out
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Jul 8, 2020 17:36
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Famethrowa posted:so...nazbol or what? lol 
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Jul 8, 2020 17:36
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night danger posted:"First they came for the 1%, and I spoke out because I was Left but woke." your supposed class analysis of this situation sucks gloom posted:It looks like international undergraduate students are getting most of the attention so far, but what can we expect in terms of effects on graduate students? Many don't take any courses at all after their first year or two. There are a lot fewer of them in absolute terms so it might be easier for universities to develop workarounds. They're also necessary to universities in different ways -- more so for their labor than their tuition money, at least at the doctoral level (plenty of magisterial programs work like ATMs too, if on a smaller scale than undergrad). I guess it will depend on how the policy is enforced, if at all. If it’s done individually, then most grad students are enrolled in dissertation research credit hours that are not officially online so they could be off the hook. If it’s more of an institutional mandate, aka open up x% of your classes or your int’l grad students are gone, then a lot of grad students would be hosed regardless frankly I don’t expect the whole thing to survive a court challenge but yeah this would absolutely wreck an entire generation of grad students’ careers
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Jul 8, 2020 17:46
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night danger posted:Maybe true, but even at a public institution, nobody who can afford international student tuition & associated costs is, again, anyone we'd be shedding tears for if they were citizens. nope. i work at a community college with a bunch of international students and have to deal directly with their i-20s. i used to kinda buy into this poo poo, but it really isn’t as true as you’re trying to make it out to be
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Jul 8, 2020 18:15
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night danger posted:It might very well be, and it'll be worth opposing that policy when it happens. Until then you're being suckered into class collaboration. have you ever worked with international students in academia or in any capacity at all lol
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Jul 8, 2020 18:31
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just because they can pay the tuition doesn't mean they can actually afford the tuition the US as a nation is practically built on suckering people into thinking they'll have upward mobility if they spend enough money and wait long enough, with plenty of lending agents standing by to fund those levels of spending
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Jul 8, 2020 18:37
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QUEER FRASIER posted:your supposed class analysis of this situation sucks
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Jul 8, 2020 18:54
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Main Paineframe posted:just because they can pay the tuition doesn't mean they can actually afford the tuition No argument there but that's not exactly an argument against this policy. I've got no problem recognizing this as a dumb policy motivated by xenophobia, and that it should be opposed on the basis that it's a cynical attempt to deny the reality of the current situation, but I'm browsing through the tuition fees on https://www.internationalstudent.com/ and it's not painting a picture of international students as the downtrodden of the world. I've been through post-secondary as a domestic student in Canada, which is much less expensive than the States, so I know how much it cost to pay room & board & tuition in the best of circumstances. Even this article from Toronto, which is supposed to counter the narrative that international students are well-off, doesn't provide any context about the students' lives in their home countries. It does, however, ask me to feel bad for a student who is having a typical-sounding university experience: https://theeyeopener.com/2019/09/dispelling-the-rich-international-student-myths/ Show me the stats on international student family wealth and I'll happily concede if I'm wrong. unlimited shrimp has issued a correction as of 19:18 on Jul 8, 2020 |
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Jul 8, 2020 19:16
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Imagine, some time in the past 4 years, coming up to one of your biggest life decisions you will make in your life, and deciding to do your undergrad in Trump's America
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Jul 8, 2020 19:34
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World War Mammories posted:have you ever worked with international students in academia or in any capacity at all lol I went to a pretty cheap public university. The house I lived in for my last 3 years was entirely Chinese exchange students aside from myself. None of them were remotely close to being 1%ers.
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Jul 8, 2020 20:02
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night danger posted:I've got no problem recognizing this as a dumb policy motivated by xenophobia, and that it should be opposed on the basis that it's a cynical attempt to deny the reality of the current situation, but I'm browsing through the tuition fees on https://www.internationalstudent.com/ and it's not painting a picture of international students as the downtrodden of the world. I've been through post-secondary as a domestic student in Canada, which is much less expensive than the States, so I know how much it cost to pay room & board & tuition in the best of circumstances. how much do you think that is? w/r/t to international students and "family wealth", a lot of times what you're actually talking about is a wide network of poor relatives pooling money to send one or two students to school, oftentimes with help from more extended family and community organizations in the us sometimes, they get sketchy rear end sponsors, who do all kind of manipulative, abusive poo poo with the power that sponsorship brings
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Jul 8, 2020 20:29
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 "iconic"
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Jul 9, 2020 10:01
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hey welcome to CSPAM new people! https://twitter.com/leftistmeme/status/1280679326678016001?s=20 calling my representative + signing petition now! 
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Jul 9, 2020 10:20
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Zerilan posted:I went to a pretty cheap public university. The house I lived in for my last 3 years was entirely Chinese exchange students aside from myself. None of them were remotely close to being 1%ers. I’ve worked at or attended 4 public universities now, I’ve probably known a few hundred international students. the idea that these people are all super rich is patently stupid. they’re just regular people
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Jul 9, 2020 13:09
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im pretty sure the need for international students to prove the ability to finance their studies in order to obtain a visa in either the us or canada isn't a perverse incentive for some of them to inflate their financial situation btw did you know that there are far far more billionaires in china than america? did you guys know that chinese students have been buying luxury properties around canada and crashing exotic sports cars all around canadian cities that have become de facto chinese colonies so many honest hardworking canadians who just want to own a place of their own have been forever priced out by these international students running around buying up houses. some of them dont even live in those houses, they r just investment properties end chinese students colonization. workers of the world unite! time to dismantle china and force that rapacious nation to repatriate their ill gotten wealth among the working poor around the globe most of that wealth came from stolen intellectual property of brilliant white workers so the lions share should go to them first no war but class war breh (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 9, 2020 13:45
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vyelkin posted:Most grad students are at least nominally enrolled in a class, even if it's just "thesis research", and those classes are usually considered in-person. So grad students will likely be safe from deportation. They won't be safe from being forced into teaching or TAing classes in person though. The communications from admin at my school so far is fairly pessimistic, saying research course credits probably won't be enough in part because there's some relatively large credit requirement to count as being in person. Like you need a full course load in person, not just this "here's a 1 credit in person class, now you're safe." That may be how they're interpreting the order and not actually how it would play out, though.
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Jul 9, 2020 14:39
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The Persian Funk posted:Have you seen the average international student? They couldn't conquer a 5 dollar Hot-N-Ready, let alone the most powerful military, and the best-armed populace, in the history of civilization. cspam gets results
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Jul 9, 2020 14:43
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sourdough posted:The communications from admin at my school so far is fairly pessimistic, saying research course credits probably won't be enough in part because there's some relatively large credit requirement to count as being in person. Like you need a full course load in person, not just this "here's a 1 credit in person class, now you're safe." That may be how they're interpreting the order and not actually how it would play out, though. Ordinarily the rule is that international students can only take one online class and everything else has to be in person. Back in the spring, ICE announced they were suspending that rule when everyone went 100% online because of Covid, and that even a 100% online schedule wouldn't lead to deportation. With the new rule, they've partially rescinded the Spring 2020 exemptions, but haven't gone all the way back to normal. Here's the actual text: quote:1. Nonimmigrant F-1 and M-1 students attending schools operating entirely online may not take a full online course load and remain in the United States. The U.S. Department of State will not issue visas to students enrolled in schools and/or programs that are fully online for the fall semester nor will U.S. Customs and Border Protection permit these students to enter the United States. Active students currently in the United States enrolled in such programs must depart the country or take other measures, such as transferring to a school with in-person instruction to remain in lawful status. If not, they may face immigration consequences including, but not limited to, the initiation of removal proceedings. (1) forces schools not to go fully online because F-1 students will get deported (2) is irrelevant because basically no schools are fully in-person, but it goes back to the regular norm of international students only being allowed one online class (3) is the relevant one if your school is offering any in-person classes, and they make it clear that there is still some leeway compared to the strict regular rule. If your school is hybrid online/in-person, the readings I've seen so far of this clause say that international students are allowed to take more than one class online (i.e., a violation of the typical rule) but aren't allowed a fully online schedule--so, one in-person class in an otherwise fully online schedule should be sufficient to avoid deportation. So ordinarily, doing 1 in-person class and 4 online classes would get you deported. But ICE's new rule seems to say that as long as you aren't 100% online, you're safe, and you could have that schedule this term without penalty. It sounds to me like your school may be interpreting the ICE ruling according to the usual rule only allowing one online course, rather than the new exemption for hybrid instruction in section (3) that says students can safely violate the usual rule as long as they aren't going fully online.
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Jul 9, 2020 14:49
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vyelkin posted:Ordinarily the rule is that international students can only take one online class and everything else has to be in person. Back in the spring, ICE announced they were suspending that rule when everyone went 100% online because of Covid, and that even a 100% online schedule wouldn't lead to deportation. With the new rule, they've partially rescinded the Spring 2020 exemptions, but haven't gone all the way back to normal. Thanks, that does seem pretty clearly stating that a single in person course would suffice. I'm hopeful that even if it isn't suspended in court, basically every university can and will go this route. So far, we've been strictly locked down and have had limited exemptions for researchers to get back on campus (slowly opening up more, though), pretty well prioritizing stopping the spread over everything. But given those options, a single (very real) in person class for F-1 students is obviously the right choice.
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Jul 9, 2020 15:19
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Who the gently caress is Kramden
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Jul 9, 2020 15:53
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Milo and POTUS posted:Who the gently caress is Kramden someone who loves using hate speech, judging by the rapsheet
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Jul 9, 2020 18:11
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Drunkboxer posted:I’ve worked at or attended 4 public universities now, I’ve probably known a few hundred international students. the idea that these people are all super rich is patently stupid. they’re just regular people Yeah, we were only able to even eat decently because we made large communal meals and our landlord was a cool dude who brought over food fairly frequently.
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Jul 9, 2020 18:21
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night danger posted:"First they came for the 1%, and I spoke out because I was Left but woke." I don't know about undergrads, but I can tell you that the international grad students in my lab aren't rich. They study flesh-eating insects. Do you think it's a good idea for the US to lose people like this?
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Jul 9, 2020 18:41
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Troutful posted:I don't know about undergrads, but I can tell you that the international grad students in my lab aren't rich. They study flesh-eating insects. Do you think it's a good idea for the US to lose people like this? It depends on what they're studying about them. Are they A) Finding ways to eradicate them or B) Splicing their genes with humans to develop super soldier killing machines with no conscience.
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Jul 12, 2020 17:13
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So it looks like the policy was cancelled!quote:President Donald Trump's administration has rescinded a rule that threatened to bar hundreds of thousands of international students from studying in the United States after facing fierce opposition, including legal challenges from Massachusetts universities and the state's attorney general. https://www.wcvb.com/article/trump-...4Iw_ysnFZAudF0o
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Jul 14, 2020 20:48
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Thats hosed up. Glad it got cancelled though.
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Aug 28, 2020 22:45
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https://twitter.com/brooklynmarie/status/1305553553625243648 https://projectsouth.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/OIG-ICDC-Complaint-1.pdf  
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Sep 14, 2020 22:40
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So it's not as bad as "get deported if you take online classes" but the Trump admin are still trying to find ways to make the system more hostile for international students: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2020/09/25/trump-administration-proposes-major-overhaul-student-visa-rules Under the new rules you would no longer be allowed to just stay in the US as long as you're in good academic standing, instead you have to get re-approved by DHS every 2 or 4 years, depending how much the US hates your country. Also some smaller things like you have less time to leave the US after you graduate. Basically this is a way to make sure more international students miss deadlines due to the complexity of the system and get deported instead of finishing their degrees.
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Sep 30, 2020 02:29
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