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Morbi
Aug 7, 2013

CONTRABAND

I don't know if it's just because I'm a freak who constantly jumps into spatial puzzle games and is waiting on bated breath for HAL to make another Picross 3D game, but seeing people talking about this game's puzzle system like it's incomprehensible is pretty surreal. This game is pretty reserved with its harder layouts until the second half, and even then, it gives you a huge number of handicap options if you need it to the point of letting you just skip it, if you want.
If anything, I wish it had gone even harder with it in places. I remember absolutely losing my mind when I saw what the Origami Boo gimmick was, and the game never really takes the concept up another step like that again.

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Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




So It Goes posted:

Someone is going to point out that the battles in jrpgs don’t change either, but what is changing is your party layouts and you get new skills etc. that cause the play of the battle to be different. The battles often become a toolbox to mess around with party and character builds. The result in terms of you deal damage to kill the enemy is the same, but the fact you do different things to reach that result absolutely matters.

having more tools that accomplish the same thing is not depth. a pool can be very, very wide and still only two inches deep

Supersonic Shine
Oct 13, 2012


Haven't played this game, but I'm pleased to see the ordinary pair of scissors are just as dangerous as they should be. The only way they could be even better is if the Earth Vellumental was super effective against them.

Snake Maze
Jul 13, 2016

3.85 Billion years ago
  • Having seen the explosion on the moon, the Devil comes to Venus


Bleck posted:

having more tools that accomplish the same thing is not depth. a pool can be very, very wide and still only two inches deep

Having more tools to play with is fun, even if there's no wrong choices. The badge system in the old games gave the player meaningful customization to do outside of battle and allowed sidequests and exploration to give interesting, unique rewards, while leveling up and getting more BP meant you wouldn't just stick with the same setup all game and were encouraged to try out new thing as you got more points to play with. 99% of the time this is what people are actually complaining about when they whine about xp; if the new games replaced XP with BP at fixed plot points and sidequests but otherwise left the badge system intact I suspect you wouldn't see the same complaints.

OK could have done something similar with its accessories, but they ended up mostly being "The game is a little easier, but not in a way that makes you play differently" and the columns of exclusive accessories never had any meaningful choices.

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




Snake Maze posted:

Having more tools to play with is fun, even if there's no wrong choices.

I'm not disagreeing - I'm only disagreeing with the idea that the system where you can basically just do whatever you want and win and nothing matters has more "depth" because you can make Mario wear Luigi's clothes or whatever

Bleck fucked around with this message at 20:14 on Jul 29, 2020

DC Murderverse
Nov 10, 2016

"Tell that to Zod's snapped neck!"



Tired: "Origami King would be better if it had 64/TTYD's battle system"

Wired: "Origami King would be better if it just embraced being an adventure game and got rid of random battles (but kept boss battles)"

Inspired: "Half of these chapters are ripoffs of inspired by Zelda games, maybe they should have just made it into a Paper Zelda"

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 2010
I am trash mon
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS


Bleck posted:

I'm not disagreeing - I'm only disagreeing with the idea that the system where you can basically just do whatever you want and win and nothing matters has more "depth" because you can make Mario wear Luigi's clothes or whatever

different tools that accomplish the same thing (winning a battle) but more efficiently.

outside of boss battles in origami king it is functionally impossible to die because you have an endless supply of mushrooms and multiple actions per turn, and you can also use coins to solve the puzzles instantly. so you can do anything you want and win and nothing matters. the incentive to actually solve the puzzles is because it is more efficient.

Augus fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Jul 29, 2020

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




Augus posted:

different tools that accomplish the same thing (winning a battle) but more efficiently.

outside of boss battles in origami king it is functionally impossible to die because you have an endless supply of mushrooms and multiple actions per turn, and you can also use coins to solve the puzzles instantly. so you can do anything you want and win and nothing matters. the incentive to actually solve the puzzles is because it is more efficient.

the incentive to solving the puzzle is that I like solving puzzles

I'm sorry that you're bad at puzzles but it doesn't mean this game is bad, sorry

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 2010
I am trash mon
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS


Bleck posted:

the incentive to solving the puzzle is that I like solving puzzles

I'm sorry that you're bad at puzzles but it doesn't mean this game is bad, sorry

the incentive to win a traditional turn-based battle is that I like turn-based battles. just because you suck at them doesn't mean they were bad, sorry.

can you stop being a defensive weirdo about the fact that some people don't like this combat system or do you strongly feel like you need to outdo the people who were too weird about not liking Sticker Star and Color Splash?

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




Augus posted:

can you stop being a defensive weirdo

I mean your complaint here is literally that you are bad at the puzzles

Augus posted:

the timer to clear a puzzle is over a minute long and I regularly run out of time in battles

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 2010
I am trash mon
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS


I guess I'm just too much of a casual to play paper mario, a game for hardcore gamers only

Morbi
Aug 7, 2013

CONTRABAND

This game is pretty low-end on the puzzle difficulty scale outside of the trial-and-error in boss fights, so I... guess you are?

Snake Maze
Jul 13, 2016

3.85 Billion years ago
  • Having seen the explosion on the moon, the Devil comes to Venus


Bleck posted:

I'm not disagreeing - I'm only disagreeing with the idea that the system where you can basically just do whatever you want and win and nothing matters has more "depth" because you can make Mario wear Luigi's clothes or whatever
By most definitions, the battle system in TTYD really did have more depth. There were more ways for you to approach it and interact with it, there was a higher skill ceiling, and there was more customization you could do to influence it outside of battle. You'll probably never lose a fight because you have a bad badge setup, but that's because that's not the kind of challenge the game is aiming for, not that the system was too shallow to support it.

You can say that "depth" actually means combat challenge or something but that's just quibbling about definitions - the part people care about is not the specific adjective they're allowed to describe it with.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



I am not clear on how TTYD has a higher skill ceiling unless you are claiming quickly solving puzzles is not a skill but timing button presses is

Phenotype
Jul 24, 2007

You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance.



Morbi posted:

I don't know if it's just because I'm a freak who constantly jumps into spatial puzzle games

It is exactly because of this.

Look, man, there is a certain percentage of people who just do not find the slidey block puzzling thing fun in the slightest. My brain doesn't seem to get the patterns as easily as other people do, and I can spend the entire timer+ looking at one of the more complicated ones and never figure out a solution. And even when I do, it doesn't feel satisfying to solve, I don't feel like I'm getting better at seeing the pattern, and I'm just vaguely relieved the battle will be over in one turn instead of two or three. I get that some of you really like puzzle games and enjoy figuring out these slidey rings, but it's just not a universal feeling. Even if the battle system was deeper with more items and abilities, I STILL wouldn't be a fan because figuring out this kind of puzzle feels more like homework than gaming.

I feel like I have to keep reiterating that I love basically every other part of the game (including the boss battles -- for some reason figuring out a good path doesn't seem as frustrating as figuring out the enemy patterns) but you just have to accept that the overworld battle puzzling is going to be very hit-and-miss for different people.

Snake Maze
Jul 13, 2016

3.85 Billion years ago
  • Having seen the explosion on the moon, the Devil comes to Venus


ImpAtom posted:

I am not clear on how TTYD has a higher skill ceiling unless you are claiming quickly solving puzzles is not a skill but timing button presses is

There's significantly more attacks with a wider variety of timed hits. Once you're comfortable with the regular timed hits you can start looking for the flourishes, extra unmentioned timed hits that reward extra super meter. Defensively, in addition to the regular defense with the A button you also have a parry on the B button, which has stricter timing but blocks all damage and deals 1 damage to the enemy.

In OK you have the jump, the hammer, and the fire flower timed hits, and that's it. You'll have mastered them before you even beat the first boss and you won't do anything else the entire game.

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

The plan here is to reinvent Rin Tin Tin as a modern action star, the John Wick of dogs.


I think early paper Mario have more of a feel of a battle of attrition, later ones have more of a feeling of "kill as fast as you can to avoid long term attrition.

They both have resources. Early ones you need to manage your mp usage, later ones you are managing your spells which are mostly one shot. Origami King didn't really have resource management, weapons last long enough to don't really need to worry about them, it's definitely more relaxed there. But the out of combat resources like money and confetti are very well balanced.

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



So Tanabe talked about unique NPC's and stated what the restrictions are.

Namely that since Sticker Star they can no longer give anything any defining gender traits (eyelashes etc) and they cannot depict age being younger or older. They apparently had some ideas for characters since Color Splash but they've been shot down whenever they try, so instead they just try to make the toads stand out with quips and the like.

https://nintendoeverything.com/pape...c-restrictions/


Lines up with this old article from 2014 where Nintendo in general announced the new policy for everyone.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2014/11/...-have-a-gender/

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




gender ruins everything, again

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Snake Maze posted:

There's significantly more attacks with a wider variety of timed hits. Once you're comfortable with the regular timed hits you can start looking for the flourishes, extra unmentioned timed hits that reward extra super meter. Defensively, in addition to the regular defense with the A button you also have a parry on the B button, which has stricter timing but blocks all damage and deals 1 damage to the enemy.

In OK you have the jump, the hammer, and the fire flower timed hits, and that's it. You'll have mastered them before you even beat the first boss and you won't do anything else the entire game.

Okay but you are still ignoring the puzzle part. Not only do enemies have different gimmicks but there are hidden shorter solutions which reward you for finding them. That is also a test of skill that you are straight up ignoring.

So It Goes
Feb 18, 2011


ImpAtom posted:

Okay but you are still ignoring the puzzle part. Not only do enemies have different gimmicks

I beat the game and the only enemy gimmick that affected the puzzles were boos? And I guess the enemies in the final green streamer. I would’ve loved if there were more gimmicks that changed up how you solve the ring puzzles honestly. The bosses were generally very good at that aspect (along with the fact you just do it less often so it doesn’t wear out it’s welcome as quick)

Snake Maze
Jul 13, 2016

3.85 Billion years ago
  • Having seen the explosion on the moon, the Devil comes to Venus


ImpAtom posted:

Okay but you are still ignoring the puzzle part. Not only do enemies have different gimmicks but there are hidden shorter solutions which reward you for finding them. That is also a test of skill that you are straight up ignoring.

I didn't mention it because I was thinking specifically about the differences between the battle systems in the games, but what enemy gimmicks are there? Boos go invisible but beyond that I don't remember any. "Hidden shorter solutions" is also overselling it imo, occasionally in the 3 move puzzles there's a 2 move solution but a lot of the time there isn't one, it's not something you'll be constantly aiming for.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



So It Goes posted:

I beat the game and the only enemy gimmick that affected the puzzles were boos? And I guess the enemies in the final green streamer. I would’ve loved if there were more gimmicks that changed up how you solve the ring puzzles honestly. The bosses were generally very good at that aspect (along with the fact you just do it less often so it doesn’t wear out it’s welcome as quick)

I mean that is objectively untrue. Depending on the enemies some require you to use different weapons which in turn means you need to consider different puzzle layouts to assure you can beat them in one turn. You can use items to get around those but "I have to use a different item in order to use the puzzle layout I discovered" is not exactly High End Challenge but is about as much thought as anything from any of the non M&L games requires.

Snake Maze posted:

I didn't mention it because I was thinking specifically about the differences between the battle systems in the games, but what enemy gimmicks are there? Boos go invisible but beyond that I don't remember any. "Hidden shorter solutions" is also overselling it imo, occasionally in the 3 move puzzles there's a 2 move solution but a lot of the time there isn't one, it's not something you'll be constantly aiming for.

It's overselling it as much as trying to pretend like TTYD is actually a very skillful game.

There are also one-turn solutions to 2-turns. If you're not aiming for them then that's fine because you don't need to to succeed but the same goes for the first two PMs by a huge degree.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:33 on Jul 29, 2020

robot roll call
Mar 7, 2006

dance dance dance dance dance to the radio




Augus posted:

I guess I'm just too much of a casual to play paper mario, a game for hardcore gamers only

That's why you can just pay the toads to do it for you if you want. I was playing stoned a lot and would mash that toad button the second I had to move more than like 3 enemies lol


Anyways, just beat it, great game. I could go either way, they could just ditch the battles and focus on the ARPG stuff and poking around environments or they could expand on the battles with more enemy gimmicks, maybe equippable items or badges so you could focus on different "builds" or something, I dunno. Either way I hope they build on this one for the next sequel.

Spellman
May 31, 2011



OK's attack system is as if you only have Multi-Bounce and Quake Hammer equipped. And Mario forgot his standard moves

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



The only time I tried the hurl hammer the boss caught it and beat me with it so I never did it again.

E: I mean it was really funny but still.

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

The plan here is to reinvent Rin Tin Tin as a modern action star, the John Wick of dogs.


The shiny hurl hammer is great. One less damage than legendary iron boots but also good through enemies carrying a shield over their head.

Spellman
May 31, 2011



John Wick of Dogs posted:

The shiny hurl hammer is great. One less damage than legendary iron boots but also good through enemies carrying a shield over their head.

I'm not that far but if this is the case, that's pretty welcome, I'm only starting Chapter 3

So It Goes
Feb 18, 2011


ImpAtom posted:

I mean that is objectively untrue. Depending on the enemies some require you to use different weapons which in turn means you need to consider different puzzle layouts to assure you can beat them in one turn.

“Need” is an interesting word to use given that I literally never once considered puzzle layout by enemy type (and never game over’d through combat even once). I just solved the puzzle as needed and as I talked about in a previous post, wished the following phase could’ve been skipped if the puzzle was in fact solved. It never mattered if spiky enemies were put into a line. I guess flying enemies couldn’t be put into a square but I don’t recall that ever being considered by me as they were always already preset into clear “line” puzzle solutions anyway.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



So It Goes posted:

“Need” is an interesting word to use given that I literally never once considered puzzle layout by enemy type (and never game over’d through combat even once).

That doesn't actually have anything to do with the conversation because it has already been acknowledged that TYYD is an insanely absurdly easy game that requires absolutely none of the stuff people are talking about to beat. The entire argument is about the fact that TTYD has depth despite being a game designed for literal children to finish without trouble.

No Paper Mario game is hard. No Mario RPG is hard. The closest ones you might get a game over in are the M&L games and even then you can probably facetank every blow and just shovel mushrooms into your mouth.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jul 29, 2020

MonsterEnvy
Feb 4, 2012


I think Origami king was cool, but I wish it has an exp system, with upgrades and stuff.

Electric Phantasm
Apr 7, 2011

YOSPOS



I do wonder how the game would have turned out if coins were used as exp like some people thought when the game first came out.

Throw in losing your coins whenever you die too I guess.

Tender Bender
Sep 17, 2004



To go on a tangent, I'm still in awe of the realization that you can slide rows in boss fights instead of only spinning rings, and the way some of those tiles are placed makes SO MUCH MORE SENSE NOW

yook
Mar 11, 2001



It was almost to the end of the game before I realized clicking the right stick puts your view vertical so you can see which squares everything is on earlier.
I don't know if sliding tiles during boss fights keeps between turns or it resets, but the tape felt like I'd hosed myself for 3 turns when I did it there.

I liked the game and didn't mind coins in place of xp, I actually kind of wished they leaned more into the no-xp thing and made avoiding enemies or first-hitting more significant if they're simply obstacles. Though one of initial criticisms I saw when deciding to buy or not was that they missed having xp and coins weren't useful out of combat, but by the end I felt the opposite. They did the curve well enough that I could usually afford the stat boost accessories at the end of an area but not the start so it was essentially xp that way, but I could also potentially spend them on other things besides combat and maybe options with the buyables or accessories could be fleshed out more. Meanwhile something like xp affects combat and literally only combat unless they went really wacky and tried doing things western RPG style.

But ultimately it's not TTYD and not trying to be. They specifically hit the notes of cute writing, puzzle gaming and an inviting world to collectathon in so either those things resonate with you or they don't.

YoshiOfYellow
Aug 21, 2015

Voted #1 Babysitter in Mushroom Kingdom


https://twitter.com/NintendoAmerica...534863323201536

Violen
Jul 25, 2009

Well obviously it did happen in the end, but this was not pleasant...


I can't believe Bowser Jr. is loving dead

Violen
Jul 25, 2009

Well obviously it did happen in the end, but this was not pleasant...


the dynamic between these two dweebs is great lol

Roach Warehouse
Nov 1, 2010




ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

The only time I tried the hurl hammer the boss caught it and beat me with it so I never did it again.

E: I mean it was really funny but still.

Whaaaat? was this the cutout hand snake? I loved the hurl hammer and never saw this. That rules.

Violen
Jul 25, 2009

Well obviously it did happen in the end, but this was not pleasant...


the game over cranks in the green streamer are pretty funny on a blind pass three feet from a save point but I cannot imagine the stress of all the on-field ways you can bite it total in this game for anyone wild enough to attempt a 'no game overs/accessories' run for those sweet banners

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MW
May 20, 2001

"Nooooooooo!?"

Finished the game a few days ago and had much greater time than expected. Liked the art style, set pieces, dialog and even the battles. The simplification to use coins was ultimately kind of point less; I always had more than I could spend, could buy all accessories / trophies immediately and still finished with 80k+. Never tried to grind, though I made an attempt to explore all areas to the best of my abilities without using a guide.

Kind of interested in trying Bug Fables now, but I think I’ll wait a few months to not burn myself out.

Was it just me, or didn’t the game feel kind of Zelda-ish? As a fan of Wind Walker I really liked “that” section. For some reason, the glowing spots in the dark desert reminded me of the glowing spots in the sea in Wind Waker.

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