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feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004

EVERY FAIRY TALE NEEDS ITS HERO.

Bleck posted:

I want a fun and engaging system but also I don't want it to engage me at all

It depends what you find engaging. Every review I've seen says that the battles don't involve any strategy, just puzzle-solving. Some reviewers miss the strategy, some don't. Some reviewers think the puzzles are fun, some don't. But personally I don't think I'd find battles with a lack of strategy engaging at all.

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Harrow
Jun 30, 2012




Khanstant posted:

If each new fight is essentially a new puzzle, I'm totally down. Menu based combat RPGs get boring during the first battle. I'm not horny for XP, I think generally it's a bad system for exactly the same reasons some people love it, being able to be under or overpowered via XP is a turnoff. Every battle should have a point, or it's a poo poo encounter we should skip. Intentionally fighting random trivial battles for XP is mechanic and system I won't allow in my household.

This is a buy. Question is, do I buy this or Death Stranding? I'll only have time for some of either this month and next.

Yeah, I don't care about XP, and to be fair I've only seen early game battles in previews. It just seems like the ring puzzles aren't ever going to be all that challenging and it's just going to feel like busywork to me before I get to just jump on or smash the enemies. Maybe that won't be the case.

The boss battles seem kind of neat, I just have a strong feeling that the normal encounters are going to get old kinda quickly, with or without an XP mechanic.

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




feedmyleg posted:

It depends what you find engaging. Every review I've seen says that the battles don't involve any strategy, just puzzle-solving. Some reviewers miss the strategy, some don't. Some reviewers think the puzzles are fun, some don't. But personally I don't think I'd find battles with a lack of strategy engaging at all.

strategy is a puzzle

RVWinkle
Aug 24, 2004

In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement within this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative.

Nap Ghost

Harrow posted:

it's just going to feel like busywork to me

I feel like the vast majority of RPGs devolve into repetitive fights that can be resolved by selecting the same command over and over again. I'd consider it a hallmark of the genre at this point.

Al-Saqr
Nov 11, 2007

The Islamic Orb Illuminati.

Just bought the game because I am a big baby that needs some Mario Ha-Ha funny times on this dying planet. Looking forward to it! It should be a nice bedtime game.

Also, RPG's are the very definition of busywork and grinding, the question is, is THIS version of busywork good enough? Guess I'll find out!

Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Jul 16, 2020

Nuts and Gum
Mar 15, 2010

Age 18 to 49

Bleck posted:

remember that game reviewer that took ten minutes to get out of the ten second-long Cuphead tutorial

lol

wait so Polygon is saying the combat is too punishing? lmao what is going on?

dbzfandiego
Sep 17, 2011


I'm really disappointed I was looking forward to playing a new Paper Mario but the battle system being what it is is turning me off, I'm bad at puzzles and just looking at the boss fights makes my head hurt. It just sucks when a childhood favorite moves in a direction that you cant follow. An RPG is defined by its options and in this game you have none which means that this game is just puzzles and I just cant stand puzzles. The idea that your coin supply is used directly as a crutch is interesting but probably too cleaver for its own good. I'll watch a lets play some day of this and Color Splash if/when I have the time or inclination.

Al-Saqr
Nov 11, 2007

The Islamic Orb Illuminati.

dbzfandiego posted:

I'm really disappointed I was looking forward to playing a new Paper Mario but the battle system being what it is is turning me off, I'm bad at puzzles and just looking at the boss fights makes my head hurt. It just sucks when a childhood favorite moves in a direction that you cant follow. An RPG is defined by its options and in this game you have none which means that this game is just puzzles and I just cant stand puzzles. The idea that your coin supply is used directly as a crutch is interesting but probably too cleaver for its own good. I'll watch a lets play some day of this and Color Splash if/when I have the time or inclination.

There are alternatives, the one that's released right now is 'Bug Fables' but there's a rather incredible looking one being developed currently called 'Loaf'

https://twitter.com/wildartsdevs/st...5232060416?s=20

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



Paper Scrap Story too

skaianDestiny
Jan 13, 2017

beep boop


Thousand Year Door opens up with a hangman's noose directly in the center of the screen within the first like 5 minutes. Has any of the games past Super Paper Mario had such a strong opening?

Al-Saqr
Nov 11, 2007

The Islamic Orb Illuminati.

very interesting article from the creators of the game that lays out why they keep changing things and refusing to do what fans want them to do:-

https://www.videogameschronicle.com...io-origami-king

some key quotes:-

quote:


“Games are entertainment, so I want the people who play our games to say ‘Wow!’ My understanding is that if we want to give players these positive surprises, we can’t do exactly the same thing that’s been done before.”

Kensuke Tanabe, a Nintendo veteran who oversees several franchises including Metroid Prime and Donkey Kong, tells VGC he does pay attention to feedback from Paper Mario fans and said he hopes they approach the latest game with an open mind.

“Nintendo’s philosophy on game creation is that we don’t ignore casual players in creating our games,” he says. “This is also true for games such as those in the Metroid Prime series; games that at first glance look like they are only aimed at core gamers.

“With that in mind, what we’ve done in the Paper Mario series is to put a lot of work particularly into the puzzle solving elements of the games, so that they can also be enjoyed by core users.

“So, for example, in Paper Mario: The Origami King, players need to guess the weak points of bosses based on their characteristics and search for the solution to defeat them, otherwise they won’t be able to win these battles. This is an adventure game after all, so it wouldn’t be right if the battles didn’t also have some kind of puzzle solving element!”

He adds: “However, I do think it’s difficult to satisfy certain fans with the adventure game direction if they think of Paper Mario games as simply being RPGs. I hope that everyone will play this game with an open mind.”


Apparently there's a quote here that might hint at why they dont make characters like Goombella and stuff anymore, apparently it's some sort of forced internal restriction by nintendo:-

quote:


Since Paper Mario: Sticker Star, it’s no longer possible to modify Mario characters or to create original characters that touch on the Mario universe. That means that if we aren’t using Mario characters for bosses, we need to create original characters with designs that don’t involve the Mario universe at all, like we’ve done with Olly and the stationery bosses.


Yeah it's pretty clear from this that they're well aware about what fans want but they're operating on a completely different outlook and wont probably give the fans what they're expecting anytime soon.

In any case, the game should be playable soon so I'm looking forward to it!

Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 16:44 on Jul 16, 2020

Judge Tesla
Oct 29, 2011



That's why we're stuck with loving boring Toads, because someone at Nintendo had a heart attack at all the original characters being made? God drat it.

Argue
Sep 29, 2005

I represent the Philippines

What does that mean though? In the preview clips, there are definitely original variants of Mario characters. In particular I remember seeing a Troopa with a moustache and walking stick, and a goomba with geisha hair. There were also a number of different Toads but I assume clothes are considered fair game.

And as far as I can tell from that interview, nothing's stopping them from creating wholly original characters like Vivian, Rawk Hawk, or Francis.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

HONKING IS VIOLENCE


Yeah, I'm totally down on them ignoring the brickheads who want them to re-release an old lovely combat system, but Nintendo not allowing them to explore the very world and universe the game is set in is a major turn off. I like the sound of the new combat system, but I've got a very low tolerance for number of toads I will tolerate in one game. Super Mario Maker 2 was pushing it with the toad count. Curse you, whoever at Nintendo is playing so tight to the chest with their whimsical IP.

Justin_Brett
Oct 23, 2012

GAMERDOME put down LOSER

We've known about that since Sticker Star, but since then there have also been games like Odyssey and Luigi's Mansion 3 that seem to be able to do their own thing way more. I'm not sure it's as simple as the higher-ups being really anal about Paper Mario's setting more-so than a main Mario killer app title.

Judge Tesla
Oct 29, 2011



Khanstant posted:

Curse you, whoever at Nintendo is playing so tight to the chest with their whimsical IP.

My money's on Miyamoto.

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012




RVWinkle posted:

I feel like the vast majority of RPGs devolve into repetitive fights that can be resolved by selecting the same command over and over again. I'd consider it a hallmark of the genre at this point.

This is true, but I think the more inputs/tasks each easy, repetitive fight requires, the sooner it just gets exhausting. There are ways to keep it fun for longer--Persona 5's really snappy combat that requires at least a little strategy, for example, or FFXII just letting you automate huge portions of it--but if it's "take time to solve the same type of simple puzzle every time then use one of two attacks" I just can't imagine it not becoming a horrible drag.

I'm hoping that's not the case because everything else about the game looks extremely charming and delightful, though.

Bleck
Jan 7, 2014




the focus on toads is especially baffling because literally nobody likes toads

if you had a game where every single NPC was a goomba wearing a different hat everyone would be ecstatic

hell can you imagine how exponentially better Captain Toad Treasure Tracker would have been if the entire game was exactly the same except Captain Toad was Captain Goomba

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012




Gimme a game full of koopa troopas

Avalerion
Oct 19, 2012



Judge Tesla posted:

That's why we're stuck with loving boring Toads, because someone at Nintendo had a heart attack at all the original characters being made? God drat it.

Maybe someone at Nintendo got scared of what happened with Sonic.

Electric Phantasm
Apr 7, 2011

YOSPOS



So they can't create more characters like Goombella, but they can create more characters like Vivian as shown by the helper characters in the post TTYD games.

Am I getting that right?

thebardyspoon
Jun 30, 2005


Electric Phantasm posted:

So they can't create more characters like Goombella, but they can create more characters like Vivian as shown by the helper characters in the post TTYD games.

Am I getting that right?

If that interview is accurate then it's probably not actually a hard and fast rule, more a guideline you have to argue against if you want to do otherwise and they aren't going to do that because they seem to enjoy making the games the way they've made them with the past few entries and Origami King.

thebardyspoon fucked around with this message at 18:05 on Jul 16, 2020

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



The koopa/goomba/snifit are all stage hands for a amusement park and just in costumes for it.

Electric Phantasm posted:

So they can't create more characters like Goombella, but they can create more characters like Vivian as shown by the helper characters in the post TTYD games.

Am I getting that right?

Yeah, they can make stuff as long as it's a completely original species which is what's getting overlooked a lot right now.

Mario Odyssey's dragon and whatnot are currently getting paraded around but like, it's not a koopa. Dr. Waluigi isn't a new character, it's Waluigi in a coat. The ghosts in Luigi's Mansion are a species of their own.
Intsys isn't Nintendo EAD, they're probably under far heavier restrictions

Its a bummer but it makes enough sense to me.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

HONKING IS VIOLENCE


Cappy shoulda been part of this

AlphaKeny1
Feb 17, 2006



they gave mario a gun

^burtle
Jul 17, 2001

God of Boomin'



We got Mario Rabbids but i would absolutely play a Toads vs Koopas X-Com style war game.

ThisIsACoolGuy
Nov 2, 2010

Shaped like a friend



I like Toads

It's me.

Al-Saqr
Nov 11, 2007

The Islamic Orb Illuminati.

Toads Rule

A Sometimes Food
Dec 8, 2010

Relinquish your foolish
delusions of control.





Al-Saqr posted:

very interesting article from the creators of the game that lays out why they keep changing things and refusing to do what fans want them to do:-

https://www.videogameschronicle.com...io-origami-king

some key quotes:-


Apparently there's a quote here that might hint at why they dont make characters like Goombella and stuff anymore, apparently it's some sort of forced internal restriction by nintendo:-


Yeah it's pretty clear from this that they're well aware about what fans want but they're operating on a completely different outlook and wont probably give the fans what they're expecting anytime soon.

In any case, the game should be playable soon so I'm looking forward to it!

I mean this was kinda obvious but really sucks to actually read. Just knocked a lot of enthusiasm out of me.

Supersonic Shine
Oct 13, 2012


Between this and shutting down fangames with extreme prejudice, it feels like the brand managers or whoever at Nintendo are incredibly neurotic about people getting "inaccurate" perceptions of their properties.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

HONKING IS VIOLENCE


I feel like most companies would've taken a phenomenae like "Bowsette" and actually ran with it. Yeah, maybe Nintendo doesn't want to get all horny on main, but you know, at least coyly take advantage of the demand for your brand. Make a Peach Odyssey, FFS, there's literally nothing about Mario that makes him better or worse at the tasks he does, how they make Super Mario 2 let you play as Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Toad but every game since then it's a toss-up whether you even get Luigi option. Just saying, even bowsette fever can be embraced in a kid friendly way if they would just stop acting like it's a privilege for us to even see their characters.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


Toads are fine. The sheer abundance of them in the previous games was the exhausting part. It would have been the same even if it was a bunch of generic Goombas or Bob-ombs.

Harrow posted:

This is true, but I think the more inputs/tasks each easy, repetitive fight requires, the sooner it just gets exhausting. There are ways to keep it fun for longer--Persona 5's really snappy combat that requires at least a little strategy, for example, or FFXII just letting you automate huge portions of it--but if it's "take time to solve the same type of simple puzzle every time then use one of two attacks" I just can't imagine it not becoming a horrible drag.

I'm hoping that's not the case because everything else about the game looks extremely charming and delightful, though.

A bunch of turn based RPGs do have repetitive gameplay, but it is still possible for it to be an engaging system. Etrian Odyssey actually makes random encounters engaging and a threat instead of fodder to pad out the game for one.

Also I wouldn't say allowing overleveling is bad design. Its an alternative brute force solution that lets more people have room to get past a specific battle, as not everyone gels with the systems of a game easily.

Toad King
Apr 22, 2008

Yeah, I'm the best


Soiled Meat

ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

I like Toads

It's me.

Al-Saqr posted:

Toads Rule

Harrow
Jun 30, 2012




Araxxor posted:

A bunch of turn based RPGs do have repetitive gameplay, but it is still possible for it to be an engaging system. Etrian Odyssey actually makes random encounters engaging and a threat instead of fodder to pad out the game for one.

Oh, definitely. That's what I meant to convey with my examples. Atlus RPGs in general tend to do a good job, from Etrian Odyssey's more threatening/varied random encounters to SMT and Persona 5's demon negotiation (and also threatening/at least somewhat strategic combat with the turn manipulation systems), things like that.

I mostly mean that what I've seen of Origami King's combat looks like it's simplistic enough, but with enough inputs/time required that it'll feel too much like busywork. Having XP/leveling wouldn't really fix that for me, either, that's not the real concern.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


quote:

"Is it difficult to find a balance that pleases all Paper Mario fans? Particularly hardcore players who want more RPG elements such as experience points, versus more casual players looking for an approachable experience?"

I'm just gonna say that's just rich coming from the people that made Sticker Star and its Thing based solutions when talking about an approachable experience. (Color Splash bandaged over the problem so it's less of an issue there.)

Araxxor fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Jul 16, 2020

Palmtree Panic
Jul 28, 2007

Trust Your Gut



It's a bummer they won't use some of the new species introduced in Odyssey.


I want to see Paper New Donkers.

Homora Gaykemi
Apr 30, 2020

"We live together in her Skull Cave. We cook each other dinner all the time. She gifted me this beautiful horse. Do you think I should ask her out?"*

*Ancient lesbo saying


Khanstant posted:

I feel like most companies would've taken a phenomenae like "Bowsette" and actually ran with it. Yeah, maybe Nintendo doesn't want to get all horny on main, but you know, at least coyly take advantage of the demand for your brand. Make a Peach Odyssey, FFS, there's literally nothing about Mario that makes him better or worse at the tasks he does, how they make Super Mario 2 let you play as Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Toad but every game since then it's a toss-up whether you even get Luigi option. Just saying, even bowsette fever can be embraced in a kid friendly way if they would just stop acting like it's a privilege for us to even see their characters.

lol that the one time they did give Peach her own adventure it was like "these broads, so overemotional, am i right fellas?"

the game itself was fun and i thought the graphics were really cute so i'd love some kind of sequel, but yeah

Homora Gaykemi fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Jul 16, 2020

MW
May 20, 2001

"Nooooooooo!?"

Definitely getting this game tomorrow but I expect to be disappointed like with the last two instalments.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

HONKING IS VIOLENCE


Homora Gaykemi posted:

lol that the one time they did give Peach her own adventure it was like "these broads, so overemotional, am i right fellas?"

the game itself was fun and i thought the graphics were really cute so i'd love some kind of sequel, but yeah

I almost wish they'd re-release it today just because it somehow escaped the scathing it deserve at launch. Like, everyone recognizes how blatantly and lazily sexist it is, I just think it deserves a whooping through twitter.

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Torquemadras
Jun 3, 2013



Learning that about trademarks and whatnot at Nintendo really loving sucks, because it directly targets one of the most beloved thing about Paper Mario characters: sidestories, weird designs, tons of descriptions about irrelevant, charming little details. They took out most of that. They feel like fundamentally different games that cannot possibly do better at being TTYD than TTYD, because they straight-up discarded the most distinct storytelling device. The rest of Color Splash or Sticker Star just isn't nearly good enough to make up for that intentional omission, and much more generic overall (despite the battle system experiments). I have little hope in Origami King.

Youtube it is

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