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Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Regarding the concern of lack of incentive and progression from battles, it seems like they might have actually addressed that this time around according to leaked copies of the game.

Coins can be used to permanently upgrade your stats. Why they didn't reveal this in marketing is beyond me.

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Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

I'm pretty sure the gamexplain guys said that there's no stat upgrades or anything just Olivia saying "you look stronger" after boss fights and you being able to instant kill weaker enemies.

Did they just miss a mechanic entirely or

No, Gamexplain was right. People must’ve confused being able to buy accessories as stat upgrades.

Apparently most battles aren’t avoidable, which I guess is how Intelligent Systems decided to “solve” the “running away from everything” issue. Clearing battles either open up parts of the world, or the pre-existing encounters are nearly impossible to avoid with how fast they can catch up to Mario.

Araxxor fucked around with this message at 22:55 on Jul 11, 2020

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Well it's clearly very a different battle system this time around, so that can't really be compared there. The question is will this system hold up? Hopefully it will.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Toads are fine. The sheer abundance of them in the previous games was the exhausting part. It would have been the same even if it was a bunch of generic Goombas or Bob-ombs.

Harrow posted:

This is true, but I think the more inputs/tasks each easy, repetitive fight requires, the sooner it just gets exhausting. There are ways to keep it fun for longer--Persona 5's really snappy combat that requires at least a little strategy, for example, or FFXII just letting you automate huge portions of it--but if it's "take time to solve the same type of simple puzzle every time then use one of two attacks" I just can't imagine it not becoming a horrible drag.

I'm hoping that's not the case because everything else about the game looks extremely charming and delightful, though.

A bunch of turn based RPGs do have repetitive gameplay, but it is still possible for it to be an engaging system. Etrian Odyssey actually makes random encounters engaging and a threat instead of fodder to pad out the game for one.

Also I wouldn't say allowing overleveling is bad design. Its an alternative brute force solution that lets more people have room to get past a specific battle, as not everyone gels with the systems of a game easily.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

quote:

"Is it difficult to find a balance that pleases all Paper Mario fans? Particularly hardcore players who want more RPG elements such as experience points, versus more casual players looking for an approachable experience?"

I'm just gonna say that's just rich coming from the people that made Sticker Star and its Thing based solutions when talking about an approachable experience. (Color Splash bandaged over the problem so it's less of an issue there.)

Araxxor fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Jul 16, 2020

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

Khanstant posted:

I feel like most companies would've taken a phenomenae like "Bowsette" and actually ran with it. Yeah, maybe Nintendo doesn't want to get all horny on main, but you know, at least coyly take advantage of the demand for your brand. Make a Peach Odyssey, FFS, there's literally nothing about Mario that makes him better or worse at the tasks he does, how they make Super Mario 2 let you play as Mario, Luigi, Peach, and Toad but every game since then it's a toss-up whether you even get Luigi option. Just saying, even bowsette fever can be embraced in a kid friendly way if they would just stop acting like it's a privilege for us to even see their characters.

Fan creations are a mess of copyright when companies get involved, and some companies don’t want to touch that with a 10-foot pole.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Also it got pretty flogged for that poo poo when it released back then.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

Nuts and Gum posted:

Nintendo is very much like a successful artist. Someone like weird al or Gary Larson not only ignore fan input, they actively dislike it. They want their creations to be their own.

It’s just weird how an entire publicly traded company can exist on that principle and continue to be successful.

This is only really true with Paper Mario. They're more willing to be loose with their other franchises and even parts of Mario and talked about how they took reception into account. See Odyssey and Luigi's Mansion 3, the latter of which Kensuke Tanabe also was a lead in. Granted they wanted portrait ghosts in Dark Moon, but couldn't implement them due to technological restrictions. But they did get rid of the mission structure in 3, which wasn't exactly a popular part of Dark Moon. With Paper Mario, it's more "we hear you, we don't care."

As for the statements, Nintendo probably just sent him out to take the heat for their bizarre restrictions on Paper Mario.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Confetti does not get used up unless it covers a hole. So feel free to party with it as you see fit.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Okay, I'm enjoying the boss battles way more than Sticker Star or Color Splash's so that's a really drastic improvement on that front.

Rock My Socks! posted:

One of the early reviews (Polygon) described the combat as “rediculously punishing”. Are ya’ll finding that to be the case?

Basically if you mess up horribly, you'll be taking a lot of damage, but the game is fairly forgiving, and different degrees of salving the ring puzzles can mitigate how much damage you take.

Amppelix posted:

I mean that's not a problem at all, it just means they have less health than it would appear. The problem was that you needed the arbitrarily chosen Things for the fights before. That just made the whole thing feel somewhat meaningless even if there was a "real" fight before you got to use it.

Yeah, from what I've played so far, it's honestly more of a super solution you can find to drastically shorten the battle, but you can still fight normally. As opposed to Sticker Star turning the battles into slogs and then insulting you if you didn't realize what the solution was, or Color Splash just instakilling you if you missed the boat on when to use the Thing. It's a much better middle ground that rewards good players but doesn't utterly punish people who try to play normally.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
The Water Vellumental was a cool fight. They're really not holding back in demanding you master the ring system in the boss battles.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
There is indeed a structure, but 64 and TTYD fell under that as well without being formulaic. And I'd say the same applies to Origami King as well, as the minute to minute actions are pretty different so far. Of all the criticisms I might have of this game, I definitely don't think that's one that applies.

vlad3217 posted:

I had never played a paper Mario before and so far I'm liking it. Just finished the red steamer and started the blue area. My main complaint so far is that I wish I could speed up the text, and that battles seemed a bit easy at times but I'm guessing that's going to ramp up now that I'm past the intro area essentially.

The red streamer area is a bit of an extended tutorial unfortunately, but the game stops holding your hand as much past that point. For one, enemies come pre-jumbled instead of showing you the solution first.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Bullet hell ballet. Oh my goodness. :allears:

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
https://twitter.com/DrAraxxor/status/1284761549660274688

https://twitter.com/DrAraxxor/status/1284761632707448832

Man, they clearly had fun making this game. And proud of it too given how much they're willing to show off or show you again.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
I love that there's multiple battle themes now. Liked what I heard of the sea battle theme.

Also wow, wasn't expecting that from a Paper Mario game, let alone a modern one. Rest in peace Bobby. :smith:

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

Vookatos posted:

I'm so loving happy about that. One thing I never understood about RPGs is that they just keep tormenting you with one theme, often in games that are 50+ hours long. Original MOTHER had plenty, and sequels (on SNES and loving GBA of all things) had almost a hundred combined!

Like Ampp said, it's really a case of not really having the production values to make that many a lot of the time. And expecting that many variations Origami King has for every game is nuts. (A lot of RPGs that even have multiple normal battle themes don't have as many versions as OK or the Mother series does. Like maybe 1 or 2 at most.) Though like, just 1 or 2 more extra normal battle themes would help a lot yeah.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cm4zNQD5gY

This one is probably my favorite version, and that bassline is so good.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Yeah, the game shows showcases early on that you can't blindly spam the magic circles, as I too have learned. Fortunately the game doesn't overly punish you for being a bit experimental in boss fights.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

Blackbelt Bobman posted:

The second Vellumental clowned me when I tried to use that or the earth velljmental attack while it was flying. I wish I had done better in that fight...

Good news. Check out the battle lab. You can rematch bosses there.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Apparently clearing everything gets a reward. Probably a trophy or a collectible.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.


This game really is gorgeous.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

Al-Saqr posted:

I just finished the red streamer, so far the boss system is really good, I got a little confused at first when I first fought the Vollumental but after practicing it a couple times it at the VR battle practice room it became a lot more understandable, I will say though, I kinda wish they made opening the chests in a boss battle different, because you’re already in mid stride when you open them so it’s impossible to plan to take what’s in the chest afterwards since the rings reset after each turn.

That's not how they work. What's in the chests are active for a while after opening them. You need to know this for the Fire Vellumental fight if you want to clear it quickly without Mario taking too much damage, as the Water Vellumental panel is only available once you open a chest.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

Blackbelt Bobman posted:

Who thought this was a good idea? Because I’d like to punch them through the internet.

Edit: is there a ? Block detecting radar thing? I need that, I’m sick of missing so many ? Blocks.

You have 2 tools later for it yes like with Toad hunting gear. And you pretty much need the accessory to find them, because some of these locations are horseshit. No way most players would find them on their own without the accessory.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

BurgerQuest posted:

Lol holy poo poo, what happened with TTYD? I see it going for $250-$350AUD on ebay here. Maybe I should sell my copy...

No other legal avenues to play it on other than the GameCube. No rereleases and no VC equivalent, so yeah prices shot up. Also something of a collector's item I guess.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
I can see why people bounce off the ring system, but I don't think it's the mechanics themselves that are bad. There's certainly more potential there that can be realized, not like with SS and CS' systems. Bosses really showcase this and are by far the highlight. They're actually really flexible on how you can manipulate the arena, giving you a ton of room to strategize and not demanding you find this one optimal solution.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Chapter 4 is literally Wind Waker, and I love it. :allears:

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

ImpAtom posted:

Honestly I don't think there is a significantly large difference between Origami King and a lot of modern combat systems. It actually feels a fair bit like something like Persona where the goal is to daisy-chain attacks together to give the enemies the bare minimum amount of attack time. Theoretically battles might be a bit longer than Persona if you're solving a puzzle but that's the key there: If they are taking longer it is because you're interacting with the mechanics.

There are places they could have shortened things a little bit but the core system is pretty interesting and they come up with quite a few ways to make the concept stand out more. The boss battles are obviously the highlight but honestly I think it'd be pretty cool if they evolved this system for the next one rather than going back to the drawing board.

Same. Unlike with SS and CS, which were basically worse versions of 64 and TTYD's systems, I feel like there are more interesting places to take this system, and it'd be a real shame if they just threw this one out for the next game.

Finished off the purple streamer. I love how they ended it off with basically the Tower of the Gods, and the boss fights here were also great. Also don't ignore chest panels in boss fights unless you want a bad time. They start getting pretty important. And it's one of the core mechanics of the Tape Dispenser battle.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
This part of the game is basically a horror game and I love it.

What the actual gently caress is with that Buzzy Beetle? Seeing that after seeing the remains of Bowser's minions was sure something. :catstare:

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Yeah some areas can't be reached without clearing up the crisis first. If you're missing something, wait until things get fixed to explore there again.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

LeafyOrb posted:

Her hints are the worst and are almost always borderline useless.

Huh? Are you talking about her in battle hints or field hints? Her in battle hints are rather generic, but she does at least point out if something is unusual about the enemy set you’re facing.

I’d have to disagree hard on the field hints. They’re pretty context sensitive and nudge you in the right direction if there’s a puzzle to be solved nearby. Way more helpful than Kersti, who didn’t even provide hints most of the time.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
100%ed Origami King. What a fantastic ride. I'd say this is easily as good as 64 and TTYD, if not flat out better.

I will say the final boss was a bit anticlimactic though. The presentation was nice, but gameplay wise it felt fairly lacking in comparison to all the wild stuff the rest of the game threw at you. The Vellumental boss rush was a nice way to open up the fight, but I feel like there should have been something more with the Ring mechanics in-between that and the sliding picture puzzle.

Amppelix posted:

I mean, I think the game might be a bit better if they could have more unique designs, but honestly i do not care, it doesn't hold origami king back at all.

Yeah it's really not a Sticker Star situation where that made the game even more unmemorable. There's a nice variety of NPCs you can interact with instead of just Toads.

Araxxor fucked around with this message at 03:46 on Jul 24, 2020

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Check out Graffiti Underground and explore it again when you're at endgame for a nice Easter egg.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

Torquemadras posted:

Maybe they mean that the story doesn't do any of the more unusual setups?

Like the detective wrestling saga, or the part where the boss steals your body after what seems to be the final fight, or the time where a world is destroyed mid-chapter in SPM. Not that this is necessarily better, but repeating the basic structure without any surprises seems like playing it safe.

Didn't play OK though, so no idea if that's true.

Having played through the whole game, this is absolutely not true at all. There are plenty of surprises and diverse environments and set pieces in this game. Hell they even screw with the "structure" a bit at some points. The moment to moment actions are vastly different within a given streamer compared to another streamer. A bit after the blue streamer, you get sent to the purple streamer area instead of the yellow streamer for a bit as a bit of a tease, and that was a great exploration moment. And then when you go to do the purple streamer area for real, that place opens up big time.

And some story beats could have fit into 64 or TTYD just fine. It's not like Sticker Star where the story was non-existent and it was just a series of functional events linked to another.

Justin_Brett posted:

They've had at least two games before this that went full-boar with Paper Mario meaning 'the whole setting is literally paper', so I think in that context just having major villains be things you use with paper in the real world is kind of unoriginal, especially when the main villain's gimmick feels more thought out and clever, at least to me.

Honestly they do a lot more with the fact that this world is papercraft in this game compared to the last two. The stationary bosses might seem like unoriginal concepts on paper, but they do a lot with them. Like in the green streamer Scissors being treated as the horrifying force of destruction in a papercraft world, and that entire section of the game basically becoming a horror game (complete with being able to peek into rooms beforehand) was a great and memorable moment.

Araxxor fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Jul 24, 2020

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Even the remake of Superstar kept some of the different enemy designs despite some other designs being changed to be more in line with the official designs. Though I think some of the changes there were more to correct some really off model stuff as original Superstar's spritework wasn't always the best. (Bowser's overworld sprite is really bad, and actually got changed in later versions of the game for one.)

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

YoshiOfYellow posted:

Yeah most of the complaints I've seen are in this vein, which is a fair complaint since the older games were definitely more liberal with character designs. That said though I think Bobby specifically looking pretty generic actually works really well with his story and character arc. He's literally a generic bob-omb, one of a million others who live short lives and just hope their one explosion is one that makes a difference. That lack of a unique design actually resonates really well with that, especially when you later run into a platoon of bob-ombs that have a lot of the same mannerisms.

Even in the older Paper Mario games, it's established that unique Bob-ombs can explode all they want, but Bobby is a generic mass produced model. And those don't come back after exploding in those games either.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

Augus posted:

it really seems like they’ve been straining against Nintendo’s various restrictions trying to make the kind of games they want to make.

I honestly haven't gotten that kind of impression from this game. Like, Sticker Star definitely falls under a very restrained and safe project, but this game gets very wild and there's a lot of little effort put into various places. I'm not sure how much the character design restriction really factored in for IntSys. It might've been something they just went along with without too much of a second though, and it's probably something that's not a big factor to the devs as it is to the fans.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Race one is the easiest of the bunch no matter which level it's at.

Level 3 Ring Scramble basically boils down to turning the rings rightside up, and then sliding the 2 rows out of place back into position.

Level 3 Ninji Scramble isn't too bad when you realize you should keep track of the 2 non-Ninji boxes instead.

You're just gonna have to be good at mental counting for Bath Math.

The rest should be easy from there.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Doing it in reverse won't help, as they scramble the ring in 7 moves, and you have to unscramble in 6.

What you actually have to do is rotate all the rings right side up, then slide the 2 rows out of place back into place.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.
Saying that "They're just doomed to stay in the shadow of TTYD" is really weird considering that the game is absolutely not trying to be like TTYD at all. Like going into Origami King expecting a follow up to TTYD is just gonna lead to massive disappointment. They're 2 entirely different games. Like I miss the TTYD style as well, as well as some of the more unique designs, but OK is very much its own thing. And the sting from lack of unique designs is lessened by running into Toads with more different outfits and being able to interact with Bowser's minions again, which really adds a lot more variety to the NPCs. I think that was one of the things I missed the most back when the Mario franchise got a bit weird on how to handle Bowser a few years ago. The coffee shop scenes were great, and being able to team up with Kamek and Bowser Jr. really added a lot to them.

Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

John Wick of Dogs posted:

Do I need to get over 100 points in the throwing star minigame for a trophy? My kid just said I did but he says lots of untrue stuff about this game. I got the one for 80 points after many many tries. I finally got like 95 on what felt like a perfect run where I was lucky and every 8 lined up perfectly.

Yes, it's true. You're going to have to be very preemptive about where the high number targets pop up.

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Araxxor
Oct 20, 2012

My disdain for you all knows no bounds.

John Wick of Dogs posted:

The purple streamer is the first area I 100%ed because I didn't want to leave


Is it the same every time?

I'll feel bad breaking that record. It would be like going to Al Bundy's shoe store and scoring 5 touchdowns in one game in front of him

I believe the layout is the same.

Also the Toad will be amazed if you beat his record, not heartbroken.

Amppelix posted:

I think that's just because of whiplash from sticker star. SPM still had the completely off the walls story and weirdo not-really-mario characters so it gets counted in the "good ones"

I do like spm even if i don't really enjoy actually playing it though.

Yeah I remember it being a divisive title back in the day. Even the story which gets praised now was kind of a tossup amongst people.

Araxxor fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Jul 27, 2020

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