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CAT INTERCEPTOR
Nov 9, 2004

I think you mean dont piss in the sink....again!

Hello and welcome to your new and OTA updated Electric Vehicle thread!

Firstly some house keeping -



1) General Automotive Insanity rules apply aka dont be an rear end in a top hat - refresh yourselves here : https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3920353

2) Musk Chat and TSLAQ is frowned on. Please take it to CSPAM : https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3862673

Alternatively if you want to avoid CSPAM, YOSPOS has Musk chat : https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3862643

3) Excessive Stanning for *insert brand here* is also frowned on. Truly excessive fanboyism aka "Bazingas" will be met with a thread ban.

4) No *instert brand here* without solid and sourced evidence. Things like TSLAQ twitter or ZeroHedge / Seeking Alpha / Electrek is not acceptible as a primary source. Also take note that carmakers screw up ICE pretty regularly too - EV's arent immune from production issues.

Speaking about your likes and dislikes is still encouraged as well as discussing issues that have good solid evidence. There's plently of people who are dissemination information in bad faith out on the wider Internet so please avoid randos on Twitter.

Don't talk to The Sicilian because The Sicilian is still threadbanned

If you have any questions, comments, suggestions, feel free to bring them up and speak to me via PM. Also if you feel that some one is not complying with the rules, absolutly please still report them.

----------------



Whats welcome and encouraged in this thread -

1) DIY EV

There is a rapidly developing EV modding community that is creating their own EV's or modfying existing ones. This is still early days but what is already happening is exciting and opens up possibilities to extend the life of cars we know and love. Within AI we have two projects -

https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3911577 - FD RX7

https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3853783 - 280ZX

https://forums.somethingawful.com/s...hreadid=3904277 - Alfa 105E

2) New and coming EV's

3) Ownership of EV's

We know EV's do have issues. That's part of onwership of any car - and we know Teslas especially do have production problems. That's fine. Whats not fine is barging in delcaring EV's all suck, they are all frauds, govts suck for handing out subsidies etc or one particular brand is made from the skins of baby whales.

Many of us are looking to go EV as our next purchase and I would prefer it if issues are discussed with facts so informed choices can be made.

4) PHEV's - Plugin Hybrids are also more than welcome

5) Racing EV's

Because EV's can be fast so lets go use them fast. Formula E chat is very much allowed.

Own a EV (4 wheels, two wheels or no wheels) or just interested? Everyone bar the Sicilian is welcome

CAT INTERCEPTOR fucked around with this message at 08:45 on Jul 23, 2020

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Elmnt80
Dec 30, 2012

I write my poems in the dirt with an oily rag
I have to wear a gas mask just so I don't gag
I got a SOCOM scout and twenty extra mags
And a couple severed heads in my bug-out bag






As you may be able guess from him making the OP, CI is the shiny new thread IK. I will still be handling reports and working with CI on them. We have a new start, lets make the best of it.

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

High Energy, Good Feeling!




My Nissan Leaf is the best EV.

Elmnt80
Dec 30, 2012

I write my poems in the dirt with an oily rag
I have to wear a gas mask just so I don't gag
I got a SOCOM scout and twenty extra mags
And a couple severed heads in my bug-out bag






Someone lend me like 100k so I can buy this whole setup and an aluminum hull 18 foot g3 bass boat to put it in.

In all seriousness though, I am curious why they are going with the i3 battery pack vs a leaf, tesla, bolt, etc. Is there something about the i3/i8 packs that makes it more ideal for this kind of application?

MomJeans420
Mar 19, 2007

Most of the gear, most of the time


There's also a YOSPOS Tesla thread that I can only assume is much better than the CSPAM one (I'm never going into CSPAM). Why is The Sicilian banned anyway? I don't know who that is.

CAT INTERCEPTOR
Nov 9, 2004

I think you mean dont piss in the sink....again!

MomJeans420 posted:

There's also a YOSPOS Tesla thread that I can only assume is much better than the CSPAM one (I'm never going into CSPAM). Why is The Sicilian banned anyway? I don't know who that is.

The Sicilian was a really god awful poster who turned the first EV thread into a smoking crater with constant fights with pretty much anyone.

I'll add YOSPOS as an alternate for Musk Chat.

CAT INTERCEPTOR fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jul 14, 2020

gwrtheyrn
Oct 21, 2010

AYYYE DEEEEE DUBBALYOO DA-NYAAAAAH!


The best EV is the one you have in your garage

Shamino
Mar 14, 2008

I am weary of loitering about Britain. There is much we could be accomplishing! Where hast thou been, anyway?

gwrtheyrn posted:

The best EV is the one you have in your garage

Even the Fiat 500e or Mitsubishi imeev?

gwrtheyrn
Oct 21, 2010

AYYYE DEEEEE DUBBALYOO DA-NYAAAAAH!


Shamino posted:

Even the Fiat 500e or Mitsubishi imeev?

Corollary: the worst EV is the one you have in your garage

MomJeans420
Mar 19, 2007

Most of the gear, most of the time


CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:

The Sicilian was a really god awful poster who turned the first EV thread into a smoking crater with constant fights with pretty much anyone.

That sounds like an impressively bad poster.

I changed lanes approaching a light the other day to avoid a slow car and ended up being two cars back from a Smart car EV. As you'd expect, that was the worst possible choice of lanes to be in if you wanted to do at least the speed limit, but I'm not sure I've seen another Smart EV before? Maybe I just didn't notice them, but I certainly haven't heard anyone talk about them.

Charles
May 9, 2004

zoom-zoom


Toilet Rascal

The Fast Lane Car youtube channel has one I believe, though I haven't watched the vids on it.

pun pundit
Nov 11, 2008

I feel the same way about the company bearing the same name.

Shamino posted:

Even the Fiat 500e or Mitsubishi imeev?

These are both perfectly suitable for bringing small amounts of people/things short distances and finding parking spaces to fit into in European cities. The iMiev even has chademo. Also they are real cheap used.

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

High Energy, Good Feeling!




Elmnt80 posted:

Someone lend me like 100k so I can buy this whole setup and an aluminum hull 18 foot g3 bass boat to put it in.

In all seriousness though, I am curious why they are going with the i3 battery pack vs a leaf, tesla, bolt, etc. Is there something about the i3/i8 packs that makes it more ideal for this kind of application?

Probably because the i3 has good thermal management, at a decent kWh rating, without being as popular (i.e. expensive) as a Tesla battery pack, and because the Leaf pack is superior to all others they're in too high demand.to be economical.

Nessus
Dec 22, 2003

I still can't believe they cast Spock as me. Spock! Can you imagine?

Of course, he was missing a few things.




I'm a literal child, what does TSLAQ mean, is it a hashtag or something? I will remove this if I am poo poo stirring I literally do not know

gwrtheyrn
Oct 21, 2010

AYYYE DEEEEE DUBBALYOO DA-NYAAAAAH!


Nessus posted:

I'm a literal child, what does TSLAQ mean, is it a hashtag or something? I will remove this if I am poo poo stirring I literally do not know

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSLAQ

Apparently it has a wikipedia article

Elmnt80
Dec 30, 2012

I write my poems in the dirt with an oily rag
I have to wear a gas mask just so I don't gag
I got a SOCOM scout and twenty extra mags
And a couple severed heads in my bug-out bag






Elviscat posted:

Probably because the i3 has good thermal management, at a decent kWh rating, without being as popular (i.e. expensive) as a Tesla battery pack, and because the Leaf pack is superior to all others they're in too high demand.to be economical.

I could buy the expense arguement except they charge $32k for just the i3 battery pack when the i3 itself only costs like $45k new. I can't imagine the entire rest of an i3 is worth $13k. Though most of their prices on the deep blue stuff seem extremely inflated and theres a definite lack of competition in this area to drive down costs.

Thermal management is an interesting issue since the only place I can see mounting that battery pack to maintain proper weight distibution would be in the place of the fuel tank which in a more modern boat tends to sit down below the deck. I imagine you'd get some interesting issues having it placed down there, even with the large mass of water nearby to help keep things cool.

AlexanderCA
Jul 21, 2010


Am I the only person on this planet who loves the cyber truck's styling?

gwrtheyrn
Oct 21, 2010

AYYYE DEEEEE DUBBALYOO DA-NYAAAAAH!


I'd bet pricing was not a primary concern. I'd guess things like providing a warranty for the intended use and even supplying the packs at all would trump cost any day of the week. In 2016, someone claimed it was 16k for an i3 battery pack, but I'm not sure if that was ever really official or if it's still current.

DoubleT2172
Sep 24, 2007


AlexanderCA posted:

Am I the only person on this planet who loves the cyber truck's styling?

Nope, I think a lot of people love it. I didn't love it at first but it grew on me quickly and I want one (though I'll never buy one because $40+k for a truck I don't need is way over my budget) but I'll definitely gawk at any one I see in the near future

big crush on Chad OMG
Feb 22, 2005





These rules definitely seem fair and balanced, as does the IK. We cant even post articles from certain sites now because they don’t align with the position of the IK? The same IK who tried to deflect Tesla quality issues with a “but what about Subaru?” post that’s apparently now against the rules?

And then we have people “disseminating information in bad faith” online. What exactly is the bar for this? Is it anything that the IK/mod doesn’t agree with?

It seems weird that the mod post in the last thread was “hey there are a lot of reports” and barely any posters engaged with it or cited concerns, and then we come around to a new thread with threats of threadbans if you don’t toe the line.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR
Apr 12, 2010




MomJeans420 posted:

I changed lanes approaching a light the other day to avoid a slow car and ended up being two cars back from a Smart car EV. As you'd expect, that was the worst possible choice of lanes to be in if you wanted to do at least the speed limit, but I'm not sure I've seen another Smart EV before? Maybe I just didn't notice them, but I certainly haven't heard anyone talk about them.

They're still around and kicking. smart was wildly unpopular and really only sold cars in the US as part of Daimler's Car2Go urban carsharing program. Car2Go is dead now (in the US) so that killed their main market. A few years back they decided to pivot to EV only in the US, which wasn't a particular success, and now they're dead in the US. The smart ED had a 16.5 kwh battery and 20kw and could get about 80 miles of range because they are very slow and very small. more like a big enclosed golf cart than a real car.

In Europe they're still being produced in successive generations but there was really no market for them in the US.

KYOON GRIFFEY JR fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Jul 14, 2020

Applebees Appetizer
Jan 23, 2006



CAT INTERCEPTOR posted:

the first EV thread into a smoking crater with constant fights

Pretty much why I avoided the first thread. Hope this one goes well thanks guys!

CAT INTERCEPTOR
Nov 9, 2004

I think you mean dont piss in the sink....again!

big crush on Chad OMG posted:

These rules definitely seem fair and balanced, as does the IK. We cant even post articles from certain sites now because they don’t align with the position of the IK? The same IK who tried to deflect Tesla quality issues with a “but what about Subaru?” post that’s apparently now against the rules?

And then we have people “disseminating information in bad faith” online. What exactly is the bar for this? Is it anything that the IK/mod doesn’t agree with?

It seems weird that the mod post in the last thread was “hey there are a lot of reports” and barely any posters engaged with it or cited concerns, and then we come around to a new thread with threats of threadbans if you don’t toe the line.

I'm happy to give you a more thoughtful and longhand answer tomorrow if you would like.

But the short answer is I actually have no real opinion other than I like EV's as a car nerd, I'm highly interested where it's all going and both sides extreme of the EV debate are utterly insufferable and there is a lot of genuine bullshit on the Internet in regards to especially Tesla by pro and anti factions. And that the main point here is please consider your sources before declaring them factual. If in the unlikely event Zerohedge says something factual about Tesla or Electrek says some thing absurdly positive about EV's that has other good respectible sources backing it up.... that's fair game.

As far as I am aware the only person to be threadbanned in AI from any topic is The Sicilian and hoooo boy did he earn that - ie the bar for being kicked is awfully high and you really gonna have to earn it - and any decision to threadban wont be arbitrary and nor will it be one persons call. You're not even getting any admonishment if you disagree with me, hell, I'll be happy to engage and discuss for hours. If you get the flamethrowers out or poo poo up the discussion with really excessive fanboi or "Ev's are powered by the heart of a dead orphan!!!'(*)" then thats different. SA also have places you can shitpost about Musk and it's all a scam etc to your hearts content - we're trying more to focus about the cars and not what turns EV chat into poison and just awful to read. I personally have no objective other than to have this thread calm and enjoyable.

(*) If it turns out the Cybertruck actually IS powered by the heart of a dead orphan.... then go for it.

Finger Prince
Jan 5, 2007

"I think he's watching us..."

"No, it's just the Mountain Peeks."
(Source)




Oh wow thanks for this link! This is my dream project were I ever to have the time money and resources to indulge in such a thing.

big crush on Chad OMG
Feb 22, 2005





You say consider your sources but the OP straight up blacklists several of them. It doesn’t appear that rule or any others were developed with the community involved, and it comes across as very biased.

The same holds true on the Twitter piece and reads that you can’t post someone’s tweet unless there is “solid evidence”, but that seems to set a very high bar, and possibly intentionally created that way.

TheWevel
Apr 14, 2002
Send Help; Trapped in Stupid Factory

Did my first ever DC fast charge on my Bolt yesterday... that charge cord was THICC.

Westy543
Apr 18, 2013

GINYU FORCE RULES



If we save anything from the last thread, it should be this post:

xel posted:

Getting an EV is a magical thing. Congratulations to all goons getting a Tesla or otherwise, plugging in your car is just cool.


big crush on Chad OMG posted:

You say consider your sources but the OP straight up blacklists several of them. It doesn’t appear that rule or any others were developed with the community involved, and it comes across as very biased.

The same holds true on the Twitter piece and reads that you can’t post someone’s tweet unless there is “solid evidence”, but that seems to set a very high bar, and possibly intentionally created that way.

I read the rule of thumb as be mindful of sources that have a direct financial interest in Tesla's success / failure, and acknowledge that bias exists rather than taking them as gospel.

Itzena
Aug 2, 2006

Nothing will improve the way things currently are.

Slime TrainerS

big crush on Chad OMG posted:

You say consider your sources but the OP straight up blacklists several of them. It doesn’t appear that rule or any others were developed with the community involved, and it comes across as very biased.

The same holds true on the Twitter piece and reads that you can’t post someone’s tweet unless there is “solid evidence”, but that seems to set a very high bar, and possibly intentionally created that way.

If it's a genuine news item then it will be reported on outside of those particular sites, surely?

Elviscat
Jan 1, 2008

High Energy, Good Feeling!




Yeah, Electrek has absolutely 0 journalistic integrity, they were a straight up Tesla shill for years, because, surprise, the owners had gobs of Tesla stock, they've since said they've divested themselves after getting called on their poo poo, and are trying to be more even handed, but any article by them should be thoroughly scrutinized.

borkencode
Nov 10, 2004


gwrtheyrn posted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSLAQ

Apparently it has a wikipedia article

I didn't know the Q came from stock market shorthand, I honestly just assumed it got picked up from the Qanon conspiracy people.

big crush on Chad OMG
Feb 22, 2005





Westy543 posted:

If we save anything from the last thread, it should be this post:



I read the rule of thumb as be mindful of sources that have a direct financial interest in Tesla's success / failure, and acknowledge that bias exists rather than taking them as gospel.

That’s not what the rule is though. It’s you can’t post anything without “solid and sourced” evidence and these sites in particular are not allowed. What makes a site not allowed? There isn’t any criteria listed. Is it just the IKs discretion?

Itzena posted:

If it's a genuine news item then it will be reported on outside of those particular sites, surely?

If it breaks on those sites first, the rules as written exclude it from being posted since they are the primary source.

My point here is that these rules appear to be created in a vacuum without any community involvement, despite the mod post in the last thread trying to engage the community. Why bother engaging if you’re going to do whatever you want anyway and make up thread specific rules without input from the people who post in that thread?

McPhearson
Aug 4, 2007
Hot Damn!

KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:

They're still around and kicking. smart was wildly unpopular and really only sold cars in the US as part of Daimler's Car2Go urban carsharing program. Car2Go is dead now (in the US) so that killed their main market. A few years back they decided to pivot to EV only in the US, which wasn't a particular success, and now they're dead in the US. The smart ED had a 16.5 kwh battery and 20kw and could get about 80 miles of range because they are very slow and very small. more like a big enclosed golf cart than a real car.

In Europe they're still being produced in successive generations but there was really no market for them in the US.

When Smart first came to the US it was incredibly popular. People were putting deposits down a year before they came to market, and even then there was a 12-18 month wait to get one. Individual dealerships had their own reservation system as well; I know the Smart Center in Beverly Hills required a $2000 deposit just to be on the list of people called when a new one was available. Dealers were installing stuff like alarm systems on them in order to charge a $3k-$4k markup since they were supposed to be a "haggle-less" car, and even then they could barely keep them in stock. What really killed it was the 2008 recession that hit that same year they came out. Not a great year to launch a brand new, micro-car in the US.

MomJeans420
Mar 19, 2007

Most of the gear, most of the time


ZeroHedge is definitely a site that should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt (maybe a salt mine) and really just not posted, but a lot of Seeking Alpha articles are very well researched (for example Montana Skeptic, who Musk doxxed). Be it a Twitter post or a Seeking Alpha article, if the post/article is citing Tesla's SEC filings and publicly available registration data from various jurisdictions, I think it's on people who have a problem with it to refute the point. It's been my experience that very few people bother to read what Tesla actually files with the SEC versus random headlines they see on CNBC or something similar.

Here's a question for the thread rules - do we consider something like below appropriate for this thread? It's more autonomous vehicle related

A German court just banned the use of the term "autopilot" for Teslas in Germany. This is not surprising, and if we were under any other regulatory environment than the current one in the US I would have expected the terms "autopilot" and "full self driving" to already have been banned from use by Tesla.

Finger Prince
Jan 5, 2007

"I think he's watching us..."

"No, it's just the Mountain Peeks."
(Source)



big crush on Chad OMG posted:

You say consider your sources but the OP straight up blacklists several of them. It doesn’t appear that rule or any others were developed with the community involved, and it comes across as very biased.

The same holds true on the Twitter piece and reads that you can’t post someone’s tweet unless there is “solid evidence”, but that seems to set a very high bar, and possibly intentionally created that way.

Speaking for just me, I genuinely don't give a poo poo what anybody posts on twitter. And since empty quoting twitter posts seems to be exclusively used as proof that "see? I told u they was poo poo!" arguments, I'd say the mods are right to try to clamp down on it. Given that most of the rot of the previous threads was essentially "Twitter/clickbait article empty quote-see, xxx is poo poo-no it ain't-yeah-nah-yeah-nah" repeated until someone hits report, do we really need more of that?

big crush on Chad OMG
Feb 22, 2005





Finger Prince posted:

Speaking for just me, I genuinely don't give a poo poo what anybody posts on twitter. And since empty quoting twitter posts seems to be exclusively used as proof that "see? I told u they was poo poo!" arguments, I'd say the mods are right to try to clamp down on it. Given that most of the rot of the previous threads was essentially "Twitter/clickbait article empty quote-see, xxx is poo poo-no it ain't-yeah-nah-yeah-nah" repeated until someone hits report, do we really need more of that?

I definitely want to see what actual consumers of EVs are saying. Like it or not, that’s probably going to come from Twitter because the average joe doesn’t own an EV news site to post content related to their car. Clamping down on certain sites the power that be feel are biased in conjunction with banning individual’s posts feels like an intentional process to create an echo chamber.

RZA Encryption
May 11, 2006

I will never reveal the exponential secret.


You seem very concerned with the rules. Just post. The twitter rule is "don't post randos". I think the common interpretation of that is "don't post unsubstantiated claims from people that have no known credibility to be making them". If there's a tweet video of a spark ev vs a leaf drag race, absolutely post it. elviscat, lets do it

big crush on Chad OMG
Feb 22, 2005





My concern stems from the fact that people seemingly want to enforce rules for communities without engaging with them. Banning certain sites and post types because you don't personally like them without discussing it first is objectively bad.

Finger Prince
Jan 5, 2007

"I think he's watching us..."

"No, it's just the Mountain Peeks."
(Source)



big crush on Chad OMG posted:

I definitely want to see what actual consumers of EVs are saying. Like it or not, that’s probably going to come from Twitter because the average joe doesn’t own an EV news site to post content related to their car. Clamping down on certain sites the power that be feel are biased in conjunction with banning individual’s posts feels like an intentional process to create an echo chamber.

What is gained from making and having those arguments though, over and over? Would it be normal and ok to go into the 4x4 thread and post tweets of everyone with a broken jeep or whatever, as a way to what, dissuade people from buying a jeep? Prompting posts of jeep owners who reply that well my jeep never broke! (maybe that's not a thing anyone has ever said, just run with me on this.). It's just pointless threadshitting.

big crush on Chad OMG
Feb 22, 2005





Finger Prince posted:

What is gained from making and having those arguments though, over and over? Would it be normal and ok to go into the 4x4 thread and post tweets of everyone with a broken jeep or whatever, as a way to what, dissuade people from buying a jeep? Prompting posts of jeep owners who replying that well my keep never broke! (maybe that's not a thing anyone has ever said, just run with me on this.). It's just pointless threadshitting.

I've never said I want to see posts about broken EVs. I said I want to see posts from actual consumers. That may be good, it may be bad, but as EVs are a fast moving and evolving space, it's nice to see whats actually happening in the real world.

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Finger Prince
Jan 5, 2007

"I think he's watching us..."

"No, it's just the Mountain Peeks."
(Source)



big crush on Chad OMG posted:

I've never said I want to see posts about broken EVs. I said I want to see posts from actual consumers. That may be good, it may be bad, but as EVs are a fast moving and evolving space, it's nice to see whats actually happening in the real world.

That's not what people use those posts for in the previous threads though.

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