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Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


prom candy posted:

Sit on top is better for casting, generally you need a lot of gear that's all easily accessible, and you want a good platform for mounting poo poo all over the place. Plus you want to be able to fish standing up (which like I said is something mine doesn't actually do that well)

As far as materials go my kayak gets beat to hell because I'm always trying to fish somewhere stupid (next to downed trees, next to big rocks, in 2 feet of water, etc.) and I wouldn't want something where I was cringing every time I banged or scraped it.

Kevlar is super durable even compared to plastic. We often break ice while duck hunting with our poke Kevlar boat.

We haul a ton of gear in our poke boat, like 3 dozen duck decoys, dry bags and a shotgun and shoot from the boat. I donít see any advantage to plastic boats besides upfront cost.

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Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




ur in my world now posted:

I want to go kayaking despite it being 100 degrees outside but my local river is down to like 3 ft of water and I'm too lazy to drive out to a lake. I keep hoping for the summer thunderstorm season to start but it's been pretty dry so far

Three feet's fine. You can float a kayak in a foot.

Get to it.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012



Grimey Drawer

Flatland Crusoe posted:

Kevlar is super durable even compared to plastic. We often break ice while duck hunting with our poke Kevlar boat.

We haul a ton of gear in our poke boat, like 3 dozen duck decoys, dry bags and a shotgun and shoot from the boat. I donít see any advantage to plastic boats besides upfront cost.

Cost is the major driver. A roto mold assembly with minimal post processing is far more cost effective than a composite manufacturing setup. I'm not sure I've ever seen a composite sit on top. I paid like $400 for my sit on top plastic boat, closest comparison that is that short I can find is a 12' kevlar canoe that's $2,500. The fishing kayak market seems to go from entry level plastic like my Pescador 10.0 all the way up Hobie's and Native Watercraft. Unfortunately no options for any composite boats.

It's also really easy to just drill some holes, mount a holder or rigging line, and be done. Composites require a bit more post processing.

piss-bottle man
Jan 1, 2010

covered in cat hair



JaneError posted:

Any thoughts/recommendations on inflatable SUPs? I'm in the Midwest near lots of lakes and rivers, intending to use it for casual recreational purposes, so the durability and portability of an inflatable is probably my best bet right now. Budget-wise, probably in the $400-500 range, though I could stretch that. I've seen the iROCKER Nautical and the Gili AIR on a lot of lists but didn't know if anyone had firsthand experience.

My wife and her friend both have ROC inflatables (purchased through Amazon) and theyíve had no issues in the few months theyíve owned them. I just bought an Atoll (gets great reviews, though a bit more expensive than the ROC) but I havenít had a chance to test it out yet. The build quality on both brands is good.

piss-bottle man fucked around with this message at 13:41 on Jul 23, 2020

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


Yooper posted:

Cost is the major driver. A roto mold assembly with minimal post processing is far more cost effective than a composite manufacturing setup. I'm not sure I've ever seen a composite sit on top. I paid like $400 for my sit on top plastic boat, closest comparison that is that short I can find is a 12' kevlar canoe that's $2,500. The fishing kayak market seems to go from entry level plastic like my Pescador 10.0 all the way up Hobie's and Native Watercraft. Unfortunately no options for any composite boats.

It's also really easy to just drill some holes, mount a holder or rigging line, and be done. Composites require a bit more post processing.

Used composite boats rarely sell for over $1k from what Iíve seen and bought. My carbon fiber racing canoe was a $4-5k Boat new and I bought it for $900 and easily sold it for a similar amount. The only composite boats I see bring more money consistently are Wenonah canoes and Composite surf skiís at those are like $2k at most used. Here is a great example of an amazing used composite boat https://www.ebay.com/itm/Poke-Boat-...c75f2%7Ciid%3A1

I understand why $300 plastic boats are attractive but a lot of guys end up building $2-3k plastic monsters that start with a weight well over 100 lbs before they pile on a bunch of gear to the point you canít move the boat without a truck or trailer.

I donít think modifying a composite boat is particularly difficult and their repairability is quite a bit better than plastic welding.

I know I have somewhat contrary opinions to the current boat group think but in my opinion keeping a paddle powered boat as maneuverable, light and simple as possible is where their greatest value lies.

prom candy
Dec 16, 2005

Only I may dance

The used kayak market around me is people selling $299 plastic kayaks for $200. My plastic fishing kayak was $1100 CAD, there's no way I could afford an equivalent boat in a nicer material.

bus hustler
Mar 14, 2019



The used canoe/kayak market is EXCEPTIONALLY regional. It's also one of those weird markets where there aren't a lot of people buying, but there also aren't a lot of people selling. For us when we bought a Kevlar touring canoe... our options were limited, and we still had to drive like 4-5 hours round trip to pick it up.

I was constantly killed by how fragile our boat was for such a long trip but my god with two strong paddlers we were fast and pretty drat maneuverable. We'd come up on people in rentals or just tooling around and rip past them and it was always cool. We generally travel light and I feel people treat canoe trips like car camping & make themselves needlessly miserable.

We also had CF paddles on the trip with a big honkin cheap plastic paddle as our spare, we also used it as a pole/line and even to push off rocks.

bus hustler fucked around with this message at 17:25 on Jul 23, 2020

JaneError
Feb 4, 2016

how would i even breathe on the moon?

piss-bottle man posted:

My wife and her friend both have ROC inflatables (purchased through Amazon) and theyíve had no issues in the few months theyíve owned them. I just bought an Atoll (gets great reviews, though a bit more expensive than the ROC) but I havenít had a chance to test it out yet. The build quality on both brands is good.

Thanks for this. We went ahead with the ROCs--price seemed right and it seems like it'll fit our needs just fine for a while. We're not planning any long or exotic trips with them, just a couple hours paddling at different parks and lakes around the region. That said, I can definitely see where there's room/opportunity to upgrade if we get the bug for it.

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


charity rereg posted:

The used canoe/kayak market is EXCEPTIONALLY regional. It's also one of those weird markets where there aren't a lot of people buying, but there also aren't a lot of people selling. For us when we bought a Kevlar touring canoe... our options were limited, and we still had to drive like 4-5 hours round trip to pick it up.

I was constantly killed by how fragile our boat was for such a long trip but my god with two strong paddlers we were fast and pretty drat maneuverable. We'd come up on people in rentals or just tooling around and rip past them and it was always cool. We generally travel light and I feel people treat canoe trips like car camping & make themselves needlessly miserable.

We also had CF paddles on the trip with a big honkin cheap plastic paddle as our spare, we also used it as a pole/line and even to push off rocks.

Yeah when I bought my carbon boat it popped up like 4 hours away in the middle of January. First email to the boat picked up was like 48 at most. I basically dropped everything, built a rack that day from 2x4ís, pull the cash from an ATM and took off to get it.

Iíve found similar deals intermittently and all were usually 6-12 hours away. The beauty of canoes and kayaks is the cost of keeping them is next to zero compared to something with a motor, registration and trailer. It sucks to drop thousands on a boat without a motor but when you get it out 20 times a year for 25 years its worth it.

piss-bottle man
Jan 1, 2010

covered in cat hair



JaneError posted:

Thanks for this. We went ahead with the ROCs--price seemed right and it seems like it'll fit our needs just fine for a while. We're not planning any long or exotic trips with them, just a couple hours paddling at different parks and lakes around the region. That said, I can definitely see where there's room/opportunity to upgrade if we get the bug for it.

Sure thing. I think the ROCs will be great for leisurely paddling (which is exactly what we do). Enjoy!

HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
Do you have an Air Miles Card?

charity rereg posted:

We generally travel light and I feel people treat canoe trips like car camping & make themselves needlessly miserable.

But what if I want to bring a ton of beer and a good chair on my camping trip and there's no portage? I'm the opposite of miserable!

bus hustler
Mar 14, 2019



HappyHippo posted:

But what if I want to bring a ton of beer and a good chair on my camping trip and there's no portage? I'm the opposite of miserable!

I don't actually know what "no portage" means but it sounds fun But yes then go nuts and sink the boats with booze IMO

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


charity rereg posted:

I don't actually know what "no portage" means but it sounds fun But yes then go nuts and sink the boats with booze IMO

We would go on ďfloat tripsĒ on Ozark scenic rivers where a 1970ís school bus drives like 60 people 4 miles up stream and you would just coast back to the takeout at the camp ground. Being blackout drunk was the norm for a 3 day weekend. The cost of the canoe rental, shuttle and camping was like $50/person for whole weekend. Itís like the opposite of boundary waters.

JaneError
Feb 4, 2016

how would i even breathe on the moon?

Flatland Crusoe posted:

We would go on ďfloat tripsĒ on Ozark scenic rivers where a 1970ís school bus drives like 60 people 4 miles up stream and you would just coast back to the takeout at the camp ground. Being blackout drunk was the norm for a 3 day weekend. The cost of the canoe rental, shuttle and camping was like $50/person for whole weekend. Itís like the opposite of boundary waters.

Can confirm, float trips are cool and good (and social distancing friendly in tyool 2020)

bus hustler
Mar 14, 2019



One of the things we were going to do on our trip was take a day up in Maine & do acid in the wilderness but it was in the stolen bag so we never got around to it.

Syano
Jul 13, 2005


Hey friends... can I get some help here. My kids and I have fallen in love with bass fishing this year. I have 3 boys all 10 and under. A bass boat really isn't in the cards because ya know they are expensive as hell and also its like impossible to find a boat that fishes more than 2 people. So I am looking into angling Kayaks. I have not yet figured out if I need a couple tandems or if I need 1 for each person or a combination and then I have no clue what brands to even look at. Can anyone shed their wisdom on this?

bus hustler
Mar 14, 2019



I may wind up being the old man on this but if everyone is under 10 and nobody is a particularly proven paddler I would not recommend more than 1 child per 1 adult to start out anyway.

also in general i'm not sure on the fishing side but if you want "boat to hold multiple people and supplies" I feel like a canoe is a much better starting point. I'd go for width and stability and consider keeping the kids on "fight the wind" duty or even consider getting anchors off the bow and stern

https://bendingbranches.com/node/161

I am definitely a "the only tool you have is a canoe, every problem looks canoe shaped" guy for sure but goddamn I just love them

20 Blunts
Jan 21, 2017



I really want to do the Upper Missouri River Breaks. Like realllly bad. Anybody here ever been? I put the stupid Marlon Brando western on the other day and ended up just reading about the Breaks instead of watching that "film."

I have some experience with canoes, and some experience with dispersed camping, but I'm probably not quite ready. Still seems like my dream trip, otherwise my little brother really wants to do Boundary Waters.

I might buy my first kayak here soon, I'm going to the UP in September in what is mostly going to be a hiking trip, but we're going to be on a smallish lake that I might do some practice kayaking on.

HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
Do you have an Air Miles Card?

charity rereg posted:

I don't actually know what "no portage" means but it sounds fun But yes then go nuts and sink the boats with booze IMO

Oh I think it's a Canadian term. It's basically when you have to carry your canoe over land for a bit to get from one lake/river to another. If your camping trip involves a portage then you have to pack a lot lighter.

bus hustler
Mar 14, 2019



HappyHippo posted:

Oh I think it's a Canadian term. It's basically when you have to carry your canoe over land for a bit to get from one lake/river to another. If your camping trip involves a portage then you have to pack a lot lighter.

I meant the opposite, I've never in my life not had massive portages, I mostly canoe in the adirondacks and northeast. We did an uphill 7.5 mile historic portage called the "grand portage" in Quebec. I portaged across an international land border, through a few miles of muck in the heat of mosquito & fly season. We built our own cart out of lumber and pieces of an old golf club carrying cart and wheels from a knee cart. It disassembled and laid flat in the boat, it owned.

In fact I am very likely going to get this as a tattoo at some point, but a variant w/ 2 people carrying that you see all over the trail too

bus hustler fucked around with this message at 16:15 on Jul 24, 2020

prom candy
Dec 16, 2005

Only I may dance

Syano posted:

Hey friends... can I get some help here. My kids and I have fallen in love with bass fishing this year. I have 3 boys all 10 and under. A bass boat really isn't in the cards because ya know they are expensive as hell and also its like impossible to find a boat that fishes more than 2 people. So I am looking into angling Kayaks. I have not yet figured out if I need a couple tandems or if I need 1 for each person or a combination and then I have no clue what brands to even look at. Can anyone shed their wisdom on this?

If you all want to fish at the same time I think you might want a rowboat or even a tin boat with an outboard (I think Americans call them jon boats?) Canoe works too but you're gonna want something really stable with 3 kids all trying to fish. I've done some canoe fishing and I personally don't like it, it's hell on my back.

If it were me I'd buy a nice fishing kayak for myself, a couple of lovely beater yaks for the older boys, and maybe a tandem to take the youngest one out. Actually if it were me I'd drop the whole budget on a sick pedal drive yak for myself and let the kids fish from shore.

HappyHippo
Nov 19, 2003
Do you have an Air Miles Card?

charity rereg posted:

I meant the opposite, I've never in my life not had massive portages, I mostly canoe in the adirondacks and northeast. We did an uphill 7.5 mile historic portage called the "grand portage" in Quebec. I portaged across an international land border, through a few miles of muck in the heat of mosquito & fly season. We built our own cart out of lumber and pieces of an old golf club carrying cart and wheels from a knee cart. It disassembled and laid flat in the boat, it owned.

In fact I am very likely going to get this as a tattoo at some point, but a variant w/ 2 people carrying that you see all over the trail too



Ohhh my bad

Syano
Jul 13, 2005


prom candy posted:

If you all want to fish at the same time I think you might want a rowboat or even a tin boat with an outboard (I think Americans call them jon boats?) Canoe works too but you're gonna want something really stable with 3 kids all trying to fish. I've done some canoe fishing and I personally don't like it, it's hell on my back.

If it were me I'd buy a nice fishing kayak for myself, a couple of lovely beater yaks for the older boys, and maybe a tandem to take the youngest one out. Actually if it were me I'd drop the whole budget on a sick pedal drive yak for myself and let the kids fish from shore.

I think I found some canoes that may work. I did find a jon boat that has 4 fishing seats but its pricey. I am leaning right now toward your advice of getting 3 beaters for the little guys and 1 for me and just staying close to them for the time being on the lake. Now just gotta hope that someone gets something in stock in the next decade

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


20 Blunts posted:

I really want to do the Upper Missouri River Breaks. Like realllly bad. Anybody here ever been? I put the stupid Marlon Brando western on the other day and ended up just reading about the Breaks instead of watching that "film."

I have some experience with canoes, and some experience with dispersed camping, but I'm probably not quite ready. Still seems like my dream trip, otherwise my little brother really wants to do Boundary Waters.

I might buy my first kayak here soon, I'm going to the UP in September in what is mostly going to be a hiking trip, but we're going to be on a smallish lake that I might do some practice kayaking on.

I looked into it for a hunting trip and have a lot of experience on the lower Missouri River. There are a few canoe trip outfitters operating in the summer in the breaks monument.

Season 3 Episodes 4 & 5 of Meateater take place on that stretch of river by canoe. I believe they put in at Judith landing.

Itís not a particularly hard canoe trip other distances between takeouts are like 30 miles in some cases with roads that deteriorate quickly with any rain.

prom candy
Dec 16, 2005

Only I may dance

Syano posted:

I think I found some canoes that may work. I did find a jon boat that has 4 fishing seats but its pricey. I am leaning right now toward your advice of getting 3 beaters for the little guys and 1 for me and just staying close to them for the time being on the lake. Now just gotta hope that someone gets something in stock in the next decade

How old are they? One situation that can lead to tipping your boat is if you're on boat and your kid is on another and they need your help tying a lure or getting unsnagged or something like that. Basically I don't think I'd fish with youngsters anywhere where you're not comfortable with someone going into the water, and I would put as little gear as possible into each of their boats so that if/when somebody tips it's a funny story and not a catastrophe.

Good luck finding some stock though, kayak fishing is awesome. Nothing like hooking a big one and getting pulled around!

20 Blunts
Jan 21, 2017



Flatland Crusoe posted:

I looked into it for a hunting trip and have a lot of experience on the lower Missouri River. There are a few canoe trip outfitters operating in the summer in the breaks monument.

Season 3 Episodes 4 & 5 of Meateater take place on that stretch of river by canoe. I believe they put in at Judith landing.

Itís not a particularly hard canoe trip other distances between takeouts are like 30 miles in some cases with roads that deteriorate quickly with any rain.

Meateater is pretty watchable, I'll check that out!

Yeah so basically you're committed to 2-3 days between putting in and getting out, is what it sounds like.

its all nice on rice
Nov 12, 2006

Sweet, Salty Goodness.



Buglord

Managed to accomplish a kayak camping trip with a day use kayak.


Doing a portage uphill sucks, even with a cart. I'll take the five miles of boating in windy, choppy water over towing a kayak full of gear uphill. Considering just paying the $20 for the portage truck next time.

bus hustler
Mar 14, 2019



if it's not (not sure how its weighted) make sure the cart is under the center of mass, its brutal if its closer to the rear. also may find it easier to push uphill if possible. we did a LOT of walking the canoe on the cart from the back rather than pulling.

its all nice on rice
Nov 12, 2006

Sweet, Salty Goodness.



Buglord

Finding the CG was definitely simpler when it was just an empty kayak. It was definitely too far back to start, but after several adjustments, I made it work. Used the green straps as a harness, and found some sticks to act as trekking poles.
Luckily, I came across another kayaker on the return trip who gave me a pro tip to run another strap from the back of the cart to the front of the canoe to prevent it from sliding back. Made a huge difference. Then again, downhill was much easier.

Liquid Communism
Mar 9, 2004


Out here, everything hurts.




HappyHippo posted:

Oh I think it's a Canadian term. It's basically when you have to carry your canoe over land for a bit to get from one lake/river to another. If your camping trip involves a portage then you have to pack a lot lighter.

One of my constant enemies, as there are still a ton of low head dams on the rivers here, so it's portage every few miles or die. Dragging a pack and a rotomolded kayak up some of the 'takeouts' when the river's low is murder.

Syano
Jul 13, 2005


prom candy posted:

How old are they? One situation that can lead to tipping your boat is if you're on boat and your kid is on another and they need your help tying a lure or getting unsnagged or something like that. Basically I don't think I'd fish with youngsters anywhere where you're not comfortable with someone going into the water, and I would put as little gear as possible into each of their boats so that if/when somebody tips it's a funny story and not a catastrophe.

Good luck finding some stock though, kayak fishing is awesome. Nothing like hooking a big one and getting pulled around!

The oldest will be 11 next month. The littlest is 8. If I go this route I'm thinking we will all stay real close together until they become competent paddlers. Either that or I guess figure out how to spend 20 grand on a jon boat that can hold us all

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


Syano posted:

The oldest will be 11 next month. The littlest is 8. If I go this route I'm thinking we will all stay real close together until they become competent paddlers. Either that or I guess figure out how to spend 20 grand on a jon boat that can hold us all

I donít think with elementary age kids I would be worried about having 1 adult for 2-3 kids in a canoe. I mean by time I was 10 I was running canoes, row boats and pedal boats without direct supervision. The good thing about kids that size is their weight is light enough to put more than the coast guard rating in if you add a seat and go by total weight alone. All of these assumptions also consider that the kids are comfortable around water, can swim and have PFDís.

prom candy
Dec 16, 2005

Only I may dance

Syano posted:

The oldest will be 11 next month. The littlest is 8. If I go this route I'm thinking we will all stay real close together until they become competent paddlers. Either that or I guess figure out how to spend 20 grand on a jon boat that can hold us all

If you guys are just tootling around a small lake that you're comfortable on you might even be able to get away with kids kayaks for them. Our neighbours at the cottage have a couple, I think they're weighted for like 150lbs. Realistically if you've got an 8 year old paddling their own boat you're not gonna be able to cover a ton of water no matter how nice that boat is.

Parallelwoody
Apr 9, 2008



JaneError posted:

Any thoughts/recommendations on inflatable SUPs? I'm in the Midwest near lots of lakes and rivers, intending to use it for casual recreational purposes, so the durability and portability of an inflatable is probably my best bet right now. Budget-wise, probably in the $400-500 range, though I could stretch that. I've seen the iROCKER Nautical and the Gili AIR on a lot of lists but didn't know if anyone had firsthand experience.

I did some research and went with a bluefin for about $550. I found a coupon code that added an electric car pump to inflate it as well for free. It comes with a standard pump, repair kit, "waterproof" phone holder (I wouldn't trust it), kayak seat, backpack to haul everything, and paddle. I've only unpacked it but it seems like it has a good build quality and it was pretty highly rated.

bus hustler
Mar 14, 2019



Flatland Crusoe posted:

I donít think with elementary age kids I would be worried about having 1 adult for 2-3 kids in a canoe. I mean by time I was 10 I was running canoes, row boats and pedal boats without direct supervision. The good thing about kids that size is their weight is light enough to put more than the coast guard rating in if you add a seat and go by total weight alone. All of these assumptions also consider that the kids are comfortable around water, can swim and have PFDís.

Um, by 10 you were doing that because you grew up doing that and learning how. Definitely not the same as a bunch of new kids. But yeah if they're in 1 boat and wearing PFDs and the kids aren't absolute morons it'll be fine.

Something like 93% of fatalities during paddle sports would have been prevented just by wearing a PFD so in calm waters ill admit there's a lot of leeway. It's also pretty warm out so that helps just in case anyone falls in.

One of the reasons for the adult rule is if someone does fall in and gets wet it's impossible to dispatch 1 adult to shore with the wet kid, etc etc.

bus hustler fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jul 25, 2020

Pennywise the Frown
May 10, 2010



Upset Trowel

I finally got a new rack system to replace my Subaru rack that I didn't like. This one lays the kayak flat and is way easier to take the kayak on and off myself. Plus hopefully I won't almost lose it in the wind again. I went the budget route and got the Yakima Evenkeel.

Luvcow
Jul 1, 2007




paddled in a pond yesterday:


and the river today, stopped on blueberry island and waited for the tide to switch:


some friends paddled in, some boated in and i met some new cool people who were in the other side of the island as well. beautiful day.

Ciaphas
Nov 20, 2005

> BEWARE, COWARD




its all nice on rice posted:

Managed to accomplish a kayak camping trip with a day use kayak.


Doing a portage uphill sucks, even with a cart. I'll take the five miles of boating in windy, choppy water over towing a kayak full of gear uphill. Considering just paying the $20 for the portage truck next time.

I like that cart! I haven't gone to a river or similar yet because yeah towing 35-40lbs uphill sounds lame. I guess since mine's inflatable, I could get a big duffel bag, deflate and bag the whole shebang, and backpack it; that'd be easier at least

Ciaphas fucked around with this message at 01:00 on Jul 26, 2020

Syano
Jul 13, 2005


prom candy posted:

If you guys are just tootling around a small lake that you're comfortable on you might even be able to get away with kids kayaks for them. Our neighbours at the cottage have a couple, I think they're weighted for like 150lbs. Realistically if you've got an 8 year old paddling their own boat you're not gonna be able to cover a ton of water no matter how nice that boat is.

I sure appreciate the suggestions. The wife told me this weekend I should just go ahead and get a Jon boat because we would get more use out of it. I sure hope so. One that would hold all of us would be a pretty friggin huge investment. I'm leaning towards the Kayaks.

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prom candy
Dec 16, 2005

Only I may dance

What's your situation? Do you guys have a lake house or would you be driving around to different bodies of water to put in? With a jon boat you need a trailer and a proper boat ramp whereas with kayaks you can put in anywhere. But loading and unloading four kayaks from a car or truck will also be a pain (and that's where lighter smaller kids kayaks would help.)

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