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Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

amenenema posted:

Recommend me a boat post:

Thinking canoe - want to carry my wife and our dog (40lb) plus small cooler and odds-n-ends for river/lake paddles. Priorities would be side to side stability and low weight for hoisting up on top of a Ford Transit Connect (6 foot high roof line). Comfort and maneuverability would be second tier, speed and capability in rough water would be of least concern. Size/type/brand/materials??? Would be a bonus if I could put a little electric motor on it for going upstream and/or days where we just don't want to paddle!

Budget is a pretty important marker. I have a Souris River Quetico 16' and that would check all of your boxes but being a Kevlar ultralight canoe they aren't particularly cheap new.

42lbs, can carry a week's worth of supplies for 2 people, is stable for fishing or stowing a restless passenger and tracks very well.

Edit: I'm not sure I would necessarily want to mount a motor to a Kevlar canoe... You might want to do your own research on that.

Math You fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Aug 5, 2020

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Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
I've got a narrow section of river near me where the current is fast enough to have worn a pretty sizable hole in the ice. I'll have to drag my canoe out there and paddle against the current like a water treadmill (of death) :black101:

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
I personally think paddling is where it's at. I do not enjoy just sitting on a boat and it kills the experience of being out on the water for me. I might be able to fish "more spots" but if I'm not lucky, I at least get to enjoy the feel of my paddle in the water.
I also find I fish better when paddling. I pick up on interesting structure a lot easier at that speed, and definitely cast at a lot more stuff since I don't need to worry about killing (and restarting) a motor. That might explain my success alone, but I'm starting to believe rolling up silent gives you better results too.

All that said.. it's a personal thing and if you're on big water that might change things pretty substantially for you.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
I don't have a single suggestion at to what kayak to get, but I'd say it's not impossible. Just difficult. I've been casually looking at some river touring models and I was able to find a couple retailers that had stock on their websites, and others listed with when their next order was arriving.

My friend managed to buy a used boat from an outfitter that's otherwise closed for COVID. They weren't going to open to sell anyone "a used boat", which usually involves pulling down a bunch of boats and shuttling them to the water to demo. Why would they after all? It's a pain in the rear end for them and they can't really afford to sell off much of their fleet with how difficult it is to source replacements and the demand they are seeing for rentals later this season.

They made an exception for him because he specifically asked for a model from their fleet that's pretty old and from a manufacturer that's dead to boot. It's a great canoe but at this point it looks pretty drab and people are expecting the advertised brands when shelling out for a Kevlar category rental. He also made it clear that he'd give them the money, take the boat and get out of their hair which eased their concerns around COVID.

I would basically write off marketplace, Craigslist, etc at this point. The prices have become too inflated and people are getting dozens of offers.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
I have a single car garage, 3 bikes, lots of shelving and park a car in there so I was in a similar pickle when I came home with my 16.5 foot canoe. Ended up with a suspended sawhorse between my car and garage door.

Inside end hangs from the ceiling with a 2x4, some screw eyes and cord.
Other end can't hang from the ceiling obviously (garage door) so I got a longer piece of 2x4 and a shelf bracket.

Pretty easy to load. Just slip the nose into the sling, then heave the tail up onto the rear support. Could probably put a hinge on the rear plank to make it even easier.

Not sure if that's at all useful since I think kayaks are generally more flexible in the ways you can store them, but thought I'd share because I'm proud of my solution and it makes me feel clever / handy :cheers:

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Whatever you do, don't buy the cheapo orange fox kits. Some of those kits might make your craft legal but I don't want to be stuck unscrewing a lid and purging a bunch of loose safety equipment into my boat in order to bail. I especially don't want to do that in a rescue situation, and then have to throw the piece of poo poo rope that's included.

I got myself a northwater 4-bailer this year and it's an infinite improvement. For one, it doesn't bang around my canoe all day and deafen me on portages. It sits in front of me all day on my thwart immediately usable as a throw bag, bailer or signaling device.
They have other options without the bailer attachment which would probably be useless in a kayak. You're probably better off with a sponge or pump.

Other super important attachments: little bungee loop thingies to lash your paddles together / to your craft

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
The important thing to know is that you are each introducing opposing, but not equal forces. Most people assume you are each paddling on opposite sides so you should mostly go straight. However, you have a lot more leverage in the back and that will cause the canoe to turn away from the side you are paddling on.
For example, if you are paddling on the right side, the canoe will start going left. This goes for front and rear which is why it's important that you paddle on opposite sides to balance those forces out a bit (both paddling on the right will push you pretty hard to the left). Maintaining a nice vertical stroke, keeping the blade of your paddle close to the canoe will reduce this drift. Lots of beginners hold the paddle on an angle causing the blade to enter the water further from the canoe which is going to push you further off course (not sure if this is common language but we have always called it "sweeping" your stroke).

So, assuming you're now both paddling at a nice evenly matched pace with decent technique, your boat will slowly drift opposite your stern paddler. How do you fix that without switching sides? The J Stroke, the pry or simply ruddering a bit at the end of your stroke.
J Stroke would be most proper for just keeping it straight as a pry is more of a turning tool and will slow you down quite a bit, and ruddering will reduce your cadence. The J Stroke and pry are both included in the following video as well as the draw stroke which is another good one.

https://youtu.be/dVUNzKkBE5o

Mini-FAQ:
1. "I'm having to J Stroke a lot. Too much."
-slow down! You're overpowering your partner. You will go faster and expend less energy if you aren't constantly performing corrective strokes.

2. "You lied. The canoe turns opposite my bow paddler!"
- Check your partner's form and make sure they aren't sweeping the water at a distance from the boat. If they are stronger or have a bigger paddle, get them to cool off!

3. "Okay we can sort of go straight. What next?"
- Practice and teach your partner the draw stroke. It's useful at both ends of the boat. Play some with your strokes to get a feel for the how they impact the boat. For example: you might want to sweep your strokes a bit, or even both paddle on the same side to overcome a wind or to initiate a bit of a turn without drawing or prying (which slow you down). Get comfortable with paddling backwards to stop, dock your canoe and manoeuvre in tight areas. Back paddling introduces opposite forces to going forwards so it's good to practice so that you can predict how your course will change when you do it.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
You absolutely can securely mount a kayak or canoe using just the foamies on the roof of your car. I did it for years and if you're doing it properly, it will not go anywhere. I would just get proper blocks designed for the application and not use pool noodles or whatever. Get two 12-14ft straps and loop them through your door frames. Bing Bang boom

That said, a rack is way way better to deal with. The nature of the blocks and the way you need to compress them to get appropriate tension means you will occasionally need to pull over and re-tension everything... Especially if it's wet out.

I recommend bow and stern tie downs, especially on the front of the car. Don't buy straps for these. Just get some 550 paracord and Google how to tie a Trucker's hitch. They sell tie down loops that you screw down onto engine mounts and stick up under your hood, but again you can use some paracord to achieve the same results. Both will save your hood and grille from abrasion. You need 2 tie downs one on each corner of your hood, and 2 cords to properly secure it. V straps aren't really optimal (and are expensive).
I'm speaking from the experience of securing 16-18ft craft where there's a lot of nose and tail sticking out beyond my straps. Someone with a 10ft recreational kayak might be able to get away without them.

Lastly, ratchet straps work fine. You just have to be extremely aware of the leverage you have using them, and how easy it is to crumple your hull. The tension on the strap is the only measure you should use to determine tightness, and not try to get the ratcheting "hand tight". I personally prefer them because cam straps tend to wear out when they tightened down to the same spot over and over and I don't have to reef on anything.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

OSU_Matthew posted:

Oh yeah, I probably should clarify, that’s exactly what I bought. These NRS cam straps with the cushioning around the buckle.

Just to clarify, my thought was to use pool noodles cut and slipped over the rails, so there’s foam to prevent denting and scratching from the aluminum cross bar when I heave the kayak up top and strap it down. But it actually looks like Cargoloc makes velcro and uv resistant foam crossbar pads for 15$, so l’ll just buy those instead.

I also have ratcheting bow and stern tie downs, which I have used with borrowed J hooks before. I’m just worried about the rack itself failing on the freeway since it’s a 40$ amazon cargolock thing and not a proper thule or yakima rack. But those are impossible to find right now, so here’s hoping what I have is good enough!

It’s just new boat and long trip anxiety…. My nightmare scenario is one of the clamps failing and a brand new thousand dollar kayak I had to drive three states over to buy flying off into the freeway.

Knowing the bow and stern tie downs are a good backup solution that’ll let me know if something is wrong and give me a minute to pull off the road is all I wanted to know!

I would honestly prefer to get kayak specific foamies or something than to use cheap crossbars. Will there be more play? Yeah. But I know that the attachment points are not going to fail.

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/customer-reviews/R164T1INR2QAU3/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B00GA2HKAU

Seems unlikely to happen (most reviews are positive or mixed relating to long term durability), but I wouldn't want to risk it..

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

Colonel J posted:

One in the front, one in the back, so 2.

If you're REALLY paranoid you can run a strap around the boat and into your car, you'll get redundancy in case the rack fails. Hope your car stereo is loud though.

Twist the strap to stop the flap! Put two twists in the strap below the hull and above the door frame before tightening down and it will stop the dreaded hum.

Again, ideally you want two straps in the front, as they are meant to prevent the nose from being lifted as well as lateral movement. It's probably only really necessary for longer boats, but it's technically best practice.

I cannot recommend enough that people learn how to tie the truckers' hitch. With a couple bucks worth of cord, you can create perfect length lines for the front and back dependant on the location of your tie down points. It's super flexible and you'll find a million ways to use it when camping if you do that. Best of all, it's dead simple to learn. If you can tie your shoes you can do a truckers' hitch.

https://youtu.be/W86XNUmElP4

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

pseudorandom posted:

Wait, the straps are the things causing the eerie, ghostly whistle/hum? This whole time I was thinking it was the open cargo hatch on the kayak doing that. :aaaaa:

Strap flap is a very distinctive (violent) noise and I find is most prone to happen when you go through the car. If the strap is nice and flush to your boat and bars it's less likely to happen.

Your description sounds different. Watch this and you'll be able to tell in about 5 seconds if that's what you are experiencing.

https://youtu.be/eIFi_jTvo68

That's a pretty good demonstration of how it sounds and how much a simple twist corrects it.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

Nooner posted:

is this a good kayak?

https://www.frugalhotspot.com/2021/03/costco-pelican-mission-100-kayak/

I might go buy a kayak tomorrow but I dont want to buy it if it is a bad one.

What's makes a "good" kayak has a lot to do with what you intend to do with it. Fishing, crossing big lakes or hitting the ocean, going down rivers.. You're going to have multiple hull shapes, lengths and materials that are specialized for those purposes. Inside of those you are going to have more variety with models favouring speed, weight, capacity, stability, durability, attachment points for accessories, etc.

This is a 10 foot recreational kayak. A cottage cruiser. It's not really specialized to do anything but be cheap.
But guess what? You can fish in it. You can cross lakes on it, you can take it down river. Maybe don't hit rapids or take it on the ocean, but you can still do a lot of things with it even if it's not ideal.

To me, it seems like a good start, and it might even fulfill your needs long term depending what you're gonna do with it.

Bonus is it appears to be 40lbs so it'll be nice and easy to get up on your roof. Some of the cheaper ones I've seen have been total pigs. When I worked retail around 10 years ago we had these orange sit on tops I'd give myself a goddamn hernia moving.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

meowmeowmeowmeow posted:

kayaks are fun

What class? It looks really hardcore from the perspective of the photographer! Even a couple sweepers to watch out for there..

Guy upthread, don't do this with your pelican kayak

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
I had a similar issue preventing me from doing a pulley to the ceiling but still managed to store the boat in the garage.
As described in thread previously:

]

I can walk freely under it towards the back of the garage but do need to duck a bit to get under the rear support. Car goes under it. I could probably get a compact SUV under it if I made a couple adjustments. YMMV

Edit: You generally don't want to fully wrap things in tarps if they will be exposed to the elements.. causes condensation. Make sure you're allowing for adequate airflow

Math You fucked around with this message at 23:06 on Jun 28, 2021

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Finally got to do my first proper trip of the year. Day trips are nice and all but there's nothing like slipping out of cell service for a week to help you forget about life's troubles.

Here I am being carried by the canoe



This is me returning the favour


Navigated some pretty cool marsh land featuring floating mud piles of some sort. Not peat, actual mud. :science:



Reaping the rewards

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

HungryMedusa posted:

Just got back from a 3 day trip canoeing in the Boundary Waters. That isn't long, but this was a challenging trip due to low water levels and demon winds. During the trip, I got stuck in mud up to my knees, probably almost dumped canoeing through 3' waves, and had to help a lost teen find her family at the very end of the trip while battling wind, waves, and her instinct to try to grab and therefore tip us - which is legit as hell in that kind of panic situation.

It was super harrowing at first trying to get the teenager to listen to us and calm down. Luckily we (mostly my super patient husband) were able to talk her down, and get her paddling with us to the nearest landing where her family showed up in a half hour or so. The relief was overwhelming; she was a super good kid and did a great job in a terrifying situation. We almost didn't even stop at first because the wind was so loving loud we couldn't hear her calling for help. Luckily we paused to assess weather we heard anything and we were able to back paddle long enough to get within earshot. Scary stuff but great outcome.

The wind was such a bastard yesterday and today, I barely slept last night worrying about it. It died down at maybe 3 or 4 am, but came back by 6; though not as bad as the previous day. We broke camp at 7 to get ahead of the wind ramping up again. Even with that and the mud, I am already thinking about our next trip up there. My body is unhappy about paddling in the wind for two days, and my mind is filled with "what-ifs" about that lost kid and us, but I have been googling spots to go in since I got home a couple hours ago. I This is my 6th trip to the BWCA and the first I felt in any danger at all. The kid being lost, and me almost sinking into mud like the horse in Neverending story reminded me how these trips can go south fast. I am glad we did not try to put our canoe back in in the 2' mud and went the long route home even with the wind.

By some miracle, we had 2 different campsites where we saw 0 people all day. It was worth it just for that break from everything.


Crazy trip! I can relate to the mud and the wind. The first trip I had to solo paddle reminds me a lot of that. Apparently most people who set off that day gave up and the Rangers were watching me with binoculars (and probably taking bets). Got to our first portage and had to contend with a 45 minute scramble through the mud.
It was a pretty miserable trip at the time but is now one of my most memorable and I intend to redo the route one of these years.

So far have not had to rescue anyone.. What caused the teen to get stranded like that? Their boat blow away?

Both scenarios are good reasons for carrying a satellite communicator btw. I got one this season and it's a pretty good feeling knowing that I could notify my loved ones of a delay, or get help if needed. I highly recommend it.

Lastly, I don't think there's many canoe campers ITT. I find the backpacking thread has a lot more interest in these kinds of trip reports.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

HungryMedusa posted:

If you get the chance to go, I highly highly recommend it. It is a really awesome place.

I want to try more kayaking myself; have been down a river and rented a couple on the Minneapolis lakes. We have been waffling over buying a canoe, but renting is so easy and a good kevlar canoe is so spendy!

We used to own an Old Town plastic canoe, but gave it to some guys who took it from Minneapolis to New Orleans on the Mississippi, which seemed like a way cooler end to it than what we could give it. We did take it to the Boundary Waters a couple times, but that thing was heavy as heck so not ideal for long portages.

I bought a canoe in 2020 after renting the last 5 years or so and it's been one of the best decisions I've ever made.
It's probably about 1/4 "paid for" in rental savings already, and made trips so much easier to plan without having to find an outfitter, arrange for pickup, drop off, etc. When I'm using Ontario crown land (which is permitless), I can just load the car and go without any additional costs or scheduling.

I had kind of expected all of the perks when it came to canoe tripping, but it's also been nice to explore local waterways which has really upped my number of days on the water beyond what I had anticipated.

Lastly, it's far lighter, more comfortable to carry, and more structurally sound than any outfitter canoe I've ever used.. and I chose I model I had rented before. The toll patches, paint, skid plates, broken ribs, bent gunnels and cheap yokes take on a boat is pretty significant!

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

Casual Encountess posted:

see im worried about inflatables. i do a LOT of biking and I have specifically set up my bikes to be as failure-resistant as possible so i can be hammered at 1am and still fix most of the problems, so relying on an inflatable item is a big ask for me. also i suppose I could hand pump, but it seems like thats gonna be a lot. I have a full rear end garage to store stuff in so im not too worried about space. i mean honestly carrying 50 pounds on my shoulders a half mile seems fine.

is sit in/on top a taste thing or is it super significant? i'm not a fisher but i love stability and i will be hopefully taking my large dog with me and it looks like the fisher kayaks would be more platform for pup to hang on

You should get a solo canoe or pack boat. They are basically kayaks with a raised freeboard and gunwales making them canoeish, without being so darned big.
This holds three major advantages for you:
1. The canoe hull design means your dog has a tub to sit in/ some freedom to move around. It's a lot easier than getting them to sit ON something, or squeezing them into a seat.
2. Similar to point 1... That room /depth means you could possibly even transport your bike and trailer in the canoe. I'm picturing a wicked bikepack/canoe camping tour now. If you do this successfully I will need to know your trailer setup cuz it sounds sweet!
3. Solo canoes and packboats should have detachable yokes that clamp onto the gunwales (or work with an after market one). Allowing you to carry the canoe to the river comfortably balanced on your shoulders. This is SIGNIFICANTLY more comfortable than hanging it off one shoulder at a time. On a well balanced boat you can more or less carry it hands free this way.

They can be used with both kayak and canoe paddles, though you'd probably want a longer kayak paddle than you'd otherwise use (like a fishing kayak paddle), but that's dependant on the width of the craft.
Edit: pretty nice little video introduction to the concept
https://youtu.be/iQBFDyOJ5Ks

Math You fucked around with this message at 19:45 on Sep 14, 2021

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

ihop posted:

A well-practiced J-stroke is a small pleasure in itself and I am a tiny bit judgemental when I see someone in a canoe with a kayak paddle. Doubly so if they've set the feather at zero, triply so if they're holding the paddle upside down.

It's okay. I judge people who give me the stink-eye for using a kayak paddle in my canoe. Doubly so if they are tandem paddling, triply so if I see them goon stroking.

I'm a single blade fan myself but you have to admit the practicalities of a kayak paddle when solo. I only use mine if I'm tripping with a tandem pair, because frankly that is the only way to hold pace with one, or if I'm putting in a lot of miles. I have tendonitis in my wrists and avoiding flare ups is a pretty big priority for me.
Still make sure to put in practice with my traditional paddle though. It's a much more immersive experience, that's for sure.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

ihop posted:

I don't think I've heard this term before but I'm guessing it's someone who takes 2 strokes on one side, then 2 strokes on the other side to fix the 30-degree course swing, and yeah they're the worst.

A goon stroke is trying to do a J stroke and turning the paddle the wrong way (executing a pry instead). The pry is a very valuable tool but it's not intended for slight corrections and will slow you down significantly.

You typically see people doing it when they are first learning how to do the basic strokes because it feels a bit more natural than the J. Some people spend their whole lives never learning the difference though, because it does ultimately turn the canoe.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Did what will likely be my final canoe camping trip of the year, unless I do something very spontaneously in October.

Went to the southern panhandle of Algonquin Park for the first time and paddled from Kingscote to Scorch.
Each way was about 9km of paddling, 3km of portaging and 400m of trudging the canoe through a rock and log jammed creek in mid calf deep mud.
Well worth it.



Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

its all nice on rice posted:

I'm looking for recommendations on a good canoe paddle. I was originally looking at bent shaft, but we go to Diablo & Ross lakes every year in the northern Cascades, and it can get extremely windy and rough on the water there. A friend and I were very close to capsizing several times last year.
From the research I've done so far, it sounds like a bent shaft isn't great for rough water.
I was looking at the bending branches expedition plus, but reviews seem to be a mixed bag WRT build quality.
Any thoughts? Trying to keep it in the neighborhood of $200-250.

What kind of paddling do you do? So far you've mentioned lakes but the paddle you've picked out is a river paddle with a blade depth that is too shallow to be any good in the rough stuff.

If you're only doing flat water you are probably best off with a beaver or otter tail shape.

I'd just get what you want, and if you are worried about performance in lovely conditions that you should be working to avoid in the first place, then make sure to have a usable straight shaft paddle in the boat as your spare.

I really recommend going to an outfitter and seeing how they feel in your hands. It's a very personal thing and you might be surprised by what actually feels good. There can be some neat surprises too. My favourite paddle was made by some dude related to an outfitter in Algonquin Park and has a unique blade shape that really spoke to me. You'll never find a review of it online though :shrug:

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

its all nice on rice posted:

It's going to be mostly one to three day lake trips for boat in camping. The places we like to go are up in the mountains and tend to get very windy and rough during the day.
We're good at setting out early enough to avoid rough water. There's always a chance we run into it, though, especially if we have to portage from one lake to another or wait for the ranger station to open for permits.

For that kind of tripping I really love my modified otter tail paddle. It's a traditional otter tail shape but flairs up towards the shaft. I find it's nice to splay my fingers over the top of the blade when the going is easy and if you really need to move, you can choke up your grip and put the whole thing in the water.

You could always use a paddle you pointed out but it's mostly designed for river travel where you need to make very powerful steering strokes in what is often not very deep water. They move a lot of water per stroke without needing to be very far below the surface.

As I noted, for lake tripping otter and beaver tail variants are most popular. They are longer and more narrow meaning they penetrate through the more turbulent water at the surface, (supposedly) giving you a better stroke in rough water, and otherwise offer less resistance per stroke. For crossing big lakes it can make a big difference in fatigue.

Edit: pommel shape is another big thing to consider. More river oriented paddles (like the one you pointed out) will have T shaped pommels which offer lots of grip but aren't necessarily comfortable to hold for 10,000 strokes. Lake trippers will often have them designed to rest in your palm. Once I've chosen a shape I usually decide on a paddle by comparing how comfortable they are to grip.

Math You fucked around with this message at 19:23 on May 14, 2022

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Oh.. where you sit can influence your choice as well. If you spend all your time sitting up in the front you should absolutely get a bent shaft paddle because the biggest drawback to them is they are a bit more fiddly for finesse moves that you're most often going to be doing in the back.

Again, I find my modified otter tail does well at both.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Go to the rack attack website and enter your car. It'll tell you exactly what you need to order and for most setups there's no tools required for installation.

If you get something like Thule Evo Wing Bars you should just install them yourself. Even if you have them installed "professionally", you will go through 90 percent of the process the first time you take them off which is something you should be doing if you take a longer trip where the rack isn't required, and the other 10 percent is pretty simple. The "professional" installers might even do something dumb like cut the rubber trim too short causing a whistle.. You know, HYPOTHETICALLY. :airquote:

Seriously though, the first time I put them on I spent 2hrs cursing, then actually read the (half page) instructions and measured carefully and was done in 30 min. I can now put them on in about 5.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
For the front all you need is a bit of cord that you can tie around a couple engine bay mount points. Like 30c of paracord will work just as well as whatever pair of straps you would otherwise buy.

Alternatively you can buy similar straps with eyelets that you bolt to the same points (remove engine bay bolt, put strap over, reinstall bolt).

For the back, having a hitch is a big help and I've never thought too much about it.. I'd think you could similarly tie some cord around the hinges of the trunk.. The latch might work too. Create a loop, put it around the latch and close the trunk. PITA if you need to open it later though!

Edit:
https://youtu.be/kbScWyAUxC4
Like this. As mentioned, you can buy straps purpose made for what the guy does in the video. I tied down some paracord in similar locations.

Math You fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Jun 14, 2022

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

Luvcow posted:

for heavier boats i lay the boat against the roof perpendicular to the car with a towel under it to hopefully prevent scratching and then pick up the rear from the ground and slowly walk it towards the back of the car until its on the top where you can adjust it forward if needed. then i stick my foam pads underneath and pull the towel out, apply the straps etc.

They do also make loading appliances for this method. I'm sure they ain't cheap but they look pretty neat in action. Takes the guesswork out of it if you are really concerned about scratching your vehicle.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
I've definitely seen RVs vertically mount kayaks on hitch racks before. Quick Google shows lots of products for that, as well as a company called yakUPS who does a kayak+bike combo. That's $$$ but so are rooftop tents so maybe it's up your alley.
Probably more shops out there doing it too, but that's what I found inside of 2 minutes.

No experience at all with bike trailers that would have clearance for a watercraft but most kid trailers attach at the axle now. If you're DIYing it, you should be able to get the tow arm and adapter from burley or Thule pretty easily. The Robert Axle Project has a bunch of adapters for connecting these things as well, which are nicer than the extra long skewers provided by the manufacturers.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
One is 16.2' and the other is 16.4'. Seems a tape measure should help you out?

The Penobscot (16.2) also has no rocker meaning the whole thing should lie flat on the ground (which your pics make it seem, but the grass could be obscuring a curve). The other one would be more banana shaped with the ends slightly elevated.

The difference being the one with rocker will turn faster, and the one without should track (hold a straight line) better.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
That is a very unique way of trying to measure the length of something. Are fat people taller than thin people of the same height?
Just end to end in a straight line. You could butt up a piece of wood to each end to give you a flatter surface to measure from.

I'm kind of shocked that the canoe would lose over 2 inches of width. The thwarts are supposed to be there for strength, not to hold the hull's shape.. but 37 years is a long time and given that both thwarts have been removed for God knows how long, I guess it's possible? Hell maybe even likely. I'm no professional.

Is there a reason you *need* to know? If so you might want to bring it by a shop that's been servicing old towns a long time.

Edit: the other clue from your brochures is that one of the canoes is supposed to be flat bottomed. It should be very apparent if you flip it over.

Math You fucked around with this message at 13:35 on Sep 24, 2022

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
It would be incredible if a warden ran him down like "Son of a bitch. You thought you could get away with registering that craft as a Kennebec? It's clearly a 1984 Penobscot!"

As far as restoration I'm not sure you're gonna find much help here. There are tons of niche watercraft forums and even searching their royalex branding from the images took me to a canoe historian forum so they could probably even help you more with an ID.

Good luck and post updates when you have them. Would be nice to see it restored!

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
Wow, nice! Thanks for showing us the process and of course the results. Green canoe with black skid plates is of course the most classy combo.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
I canoe camp, a lot.

Canoe is definitely the way to go based on your location.. unless you are going to be doing the great lakes a lot, but based on your description it sounds like you're going to be more into BWCA?
Just way more room and flexibility, and of course way way easier to portage.

Big question: are you going to run any rapids, or portage everything? Some people like to bump and grind, take shortcuts and beach their canoes.. others like to baby them. Who you are is going to influence the material of choice.

Unless you aspire to do bigger trips than you are letting on you're probably OK to get a 16 footer.
My 16 foot Souris River Quetico is my most prized possession. I can take someone on a week long trip (packing more like backpackers), or my brother and his dog for a long weekend fishing trip. It's also manageable for me to solo paddle when I don't have anyone to trip with me, and to use recreationally without gear.
Taking a canoe out way under loaded can be a frustrating experience especially if it's windy.

That said, the weight capacity of a canoe can vary alot depending on the shape. A 17 foot narrow v shape flatwater cruiser might be good for a 1 week trip, where a 17 foot prospector could take you on a month long expedition.

Anyhow, if you're looking for specific recommendations maybe check what brands outfitters around you sell and check back. As is I'd be inclined to recommend brand like NovaCraft, Swift, Esquif, or Souris River which are all Canadian made and popular in Ontario.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
First of all, you'll need a bailer, throw rope, whistle, etc. I really like the North Water 4 bailer.

Wooden paddles just feel nice. For the stern paddler the blade shape can also make feathering, Canadian strokes and such more enjoyable.

As for how you can "trick out" the canoe.. tension straps like clutch straps would secure your paddles for you. If you're going to be fishing from it definitely get a rod holder (there's 1" rail adapters that should fit on your thwarts, as well as adapters for gunwales).
Lastly there are canoe seats that snap on top and give a bit more cushion + back support. I don't care for them but the Mrs. won't ride without one.

Generally I don't think there's a big addon market for canoes unless you want to throw on a spray deck or something crazy.
Edit: I'd definitely put a yoke on it unless it's like 100lbs and then yeah just cart it

Math You fucked around with this message at 03:21 on May 31, 2023

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
https://wicycle.com/products/bike-trailers/towing-tee

They also sell a cart but you can use any one you want. I've always dreamed of doing this myself, but I'm just not nutty enough so goon speed to you.

Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel
You can put literally any canoe or kayak on a Mazda 3. I probably drove around 15000km with my 16.5 ft ultralight canoe on top of my old Focus and would have been just as comfortable with an 18 footer.

Even now on my van where I have nearly double the bar spacing it's pretty much irrelevant. There's so much boat extending beyond the crossbars either way. Obviously the further the boat extends past the fulcrum the more leverage wind will have to gently caress your poo poo up, which is why the critical piece is having proper tiedowns, especially in the front.
I don't recommend using points under the car either. There's way too much cord involved making it harder to get adequate tension and you don't have control of the placement. By tying some cord to engine mounts on either side closest to your anchor point on the boat, you'll get a much better result.

Also, learn how to tie a trucker hitch. It's really easy and way better than expensive ratchet straps* imo.

*For the tie downs of course, I actually got way oversized strap for securing to the bars since I want to maximize surface area of something touching the boat.

Math You fucked around with this message at 13:10 on Nov 2, 2023

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Math You
Oct 27, 2010

So put your faith
in more than steel

amenenema posted:

A friend who works for Thule says that for the portage kit the front and rear straps are literally only so you have a visual to see if something is going wrong up top - they are not "structural" in any way. All the work is done by the straps going over the boat and under the roof bars.

As such, they recommended attaching the front straps to the hood hinge area on either side and running it up through the front of the boat. Tight enough to not fly all over but not so tight that they're bending underhood stuff. Avoids scratching the nose of the car.

I threw a carbineer on the rear strap connected to the trailer hitch chain safety loop so I can loosen it a touch and pop it off when I need in the hatch.

Errrr that's very bad advice from your friend depending on your craft. For a 12ft white water canoe or recreational kayaks maybe but good luck with a 17ft ultralight canoe and truck wash.

The first part anyway, your actual advice for securing it is good. I use engine mounts on either side and tie very secure trucker hitches. For the front and rear I prefer cord to straps, especially ratchet straps, because it's too easy to over tighten them, they are loud, and obstruct your vision.

Also, it takes just a few minutes with a hacksaw to cut through those Yakima round bars. I reduced my 78s to match the width of my van and use it to carry two canoes. Makes me a lot more comfortable taking long drives with the bars up.. just uh test the setup as best you can and measure twice before you cut

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