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muscles like this!
Jan 17, 2005



TwoPair posted:

My only real what if thing I think about is what if the DC New 52 wasn't such a hot mess? As I understand it, financially the New 52 was a good move (for a while at least) and theoretically a clean break with a complex canon would be an ideal way to draw in to draw in new readers. Except it wasn't a complete reboot because they just let Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison continue their Green Lantern and Batman stories with more or less (definitely more in Morrison's case but still mostly) no changes, and a good portion of the new #1s were clearly written without a reboot in mind at all, or were written from very confusing angles which referenced older stories that supposedly were no longer canon. So like, what if DC let Morrison and Johns finish and let every other writer put a cap on other characters' stories (this would also be fun because it'd let writers go real crazy since there would no longer be a reason to "put toys back in the toybox" for the next writer) before the big break? Would things have ultimately turned out better, or would we more or less be in the same boat as we are now with Rebirth, and DC still going "uhhhh it was Dr. Manhattan's fault but now we're fixing everything back to the way it was!"

That just reminds me of how goddamn terrible the New52 Static Shock #1 was. You know what's helpful for new readers? Including a double of a character in the same scene with none of the characters referencing that fact!

More comic book movie but I wonder how different things would have been if Dougray Scott hadn't had to drop out of X-Men and got to play Wolverine. Jackman was definitely the breakout star of the movie and I don't see the same thing happening with Scott but I think that first one would have probably turned out about the same. The sequels would definitely have been different and there's no way we would have ended up with Wolverine solo movies.

As for Hugh Jackman I wonder if not being Wolverine would have short circuited his action career and he would have stayed more towards musicals and dramas.

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FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



Without Jackman's Wolverine as an anchor? The thing falls apart.

How Wonderful!
Jul 18, 2006


I only have excellent ideas.


WeedlordGoku69 posted:

If this is meant to be Arnold Schwarzenegger, he was already a known quantity in 1986. Not the mega-star he'd become after Terminator 2, granted, but he'd already done Conan the Barbarian, Commando, and the first Terminator by that point and people generally knew who he was.


drrockso20 posted:

And even before those he was still an international celebrity through his bodybuilding achievements

It clearly meant Hansi Hinterseer, who in this reality is a bodybuilder.

El Gallinero Gros
Mar 17, 2010



What if the Image guys never leave to do Image?

What if Stan Lee accepts DC's offer in the late 70's?

What if Jason Todd survives the phone vote?

What if Dave Cockrum never leaves DC to work on X Men?

El Gallinero Gros fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Aug 15, 2020

David D. Davidson
Nov 17, 2012

Orca lady?

El Gallinero Gros posted:

What if Jason Todd survives the phone vote?

I thunk the writer said that if he survived the phone vote they would just kill off hia mother.

Selachian
Oct 9, 2012



David D. Davidson posted:

I thunk the writer said that if he survived the phone vote they would just kill off hia mother.

Yeah. Jason Todd was an incredibly unpopular character; even without the phone vote, I'm sure DC would have gotten rid of him somehow.

How about this: what if there was no Phil Seuling? Would someone else invent the direct market?

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



Selachian posted:

Yeah. Jason Todd was an incredibly unpopular character; even without the phone vote, I'm sure DC would have gotten rid of him somehow.
The loss of his mother leads him to adopt a no-nonsense attitude against crime, waging a one-man war against villains and often coming into direct conflict with Batman.

Though this is teased out in a 6 month miniseries called Hit List which starts with all the hyenas in the Gotham Zoo being poisoned by laughing gas. Then several low-level villains and joker-associates start coming up missing. Jason reportedly receives word that his father is behind the killings, ultimately being abducted and found tortured and comatose. Blaming himself, Batman devotes night and day to solving the mystery. Driven to his limits, he confronts Jason's father, who reveals that he was an out of work actor hired for a bit part. Before he can reveal any more, he is shot with a joker-venom tipped dart.

The climax is Batman and the Joker captured by the mastermind, Jason Todd, revealing his faked coma and injuries were part of a plan to gather the two men who ruined his life -- Joker by killing his mother and denying him a family, Batman for being a false father-figure and leading him to believe that he could find order in this mad world. Taking the name of Orphan, he vows to find his own way. (Note, early editorial wanted him to be The Cuckoo, but that got struck quickly), but he leaves Batman with one last quandry: save the Joker or save the Orphan.

DC toys with offering readers a chance to vote to see who Batman will save (again) but the included numbers just go to two pre-recorded messages left by Jason: one berating "Bruce" for leaving him to die in favor of saving "that maniac" that ruined so many lives; one that calls Batman's crusade into question if his sentimentality and allegiance to his broken family could cause him to violate his ethics. Either way, he pledges that Batman will be seeing him soon, and reminds him to lock the back door to the Batcave...

Ultimately, Orphan becomes Nightwing's arch-villain as the 'true' inheritor of Batman's legacy.

Cassa
Jan 29, 2009


The Cuckoo is a really, really good name for Todd.

Yvonmukluk
Oct 10, 2012

Everything is Sinister



El Gallinero Gros posted:

What if the Image guys never leave to do Image?

What if Stan Lee accepts DC's offer in the late 70's?

What if Jason Todd survives the phone vote?

What if Dave Cockrum never leaves DC to work on X Men?

I think at least some of the Image guys leaving was an inevitability - certainly Lee basically got pushed into it by Marvel's boneheaded decisions, but Liefeld and McFarlane were always going to strike out on their own.

I seem to recall the talk was that if Jason had lived he would have retired from being Robin, and I guess maybe move into a Snapper Carr/Rick Jones type role as someone who sits on the sidelines, of sorts.

Also FilthyImp, your writeups are great, never stop.

Yvonmukluk fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Aug 16, 2020

Wanderer
Nov 5, 2006

our every move is the new tradition


You'd probably need to do something like an editorial/corporate personnel shakeup at some point before the early '90s, so when the artists come to Marvel and object to the terms of the licensing, there's someone at Marvel who both has the empathy to see their position and the stroke to make a different decision go through. Maybe the 1986 sale to New World doesn't go through and Marvel is somewhat less corporate at the time, or Ron Perelman keeps it in his pants and spends less time loving around with junk bonds.

What I'd wonder at that point is if you wouldn't see a bunch of the bigger names on that list getting a McFarlane-style deal to do boutique books for Marvel, or if a few of the Image starter titles end up as Epic books with Marvel editors riding shotgun.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



Cassa posted:

The Cuckoo is a really, really good name for Todd.
So what killed it? Common knowledge states that Editorial didn't want to remind people of the Robin/RedRobin characters from before Crisis, lest the whole Earth-1,2,3 thing rear its ugly head again.

But the real reason was pronunciation. One of the secretaries had a habit of pronouncing it "KUH-koo", while the writers all pronounced it "koo-koo". So they had Jose Garcia Lopez draft up a placeholder hero with a stylized name/logo. They then passed it around and asked how they would pronounce Cuckoo. And the results were pretty varied. The name fell apart after the meeting came to a head with "Well what's the drat catchphrase? Is it "Kooked again?" Or "Kuck'ed Again?".

Everyone broke down laughing and, for better or worse, Orphan won the day.

At least until Morrisson briefly revived it for his All-Star Boy Wonder 3-shot.


Wanderer posted:

What I'd wonder at that point is if you wouldn't see a bunch of the bigger names on that list getting a McFarlane-style deal to do boutique books for Marvel, or if a few of the Image starter titles end up as Epic books with Marvel editors riding shotgun.
I'd hazard we see a Vertigo style imprint pop up that says 80/20 artist revenue split with creator-control.

Wanderer
Nov 5, 2006

our every move is the new tradition


FilthyImp posted:

I'd hazard we see a Vertigo style imprint pop up that says 80/20 artist revenue split with creator-control.

That would actually make a lot of sense. The Sandman was in publication at the time, so while Marvel wasn't in a position to be precisely envious of its success coming off the Claremont/Lee X-Men #1, I'd be surprised if nobody at Marvel at the time had asked why they didn't have a Vertigo-style imprint. Come to think of it, there's a lot of mostly-forgotten Marvel work in the '80s that's just about the same kind of weird as early Vertigo, like some of the Marvel Graphic Novels or Strikeforce: Morituri, but it seems like that all dried up almost immediately once Shooter was out.

Maybe some procession of shenanigans go down that puts Ann Nocenti in as editor-in-chief in 1987 instead of Tom DeFalco.

Claytor
Dec 5, 2011


I just found this thread and it's too good to have died in August.

How different do things shake out if the "Superman 2000" pitch with Grant Morrison, Mark Waid, Mark Millar, and Tom Peyer moves forward? Reading some of the pitch it seems like we would have gotten a Superman-scale "every story happened, every story matters" approach like the one Morrison brought to DC. Maybe his relationship with Millar doesn't turn sour. Maybe Waid and Peyer stick around DC for longer.

The biggest change wouldn't be to DC, but to Marvel, since Morrison wouldn't leave DC to take on New X-Men and Millar wouldn't have taken Ultimate X-Men or The Ultimates.

Yvonmukluk
Oct 10, 2012

Everything is Sinister



Claytor posted:

I just found this thread and it's too good to have died in August.

How different do things shake out if the "Superman 2000" pitch with Grant Morrison, Mark Waid, Mark Millar, and Tom Peyer moves forward? Reading some of the pitch it seems like we would have gotten a Superman-scale "every story happened, every story matters" approach like the one Morrison brought to DC. Maybe his relationship with Millar doesn't turn sour. Maybe Waid and Peyer stick around DC for longer.

The biggest change wouldn't be to DC, but to Marvel, since Morrison wouldn't leave DC to take on New X-Men and Millar wouldn't have taken Ultimate X-Men or The Ultimates.

And that in turn means no MCU as we know it, given the Ultimates were a major inspiration for the MCU.

And I'm glad you revived the thread, because I never got to shine a light on the last of the alternate comic history articles I mentioned in the OP.

bessantj
Jul 27, 2004




What if Miles Morales was created in the 70s, how badly would he be written?

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible





bessantj posted:

What if Miles Morales was created in the 70s, how badly would he be written?

First off, he'd probably have a villain called "Dy-No-Mite!"

Splint Chesthair
Dec 27, 2004



bessantj posted:

What if Miles Morales was created in the 70s, how badly would he be written?

There's a high probability he would have been called "Black Spider." He definitely would have been angry. Like, all the time. But that would have stopped as soon as Peter Parker told him to "get off his high horse" and see that NYC's problems are "bigger than Harlem." In his next appearance he would have been killed by the Punisher by mistake and only mentioned again when Peter needed to feel guilty about something.

Davros1
Jul 19, 2007

You've got to admit, you are kind of implausible





Splint Chesthair posted:

There's a high probability he would have been called "Black Spider."

There's no way he would've been called "Black Spider".


DC already has a character called "Black Spider".

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



Davros1 posted:

There's no way he would've been called "Black Spider".


DC already has a character called "Black Spider".
Spider Boy.

Stan the Man: How do we incorporate an afro into the design?

The SENSATIONAL character creation of 1971 IS HERE!

AN AMAZING clash of TITANS

When

SPIDER MEETS SPIDER

[IMG- SpiderBoy's pointing at Parker]

You there, SPIDER-HONKEY, it's YOUR FAULT Harlem is in the GUTTER!

FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Mar 18, 2021

Yvonmukluk
Oct 10, 2012

Everything is Sinister



What if Miles had been created by Dwayne McDuffie, in a world where the Marvel/Milestone collaboration had gotten off the ground?

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



Man, I don't know enough about 70s black social justice movements to do that justice.

Someone carry this torch:


quote:

Dwayne McDuffie has just been handed the ultimate Catch-22.

He gets Carte Blanche at Marvel Comics. ANY idea, any character he wants to draw into his plots, any artist in the bullpen at his service.

He just has to start with one success.

He is a 14 year old Puerto Rican/African American youth. He's the face of Marvel's bold new initiative to bring urban minorities into the Comics industry, as fans, as creativcreative, characters.

His name is Miles Morales, and he is the new Spider-Man.

bessantj
Jul 27, 2004




It's great how each post paints a darker future.

Yvonmukluk
Oct 10, 2012

Everything is Sinister



bessantj posted:

It's great how each post paints a darker future.

That last one doesn't seem too bad.

Splint Chesthair
Dec 27, 2004



McDuffie wasnít working at Marvel back when Jim Shooter was EIC (I donít think), but one of Shooterís failed initiatives was to replace most of the characters with new versions of them. It isnít hard to see that Miles could have fit right into those plans if they had come to fruition.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



bessantj posted:

It's great how each post paints a darker future.
Man that was not my intent at all.

I was hoping more towards a moonshot style dealie where McDuffie has a herculean task that he pulls off deftly and redefines comics as an inclusionary space for poc, the way that early Marvel pioneered heroes having relatable problems.

In my head, the very rough sketch for this goes that they come up with an idea for more "black" comics and draft up the ridiculously tone-deaf cover idea I joked about -- based on what little knowledge I have about Luke Cage's affectations from that era. The logic is "hey, Spider-Man is kind of our everyman down on his luck so someone from NYC would be likely to see him more than anyone... so if we had a black spider-man..."

McDuffie gets involved somehow and comes back with "well, let's make him bi-racial. Kind of how Peter Parker straddles the experience of young adult and hero, Miles could add a dimension of cross-cultural experiences". From there, the character gets rebuilt from the ground up.

And it ends up with "Hey, if this guy's a hit you can make a whole line... like the X-Men, but for modern urban communities".

Maybe the setup for the larger line happens like this: Galactus returns to earth, but to warn humanity of an impending danger. A Celestial touches down in New York and a battle breaks out between the two. Heroes jump in and help defeat the Celestial, but its death destroys 75% of Central Park.

Rich industrialist Jefferson D. King, the "black kingpin of Paris island", launches a financial and political campaign to create a "bridge burrough" in the location -- a move that draws on the elimination of Seneca Village to establish the park in the first place. The resultant Dakota Burrough begins life amidst a hotpot of controversy and tensions.

Adding to that, the Celestial "Big Bang" event may have triggered a new class of mutates/mutants located in the areas around Dakota. Miles establishes himself as a protector and A-class hero to Dakota, mentoring several new faces in the process.

And maybe it leads to King being responsible for the Bang Babies, not the Celestial...

Wanderer
Nov 5, 2006

our every move is the new tradition


Edit: Never mind, I didn't read the last post closely enough.

Yvonmukluk
Oct 10, 2012

Everything is Sinister



With Onslaught looming upon the creative horizon and the Clone Saga dragging interminably, Marvel was desperate to try and untie the Gordian Knot that had engulfed their most popular character. Casting out to all corners of the company, it was Dwayne McDuffie, fresh off the Milestone/Marvel collaboration that ultimately found a solution.

Needless to say, a lot of fans were angry that Spider-Man apparently died alongside the Avengers & Fantastic Four, especially given the costume implied it was Peter Parker who had made that sacrifice. The release of Spider-Man: Chapter One by John Byrne also muddied the waters, since, much like Heroes Reborn, it featured a reimagined and modernised origin for Peter Parker. The promise of a 'new Spider-Man' also naturally drew fan ire.

The first story arc after Onslaught naturally drew widespread attention. Establishing that a new Spider-Man is on the scene in an ill-fitting costume while the Scarlet Spider watches from the shadows, the reveal that the new Spider-Man is biracial teenager Miles Morales, which naturally caused media attention to focus on the new hero. the following issue established his origin, predating Onslaught, where he is bitten by a genetically-modified spider. However, unlike Peter Parker, he concealed his new powers, only to find himself caught up in the battle with Onslaught where Spider-Man rescues him, and, forming a connection with the hero, offers to - once the battle is won - mentor the young man to become a hero. Wracked with guilt and the sense that he might have somehow helped save Spidey's life if he had stayed and fought, he finally confronts the Scarlet Spider, who is revealed to be a very much alive Peter Parker - it was Ben Reilly, wearing his costume, who had laid down his life. Parker had hung up the costume and allowed the world to believe Reilly was the only Spider-Man, both out of guilt & because with the birth of his daughter May, he doesn't feel he can risk his life any more. He reluctantly begins training Morales, who begins to investigate a new Prowler and his unseen employer, who declares that nothing will deny him vengeance against the real Spider-Man.

Needless to say, many fans and writers alike were divided at the idea that Peter Parker was reduced to a supporting character. However, fans of Reilly had widely praised his at the time final scenes, where he provides much-needed reassurance to Miles before swinging off to meet his destiny.

Morales joins forces with many street-level heroes (Daredevil, Black Cat, Cloak & Dagger and Peter as the Scarlet Spider, and Byrne co-creation Mattie Franklin as Spider-Woman*) to investigate a new Crime-Master, which would culminate in the discovery that the new villainous Prowler was Miles' Uncle Aaron, which would culminate in him sacrificing his life to save him from the Crime-Master, revealed to be Norman Osborn, the architect of the Clone Saga. The arc culminates in old and new Spider-Man teaming up to defeat Osborn, with Morales being the one to strike the final blow and avenge his uncle, including unmasking him to the world.

While Peter Parker would once more take up the mantle of Spider-Man with the advent of Heroes Return (Ben Reilly staying behind to continue as a hero on Counter-Earth), it was decided that rather than stretching the character too thin, Amazing and adjectiveless would be his books, while Morales would continue as Spider-Man in his own right in Spectacular and Web, an arrangement which continues to this day.

Of course, the real long term effect was laying the seeds for the Champions imprint, the success of which would ultimately see McDuffie ascend to the role of editor-in-chief...

How Wonderful!
Jul 18, 2006


I only have excellent ideas.


That actually sounds really good, especially as a resolution to the Ben/Peter thing. I'm wondering who you imagined on art duties? In my head I'm picturing Mike Wieringo.

Yvonmukluk
Oct 10, 2012

Everything is Sinister



How Wonderful! posted:

That actually sounds really good, especially as a resolution to the Ben/Peter thing. I'm wondering who you imagined on art duties? In my head I'm picturing Mike Wieringo.

I didn't actually think of that, but now you said Weiringo I don't think there's anyone better.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



drat, I really want to see what some of that would look like.

And, perversely, a HR era take on Miles by Liefeld

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drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine


Kinda has me wondering what mid 90's versions of Marvel's other more modern characters would be like

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