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wooger posted:What proportion of people who drop that much on a bike do you think will ever do their own re-cabling? It's a great selling point, but some of the fully internal setups are basically only meant for Di2 or eTap, where 2 stiff cable housings each side is almost unworkable. It's the kind of thing that those who pay to have all their work done would have the least empathy for. And bike shops still hesitate to charge hourly instead of flat rate on tough jobs. Heliosicle posted:Is steel really real though? Would be good to try to find one to try out before buying. IME, nice steel makes the most noticeable difference when it's used in a rim brake fork. Nothing is more rigid and harsh than a heavy steel fork. Steel disc forks are somewhat of a compromise, as you need significant extra strength to brace left blade against the braking torque. For steel frames, the feel of it disappears once you get into bigger tire sizes. A small bit of flex under load can feel nice depending on the riding you're doing, and that's one of the more tunable aspects that can be played with by framebuilders.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:31
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wooger posted:It’s because 1x is a terrible idea for the road, and very limiting unless you live somewhere incredibly flat. You will be laughed at. Counterpoint dick wood was amazing with 1x11 54t chainring and 9-39 cassette. Only changed it to 2x11 because I wanted bzzt bzzt electronic shifting. It has more or less the same range now with 54/42 and 9-32 cassette. My cross bike is also real good as a comfy 1x road bike with a 40t chainring and 9-34 cassette. You can get the same range you just have bigger jumps between gears.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:33
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kimbo305 posted:It's a great selling point, but some of the fully internal setups are basically only meant for Di2 or eTap, where 2 stiff cable housings each side is almost unworkable. I really need to have my friend take slo-mo video of my fork and BB twisting in the future. It freaked him out the first time he saw it.
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Jan 19, 2022 17:39
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kimbo305 posted:IME, nice steel makes the most noticeable difference when it's used in a rim brake fork. Nothing is more rigid and harsh than a heavy steel fork. Steel disc forks are somewhat of a compromise, as you need significant extra strength to brace left blade against the braking torque. In the case of that bike (the Strael) it has a carbon fork, so I guess just the flexy frame applies. Not sure if you can answer but how would the feel of the bike compare to say my TCR? I'm thinking it would be more flexy under high load out of the saddle (whereas the TCR has next to no give, which I like in general) but perhaps less side to side flex when pedalling seated (I can really see the seatpost moving sometimes) and with fewer vibrations being transmitted to my feet/backside, which would also be helped by e.g. fitting 32mm tyres on there.
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Jan 19, 2022 20:00
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If you want something that is a little more relaxed but still rides like a road bike and can also fit bigger tires why not get a cross bike?
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Jan 19, 2022 20:54
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e.pilot posted:If you want something that is a little more relaxed but still rides like a road bike and can also fit bigger tires why not get a cross bike? That should be an option as well even if I don’t intend for the bike to ever leave tarmac I suppose. I think 32 tires are the widest I would want.
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Jan 19, 2022 21:06
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MrL_JaKiri posted:Steel is real. I've had one on order for the last 7 months 
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Jan 19, 2022 21:28
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Steel is not going to be ridiculously flexy unless it's designed to be so. I'm assuming the Strael just has more compliance than the TC-R would in a given sprint, but it's not going to be a world of difference unless you're sprinting out of the saddle all of the time.
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Jan 19, 2022 22:25
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Heliosicle posted:In the case of that bike (the Strael) it has a carbon fork, so I guess just the flexy frame applies. Not sure if you can answer but how would the feel of the bike compare to say my TCR? I'm thinking it would be more flexy under high load out of the saddle (whereas the TCR has next to no give, which I like in general) but perhaps less side to side flex when pedalling seated (I can really see the seatpost moving sometimes) and with fewer vibrations being transmitted to my feet/backside, which would also be helped by e.g. fitting 32mm tyres on there. I wouldn't want to guess at the feel for the Strael against your TCR, having never ridden either. > flexy under high load out of the saddle (whereas the TCR has next to no give, which I like in general) If you do like that kind of torsional stiffness, it might be harder to get in a light steel frame. But it is all relative, so no telling which steel frame feels stiff for you and which non-steel frames don't. > side to side flex when pedalling seated (I can really see the seatpost moving sometimes) interesting -- how much seat post are you showing? Does your TCR have one of the proprietary carbon posts? I'm guessing that'd be the thing at fault. The 27.2 circular post on the Strael would let you run some pretty stiff seatposts, with the compromise that lateral stiffness would be matched by fore-aft stiffness, given that it's a cylindrical tube. Unless you went with a Canyon VCLS / Ergon CF3 post. Here's some reasoning about how components stack together for feel / stiffness. https://www.cyclingabout.com/why-impossible-steel-frames-more-comfortable-than-aluminium/ I hesitate to call it data because the aggregate spring rates shown are calculated and not confirmed by measurement. There's no mention in there of how the frame+seatpost combined flex is measured -- are the headtube and rear axle of the frame fixed in a jig? I have been on some very soft steel frames where I wouldn't be surprised if their flex was a substantial fraction of the seatpost flex (especially since older road frames have much less exposed post). The main argument is very sound to me -- you have much more variability in tires than other components, and so they become your main source of flex as you move into larger tires (32mm def counts) and lower pressures. This analysis is confined to flex in the plane of the frame, though. Putting your full body way through the crank into the bottom bracket is a totally different scenario and obviously important to ride feel. wibble posted:I've had one on order for the last 7 months Is your order a frame or whole build?
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Jan 19, 2022 22:39
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RIP
osker fucked around with this message at 00:17 on Jan 20, 2022 |
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Jan 19, 2022 22:59
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e.pilot posted:If you want something that is a little more relaxed but still rides like a road bike and can also fit bigger tires why not get a cross bike? I don’t think I’d want to live with a Inflite or similar for relaxed road riding. Maybe something that’s double duty as a gravel bike but the out and out cross bikes are twitchy and most don’t have any mounts.
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Jan 20, 2022 00:13
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kimbo305 posted:I wouldn't want to guess at the feel for the Strael against your TCR, having never ridden either. Just my idiot two cents: the difference in feel between steel and alloy could be down to their damping effect more so than spring deflection. Damping minor movements through the hysteresis created by the frame material/shape is a big thing in motorbikes. Steel has a much lower harmonic frequency than alloy, which seems to make for a cleaner 'signal' from road surface to the rider. Steel frames are often described as having better rider feel and connection, but making them rigid enough to deal with modern tyre loads also makes them prohibitively heavy. Alloy frames are often overly rigid upon debut, with the manufacturer reducing lateral stiffness later; as teams develop the bike, the raw braking stability and precision offered by a very rigid frame gives way to demands for better feel at steep lean angles and partial loads ie the zone where the rider makes the biggest difference through feel and feedback. An explanation offered for this is that the frame dampens tyre chatter. There have been many notorious and unsuccessful attempts to build a decent CF frame, they usually fail because it's simply too rigid and totally numb of any feedback, the riders just complain endlessly about tyre chatter, numbness and a reluctance to turn. You would think a solution could be found in careful selection of weave pattern and materials, but the millions of euros flushed down the toilet looking for it imply otherwise. Idk exactly how this plays into bicycles, but I've found with my own experiments that older steel frame road bikes exhibit noticeable geometry changes when you really rail into a corner that modern bikes don't, even controlling for tyres and rims by swapping wheels over. I suspect this is mostly down to fork flex though. It also seems like brazed and lugged frames have very different (better imo) behavior than welded steel.
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Jan 20, 2022 00:15
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My steel bike definitely has noticeable flex when I'm really cranking on it, especially in the (steel) fork. It's a trade off I live with for the otherwise great relaxing ride quality and bombproof durability. My old alu/cf road bike chattered like crazy due to its stiffness. Granted tire difference is a part of that, but it also had far less noticeable flex when dropping the hammer. It's trade offs.
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Jan 20, 2022 01:26
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Slavvy posted:Just my idiot two cents: the difference in feel between steel and alloy could be down to their damping effect more so than spring deflection. Damping minor movements through the hysteresis created by the frame material/shape is a big thing in motorbikes. Steel has a much lower harmonic frequency than alloy, which seems to make for a cleaner 'signal' from road surface to the rider. Steel frames are often described as having better rider feel and connection, but making them rigid enough to deal with modern tyre loads also makes them prohibitively heavy. Alloy frames are often overly rigid upon debut, with the manufacturer reducing lateral stiffness later; as teams develop the bike, the raw braking stability and precision offered by a very rigid frame gives way to demands for better feel at steep lean angles and partial loads ie the zone where the rider makes the biggest difference through feel and feedback. Interesting. There is a small overlap in speeds between motos and bikes, so they would get presented with some of the same input frequencies from the road, but motorcycles' weight and presumably much less flexy tires mean how the whole system damps things would be pretty different. And most modern motorcycles are full suspension, right? I'm def one of those people who don't like how wooden carbon feels, even if it does take the buzz out really well.
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Jan 20, 2022 09:24
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HAIL eSATA-n posted:1x is great on road if you're not trying to do both 5mph climbs and 30mph paceline rides You can also not do those things with a 2x and benefit from closer gear ratios and bigger range too, as long as you can cope with the horrifying spectre of a front derailleur ruining your life by sitting there weighing a few grams. I’m not even sure those 1x 12 speed cassettes with dinner plate sized big cogs end up lighter than a 2x. That and you get to choose from cheaper parts and a far wider range of off the shelf road bikes with 2x. e.pilot posted:You can get the same range you just have bigger jumps between gears. You can get close to the same range, but still there’s compromise. And less efficient gearing and a bad chainline. Even a 10t cog is a bad idea from an engineering point of view, to the point that the SRAM pro teams don’t use it. 9t is really a thing? Which cassette brand?
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Jan 20, 2022 09:46
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Actually Moulton bicycles used a 9 tooth gear for their 16 inch wheeled bikes back in the 60s! https://www.singletracks.com/mtb-gear/the-ethirteen-trs-plus-12-speed-cassette-keeps-an-ace-in-the-hole-with-its-9-tooth-cog/ Indeed Shimano made a groupset for small wheeled bikes that featured a 9tooth cassette. https://bike.shimano.com/en-EU/product/component/capreo-f800/CS-HG70-S.html mikemelbrooks fucked around with this message at 10:19 on Jan 20, 2022 |
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Jan 20, 2022 10:10
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kimbo305 posted:I wouldn't want to guess at the feel for the Strael against your TCR, having never ridden either. Yeah I figured a true comparison between frames wouldn't be possible, just trying to get an idea of what you'd expect with carbon vs steel. Like I said I'm not racing and don't intend to, the heaviest load would be a sprint for fun/training, in which case the bike feel doesn't matter too much. I don't really feel like the side to side flex is much of a problem, will try to get a video of it next time I'm on the trainer (and I'm pretty sure it's not the trainer itself moving side to side).  There's a bit more seatpost showing than most bikes due to the frame, but nothing out of the ordinary, and it's not the ISP version. The seat post is very ovalised though, which might lead to the flexing. wibble posted:I've had one on order for the last 7 months That's a bummer, looks like availability would be June/July on the 54R/T and most other frames, hopefully you get yours soon. May 2023 for some frames though 
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Jan 20, 2022 10:17
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wooger posted:I’m not even sure those 1x 12 speed cassettes with dinner plate sized big cogs end up lighter than a 2x. quote:That and you get to choose from cheaper parts and a far wider range of off the shelf road bikes with 2x. quote:You can get close to the same range, but still there’s compromise. less to think about shifting and managing, one lever less chance of throwing the chain off the chainring one less part to set up and tune, an RD is vastly easier to set up than an FD, even with electronic shifting lighter more aero if you really want to split hairs etc quote:And less efficient gearing and a bad chainline. Even a 10t cog is a bad idea from an engineering point of view, to the point that the SRAM pro teams don’t use it. I’ve still got a whole stack of KOMs on dickwood when it was still 1x, and I’ve won plenty of races on my cross bike which is 1x there’s a big time trial effort l’ll be doing on my TT bike at some point this year and it’ll be set up 1x for that as well quote:9t is really a thing? Which cassette brand? https://www.ethirteen.com/collections/all-cassettes SRAM also has a large range of 10t cassettes
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Jan 20, 2022 14:37
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wooger posted:
Campagnolo Ekar is a 1x13 groupset and uses 9t cogs. I’ve ridden 1x12 44x10-52t on extremely fast group rides. It’s fine.
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Jan 20, 2022 14:56
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kimbo305 posted:IME, nice steel makes the most noticeable difference when it's used in a rim brake fork. Nothing is more rigid and harsh than a heavy steel fork. Steel disc forks are somewhat of a compromise, as you need significant extra strength to brace left blade against the braking torque.
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Jan 20, 2022 14:58
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TobinHatesYou posted:I’ve ridden 1x12 44x10-52t on extremely fast group rides. It’s fine. No you didn’t, don’t you know about chain line inefficiency? This is literally impossible.
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Jan 20, 2022 15:15
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If you ride less than 10t cogs an Italian Pantani impersonator comes to your house and beats you to death.
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Jan 20, 2022 15:48
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Literally Lewis Hamilton posted:If you ride less than 10t cogs an Italian Pantani impersonator comes to your house and beats you to death. You could have just said "an Italian"
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Jan 20, 2022 16:07
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e.pilot posted:less to think about shifting and managing, one lever
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Jan 20, 2022 16:46
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1x is great, so is 2x, but here's an additional benefit of 2x in my experience: On a monstercross/burly gravel bike a 2x setup basically gives you a road 1x and a singletrack 1x. On mine I never shift the front derailleur unless I'm switching between those types of riding. Mine is 42/28 with an 11-36 10-speed cassette. So the whole "faffing about with front shifting" is largely moot in this example, and on that type of bike I'm certainly not worried about weight or aero. I really do like having 2x on my road bike, but only because I'm really particular about getting the right effort/cadence ratio and like small jumps on the cassette. Running a compact up front and 11-25 11-speed there. For me the really difficult choice between 1x and 2x would be on a racy gravel bike.
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Jan 20, 2022 17:05
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I have a caad10 in storage back in Tennessee this 2x talk is making me wanna ship it to myself in LA. But really i should just get in better shape so I can climb these freakin SoCal hills without dying
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Jan 20, 2022 17:24
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A MIRACLE posted:I have a caad10 in storage back in Tennessee this 2x talk is making me wanna ship it to myself in LA. But really i should just get in better shape so I can climb these freakin SoCal hills without dying Best way to do that is to ride ur bike
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Jan 20, 2022 17:26
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Eejit posted:Best way to do that is to ride ur bike Just ride bikes
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Jan 20, 2022 17:33
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Presently getting owned by snow and I just want to ride bikes outside. The MTB trails are frozen but the snow is too deep unless I had a fat bike.
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Jan 20, 2022 17:46
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A MIRACLE posted:I have a caad10 in storage back in Tennessee this 2x talk is making me wanna ship it to myself in LA. But really i should just get in better shape so I can climb these freakin SoCal hills without dying Glendora Mountain Road and Angeles Crest awaits you. 
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Jan 20, 2022 19:25
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My boss wants me in Santa Barbara in February, I’m tempted to ride pch there. It’s a hundred miles tho and the most I’ve done since getting back into riding is 30
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Jan 20, 2022 19:54
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I can't believe nobody here is mentioning the virtues of 3x. If a little chainring choice is good, more is better. I run 54/42/28 with a 9-40 cassette and thankfully can both crank myself along at 50mph (on the flats obviously) and climb 14% grades with a full trans-america touring load at 3 mph. The only issue is I go through chains really fast because they drag on the pavement a little when I'm in the little-little combo.
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Jan 20, 2022 19:55
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Anachronist posted:I can't believe nobody here is mentioning the virtues of 3x. If a little chainring choice is good, more is better. I run 54/42/28 with a 9-40 cassette and thankfully can both crank myself along at 50mph (on the flats obviously) and climb 14% grades with a full trans-america touring load at 3 mph. The only issue is I go through chains really fast because they drag on the pavement a little when I'm in the little-little combo. Counterpoint: maintaining and adjusting a triple sucks and nobody should be subjected to it. Also your chain is actually drooping to the pavement? 
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Jan 20, 2022 20:02
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skudmunky posted:Counterpoint: maintaining and adjusting a triple sucks and nobody should be subjected to it. Also your chain is actually drooping to the pavement? Serious question, what sucks about it? I went from a 3x9 to a 1x10 MTB and it is unquestionably better from a usability point of view, but the front derailleur was always set and forget for me, it has barely any moving parts and doesn't need the precision of the RD. I don't think I ever needed to do anything to it besides lubing stuff occasionally whereas I was playing with the RD constantly. I guess adjustment is tricky if you decide to undo the frame clamp and end up with it tilted in relation to the chain but I don't know why you would ever do that anyway. It seems that on an MTB where the spread of gears can be narrow and shifting often happens in a hurry, not to mention ground clearance, 1x is a no-brainer. But on the road I found having lots and lots of ratios really helpful, you've got all the time in the world to set the absolute perfect gear for the grade.
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Jan 20, 2022 20:24
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Isn't the power loss on smaller cogs (less than 11 at least) so bad that some pro team that was forced by sponsor to use cassettes starting with 10 preferred to just have slightly bigger chainrings and effectively one gear less in the back? I recall reading that you get some loss starting with cogs smaller than 14 already.
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Jan 20, 2022 20:30
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skudmunky posted:Counterpoint: maintaining and adjusting a triple sucks and nobody should be subjected to it
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Jan 20, 2022 20:49
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Triples are fine with friction shifters
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Jan 20, 2022 22:54
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skudmunky posted:Counterpoint: maintaining and adjusting a triple sucks and nobody should be subjected to it. Also your chain is actually drooping to the pavement? It was either that or have the 57t capacity RD cage dig into the ground.
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Jan 21, 2022 00:28
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Perhaps you could rent yourself out as a plough.
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Jan 21, 2022 00:50
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A MIRACLE posted:I have a caad10 in storage back in Tennessee this 2x talk is making me wanna ship it to myself in LA. But really i should just get in better shape so I can climb these freakin SoCal hills without dying yes you should but you should also should get your caad10 because hell yeah
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Jan 21, 2022 05:04
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