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feelix
Nov 27, 2016



meowmeowmeowmeow posted:

Source your quotes?

you're the dupee

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kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



As long as carbon frames are laid up by hand on molds, their human cost is gonna be a lot higher than alu. Maybe I'm underestimately how long it takes to finish welding up an alu frame in a jig. Not to say that their margin couldn't be better than aluminum, but you can't send as many cf frames through N molds as fast as alu frames through N jigs.

VelociBacon
Dec 8, 2009



I think it's mostly a matter of how cheap it is to have those hands connected to a Taiwanese worker.

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


Designing a carbon bike and an aluminum bike with the heavily manipulated frame shapes of today are effectively 2 different processes altogether.

Aluminum is an Isotropic material and carbon is an Anisotropic material. What thats means is the material properties of aluminum are the same in every direction and with carbon is very different in each direction and the lay up orientation drives the material properties.

With manufacturing a carbon frame it is just a mold with a predetermined prepreg layup pattern thatís cured in an autoclave.

With aluminum you have to form the tubing to variable shapes and thicknesses, usually with hydroforming or air forming and then the frame pieces are tig welded together in a jig.

The 2 processes share almost no common technology even if the end product looks the same. With carbon the more times they can reuse the mold the cheaper the part will be. With aluminum the cost is somewhat more broken down to each build allowing more size options especially if you can use the same tubing dies and then cut the tubes down.

Flatland Crusoe fucked around with this message at 16:55 on Aug 3, 2020

XIII
Feb 11, 2009



WHOA THERE BUDDY

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


kimbo305 posted:

As long as carbon frames are laid up by hand on molds, their human cost is gonna be a lot higher than alu. Maybe I'm underestimately how long it takes to finish welding up an alu frame in a jig. Not to say that their margin couldn't be better than aluminum, but you can't send as many cf frames through N molds as fast as alu frames through N jigs.

Iím pretty sure the direct labor cost with AL is going to be higher based on the time and skill required to tig weld aluminum. With carbon the layup is a semiskilled task.

The material costs with preprep carbon is going to be higher than Aluminum by quite a bit. And so are the fixed costs of setting up carbon fiber manufacturing.

Spime Wrangler
Feb 23, 2003

Because we can.



On yet another front i hear trek recently started dropping component tiers to squeeze carbon rims into all their carbon-frame builds without changing the price point.

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


Spime Wrangler posted:

On yet another front i hear trek recently started dropping component tiers to squeeze carbon rims into all their carbon-frame builds without changing the price point.

No man itís an XT group, itís got an XT front derailleur.....never mind the non series crank and brakes and Deore shifters, rear derailleur, cassette and chain.....

feelix
Nov 27, 2016



if bike manufacturers weren't capitalist bourgeois coward trash they'd sell completes with Box and Microshift drivetrains

meowmeowmeowmeow
Jan 4, 2017


Does anyone have any sources for these claims? I work in a non-bike part of sporting goods and Asian manufacturing and uhhhh a lot of it contradicts what I've seen.

feelix
Nov 27, 2016



meowmeowmeowmeow posted:

Does anyone have any sources for these claims? I work in a non-bike part of sporting goods and Asian manufacturing and uhhhh a lot of it contradicts what I've seen.

sounds like you're not working hard enough to find wage slaves in different parts of Asia

meowmeowmeowmeow
Jan 4, 2017


Lol

vikingstrike
Sep 23, 2007

whats happening, captain

Has anyone posted recently how much fun mountain bikes are? If not, a friendly reminder.

Nocheez
Sep 5, 2000

Can you spare a little cheddar?


Nap Ghost

I rode the gently caress out of my bike last week, even though it was hot as hell out. It was my work-from-home week and I took full advantage, logging ~60 miles at the Whitewater Center. I did two shorter rides Monday and Wednesday, then pushed out 28.1 to beat my casual roadie brother in Florida who did 28.0 a day earlier.

However, I did have my worst crash in a while by going OTB on the easiest loving trail, the Lake Loop I was 2 miles in to the start of my ride and carving a little s-curve when I caught my front on a root while accidentally holding the front brake lever. I managed to unclip my shoes and do a dive-roll, the bike hitting only both tires as it went over me. I stood up, knew I'd hurt my shoulder but decided I was good enough to keep going. I did 26 more miles and didn't even notice the nasty bruise on my thigh until I bumped the steering wheel getting into the car.

The next day the weather is clear I'm getting back out. I already cleaned all the mud and gunk off the bike, and I'm ready to crash again

Have another pic of it because it was loving BRIGHT out today.

Suburban Dad
Jan 10, 2007


Well what's attached to a leash that it made itself?
The punchline is the way that you've been fuckin' yourself





Nocheez posted:

I already cleaned all the mud and gunk off the bike, and I'm ready to crash again

I know we just changed the thread title but

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



Flatland Crusoe posted:

The 2 processes share almost no common technology even if the end product looks the same. With carbon the more times they can reuse the mold the cheaper the part will be. With aluminum the cost is somewhat more broken down to each build allowing more size options especially if you can use the same tubing dies and then cut the tubes down.

At current bike sales volumes, does either tech run the risk of wearing out a die or mold in the run of a bike?
A popular model in a common size, over a few years of using that frame / geo, will sell what, a few thousand bikes?
Rear triangles will be... 10,000 units?

Flatland Crusoe posted:

I'm pretty sure the direct labor cost with AL is going to be higher based on the time and skill required to tig weld aluminum. With carbon the layup is a semiskilled task.

I can see the hourly pay being higher, but will all welding on a frame come anywhere close to time to lay up the tubes, join the tubes, and finish the frame? I'm assuming most big places are still making their own carbon tubes and not doing monocoque?

I feel like welding a frame is half a day's work, with layup for an FS frame being far more time? Ignoring all bake time in the autoclave, and all downstream assembly, like pivots, shocks, etc.
Maybe I'm grossly underestimating the speed at which they can throw on the layers. At which point, the limiting factor is number of molds and autoclave size.

pinarello dogman
Jun 17, 2013



If you think you're getting ripped off by big bike companies feel free to buy an ICAN or TanTan and let us know how that goes.

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


meowmeowmeowmeow posted:

Does anyone have any sources for these claims? I work in a non-bike part of sporting goods and Asian manufacturing and uhhhh a lot of it contradicts what I've seen.

My cost and labor assumptions are based on cost assumptions I have from US based manufacturing experience outside of cycling. I also realize until youíve worked in the niche manufacturing sectors that the economics can be pretty mind blowing about how much things do or donít cost to make.

I never really considered labor to be a huge cost difference in the AL vs Carbon breakdown. Rather I always thought a lot of it is tied up in the raw material cost of carbon fiber an the intellectual property in the manufacturing processes. If you read enough velonews/bikeradar/bike rumor factory tours you will see noone shows the steps between the initial mold layup and the unfinished frame ready for sanding and paint. There is a lot of art in composite manufacturing with all the inflatable core bladders and final parts joining that no one shows the media. Getting good bonding and uniform resin ratios are pretty huge for composites and they vary greatly by process.

I would guess that if you look at the cost of the raw 7000 series aluminum in a frame versus the prepreg carbon you are talking 5-10 times the material cost for the carbon.

VelociBacon
Dec 8, 2009



kimbo305 posted:

At current bike sales volumes, does either tech run the risk of wearing out a die or mold in the run of a bike?
A popular model in a common size, over a few years of using that frame / geo, will sell what, a few thousand bikes?
Rear triangles will be... 10,000 units?


I can see the hourly pay being higher, but will all welding on a frame come anywhere close to time to lay up the tubes, join the tubes, and finish the frame? I'm assuming most big places are still making their own carbon tubes and not doing monocoque?

I feel like welding a frame is half a day's work, with layup for an FS frame being far more time? Ignoring all bake time in the autoclave, and all downstream assembly, like pivots, shocks, etc.
Maybe I'm grossly underestimating the speed at which they can throw on the layers. At which point, the limiting factor is number of molds and autoclave size.

I got a tour of the Intense factory in the 00's and I think they said their (master) welders did a couple frames a day. I suspect with companies like Giant it's not done by hand so it probably takes 30 min of welding per bike there.

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


kimbo305 posted:

At current bike sales volumes, does either tech run the risk of wearing out a die or mold in the run of a bike?
A popular model in a common size, over a few years of using that frame / geo, will sell what, a few thousand bikes?
Rear triangles will be... 10,000 units?


I can see the hourly pay being higher, but will all welding on a frame come anywhere close to time to lay up the tubes, join the tubes, and finish the frame? I'm assuming most big places are still making their own carbon tubes and not doing monocoque?

I feel like welding a frame is half a day's work, with layup for an FS frame being far more time? Ignoring all bake time in the autoclave, and all downstream assembly, like pivots, shocks, etc.
Maybe I'm grossly underestimating the speed at which they can throw on the layers. At which point, the limiting factor is number of molds and autoclave size.

Iím not aware of any reason the molds would wear out especially given low volume of production. The cure temps arenít that high, like 250-400f as far as Iím aware. They have always been unfinished aluminum whenever Iíve seen pictures. Itís not like a closed die forging mold that wears out daily.

Lay ups should be pretty fast with standard work charts. If One person does all the 56cm frame bottom brackets for a week straight with laser cut pieces pre-sorted they will be very fast, like done in minutes fast.

meowmeowmeowmeow
Jan 4, 2017


Yeah so again I don't work in the bike industry and only have a passing familiarity with Asian composites manufacturing from a project or two, but what I do know is as follows:

Almost all (pretty sure all but not 100% on the claim) of bike manufacturing in Asia is contract (taiwan and xiamen china for bike/carbon). You bring a design to the factory, they make it. Trek, Spesh, SC, etc. are all made side by side on the factory floor. If its a new manufacturing technique, the brand may develop and transfer the process to the factory but generally don't own any of the production process. Often times this is why the don't show you the full process in a video as the factory owns the process and doesn't want it to get out.


Most aluminum tube is from a catalog, most manufacturers are not specifying custom tube unless they absolutely have to. Some parts are cast, generally around the BB/linkage area, and some of the intersections of tubes like parts of the rear triangle or dropout area, so tooling investment in the tubes is pretty low. Cast parts are super cheap in asia, we actually cast a bunch of aluminum molds for rubber or foam compression molding off of a silicone (with intermediate plaster step) master for the majority of our simple molds.

Aluminum is easier to manufacture because you can automated the vast majority of it for very cheap and easy. Tube mitering is your biggest driver in fit up and can be fully automated in a way that is very quick and repeatable. Frame jigs can positively contain parts as they are being welded, and overall seam length on a frame is pretty short. Aluminum welding is not trivial but is a old enough process that its well understood and process control is pretty easy. Aluminum frames are generally bent straight after heat treating, so you have a larger tolerance window during manufacturing.


Carbon is super labor intensive. Most of the plies are laid up in the mold or on mold knock-outs, not laid up flat and dropped in as a full ply stack. Almost if not all bikes are monocoque and don't use pre-rolled tube, so your lay-up means a mold is tied up not baking, so you pay for extra molds as well. Most of the time goes into getting good corner fill, no weave deformation, sometimes doing a de-bulk cycle where you put the mold half in a vac bag and pull vacuum to press the carbon into corners so it moulds right. Its not technically hard work, but requires attention to detail some level of interpretation that isn't as common in welding/other processes. Most plies are oversized, laid into the mold, and then trimmed in place.Sometimes stuff gets laid up on the core or knock-out, then the core is dropped into the mold to bond to plies that were laid into the main tool cavity. Getting good packing between layers and getting the mould to close and your two halves to join is all detail work and detail work is loving expensive in china because it usually comes from a good enough QC process to link defects to lack of detail and fix the problem.

And even after all the layup, autoclave is time consuming and process control is super important to get good parts. Temp ramps, bladder pressure ramps, etc are critical for good moulding and process control in Asia can be incredibly frustrating to work through. Poor autoclave control will scrap a very expensive part with no chance to re-work, which also drives up cost. If you only find errors at the end, even a low scrap rate sucks when you are scrapping finished components instead of sub-assemblies or in progress work.

And yeah carbon + epoxy is way more expensive than aluminum as far as raw materials go.

kimbo305
Jun 9, 2007

He is I, and I am him



VelociBacon posted:

I got a tour of the Intense factory in the 00's and I think they said their (master) welders did a couple frames a day. I suspect with companies like Giant it's not done by hand so it probably takes 30 min of welding per bike there.

I'm not aware of any bike frame manufacture being substantially mechanized. I thought every weld joining tubes was done by a human.

meowmeowmeowmeow posted:

Most aluminum tube is from a catalog, most manufacturers are not specifying custom tube unless they absolutely have to. Some parts are cast, generally around the BB/linkage area, and some of the intersections of tubes like parts of the rear triangle or dropout area, so tooling investment in the tubes is pretty low.

If you need to hydroform, does that require another step in the supply chain, or does the tube supplier do it?

quote:

Almost if not all bikes are monocoque and don't use pre-rolled tube,

Is that true? I thought LuescherTechnik was showing most cut frames as assembled from baked tubes.

quote:

so your lay-up means a mold is tied up not baking, so you pay for extra molds as well.
How does pricing work on these? Do you pay the cf factory?

meowmeowmeowmeow
Jan 4, 2017


kimbo305 posted:

I'm not aware of any bike frame manufacture being substantially mechanized. I thought every weld joining tubes was done by a human.

Yeah forgot to mention, due to mix of designs almost certainly not mechanized. Might be an exception for massive companies like Giant or for frames that will be the same for many seasons and do massive volume, but in my experience robot control and programming is loving dirty expensive and requires a huge amount of dial in even after offline programming. Way easier to run three shifts of human labor.

Also you probably need two robots to do it right, the group OtherLab did a cool project on fully automated bike manufacturing using two robots collaborating but that seemed like more of a tech demo from some very smart people than the future of manufacturing.

quote:

If you need to hydroform, does that require another step in the supply chain, or does the tube supplier do it?

Yeah tube supplier would do it and deliver bent/shaped tubes for the factory to miter and assembly (I assume). The tube supplier might even only do the forming and buy basic tube from another company.

quote:

Is that true? I thought LuescherTechnik was showing most cut frames as assembled from baked tubes.

I don't know who this is, and it might be different for road bikes, but everything I've ever seen for MTB is frames get assembled from flats. Sometimes they're wrap a main tube core (like the downtube core) with carbon and drop that into the mold, but I think it all starts as flat sheet.

quote:

How does pricing work on these? Do you pay the cf factory?

Yeah depending on the design complexity (this is all pulling from my experience in a different part of the industry) you either send a finished frame design and the factory does mould design, or you send frame and key mould designs over and they do the rest. Typically the factory will have an in-house or partnered mould shop that'll do the production and handle all the tolerances and functional requirements of the mould. Based on volume planning, max monthly production, etc they'll figure out the number of production molds you need after you finish development, and the cost of the development and production molds gets amortized across the confirmed volume of the order. So sometimes you can only confirm 2 seasons of volume but you'll use the molds for 3-4, so you see a higher cost initially until the amortization drops off your frame cost but thats more accounting poo poo than manufacturing realities.


This is not asia production at all, its low volume euro but shows what goes into carbon frame layup.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd9kiTEFzxE

meowmeowmeowmeow fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Aug 3, 2020

Flatland Crusoe
Jan 12, 2011

Great White Hunter
Master Race

Let me explain why I'm better than you


kimbo305 posted:

I'm not aware of any bike frame manufacture being substantially mechanized. I thought every weld joining tubes was done by a human.

I would guess your cheaper bikes produced in Walmart quantities are probably pretty automated and likely robotically welded. The combination of thicker wall tubes, almost no sizing variation and huge total production numbers would make it the most worth while business case.

The opposite side of that is probably something like a specialized chisel or cannondale caad13 with low production quantities and very thin wall tube with lots of manipulation.

Whether you automate a manufacturing process or not is the simple math of the capex payback to the labor rates and production volume. I know what an integrated robot cell costs for a given process and then I know my total cost for a line worker. If I can offset the labor cost in a predetermined period (often 2 years or less) we automate the job.

evil_bunnY
Apr 2, 2003



kimbo305 posted:

At current bike sales volumes, does either tech run the risk of wearing out a die or mold in the run of a bike?
Carbon molds don't get "used up" IIRC

Tenacious J
Nov 20, 2002



Hey I'm new to MBs and have a few newbie questions. I picked up a bike this spring and have been getting addicted to it. I was kinda uneasy even taking sharp corners on flat pavement at first, but now I'm ripping around comfortably. I've been spending most of my time on gravel/dirt multi-use paths around my city and exploring some of the bigger hills and valleys. There are a lot of narrow and twisty bike paths off the sides of these trails but they look stupidly steep and full of roots to me. I see MBs on them sometimes though and they're clearly made for (or by) bikes. I live in a huge valley so pretty much all of these paths are heading up or down a massive hill full of trees and bushes. I want to start using this bike for more exciting things than exploring/peddling down a path and I guess that means learning how to ride those trails.

I know it's hard to answer but is there any advice on the 'progression' or something towards riding tracks like I described? I'll probably go try a few this week - which leads to the most embarrassing question but it's not a problem to just go really slow in a low gear right?

Suburban Dad
Jan 10, 2007


Well what's attached to a leash that it made itself?
The punchline is the way that you've been fuckin' yourself





Just go ride. Anything that looks sketchy, just walk it if you're not ready for it. Watch YouTube videos and read the book Mastering Mountain Bike Skills or come back and ask the thread about specifics. Nothing wrong with going slow as long as you let people pass.

evil_bunnY
Apr 2, 2003



On the topic of bike manufacturing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QXtZkQAvTg

vikingstrike
Sep 23, 2007

whats happening, captain

Tenacious J posted:

Hey I'm new to MBs and have a few newbie questions. I picked up a bike this spring and have been getting addicted to it. I was kinda uneasy even taking sharp corners on flat pavement at first, but now I'm ripping around comfortably. I've been spending most of my time on gravel/dirt multi-use paths around my city and exploring some of the bigger hills and valleys. There are a lot of narrow and twisty bike paths off the sides of these trails but they look stupidly steep and full of roots to me. I see MBs on them sometimes though and they're clearly made for (or by) bikes. I live in a huge valley so pretty much all of these paths are heading up or down a massive hill full of trees and bushes. I want to start using this bike for more exciting things than exploring/peddling down a path and I guess that means learning how to ride those trails.

I know it's hard to answer but is there any advice on the 'progression' or something towards riding tracks like I described? I'll probably go try a few this week - which leads to the most embarrassing question but it's not a problem to just go really slow in a low gear right?

If you've been spending most of your time on gravel/dirt paths around town, I'd recommend using a website like TrailForks or MTB Project to research what other riders in your area have marked as trails. You may find that some of the trails you are currently riding are listed as "Green" (beginner) trails. Look to see if there are any nearby Blue/intermediate trails and see how it goes. It may even give you information on the paths you mention.

If you don't feel comfortable with a feature on the trail, just walk. There's no issue with going slow, or using an easier gear, but you will find that some things on MTB trails become easier with a little bit of speed because it gives your suspension less opportunity to get stuck. Similarly, you'll also find pushing a slightly harder gear than you think might be right can be helpful to get some torque through features on the trail.

It can be hard during covid, but following other people that are better than you can be extremely helpful too. They will be good at showing you lines through terrain you may not see when you're starting out.

Some general recommendations:
- Don't tense up, try to be loose and let the bike move around.
- Look down the trail, not at your front wheel. If you're nervous about something popping up on the trail, the best thing to do is to see it as early as possible and to start preparing for it. Target fixation on the MTB is a thing and if you stare at what you're trying to avoid, you'll head toward it. Look down and where you want to go.
- Keep your weight centered on the bike, not too forward or back. There are times when you'll need to shift your weight around (like descending over steeper terrain you want to shift your weight back) though.
- Watch a video on cornering and practice it. Everyone struggles at this and you can always get better.
- Wear gloves. You will go down at some point and it'll save your palms. If you think you'd feel more comfortable with knee pads, there are lightweight ones that might work for you.
- It's really easy to just walk things you can't do, but there can be real value in stopping, reading lines, and seeing if you can work on smaller pieces and build up. Sessioning stuff isn't the funnest thing, but it helps progression.

Ask the thread about things that come up. MTBing is lots of fun!

Tenacious J
Nov 20, 2002



Thanks! That's great advice, I'll check those website for good trails.

marshalljim
Mar 6, 2013

yospos


Here's a good YouTube playlist for beginner mtb skills stuff. They're still adding new videos to it, too.

spwrozek
Sep 4, 2006

Sail when it's windy



marshalljim posted:

Here's a good YouTube playlist for beginner mtb skills stuff. They're still adding new videos to it, too.

Agreed Kyle is good. I have learned a lot. Now only if I could put it into practice!

vikingstrike
Sep 23, 2007

whats happening, captain

Also, agree. I think Kyle and April do a nice job with their tutorial videos.

bamhand
Apr 15, 2010


My family is looking to do some hiking around the Pisgah region around Labor Day. Any recommendations for vacation home rentals and trails to do? Looking for places that will house about 6 people. I'm the only one that bikes out of everyone but I'm REALLY bad. What are some beginner friendly trails?

Nocheez
Sep 5, 2000

Can you spare a little cheddar?


Nap Ghost

bamhand posted:

My family is looking to do some hiking around the Pisgah region around Labor Day. Any recommendations for vacation home rentals and trails to do? Looking for places that will house about 6 people. I'm the only one that bikes out of everyone but I'm REALLY bad. What are some beginner friendly trails?

Dupont is pretty newbie friendly, there's nothing too extreme if you follow the main trails. I stayed in Brevard over Christmas this past year and it was wonderful. Even though I was just a few miles from the trailhead, it still took a good 25-30 minutes to drive there because of how remote some places can be.

Sadi
Jan 18, 2005
SC - Where there are more rednecks than people

bamhand posted:

My family is looking to do some hiking around the Pisgah region around Labor Day. Any recommendations for vacation home rentals and trails to do? Looking for places that will house about 6 people. I'm the only one that bikes out of everyone but I'm REALLY bad. What are some beginner friendly trails?

Hikes to do in the region:
Grave yard fields, add in black balsam, and sams knob or some others over there if you want more distance.
Max patch (hour drive)
Mount Mitchel (can drive to the top or hike to the top, probably hour and a half drive)
Explore green river game lands for some swimmable holes and waterfalls.
Shining rock
Mount Pisgah (short hike, most prominent peak near Pisgah)
If you want a ton of water falls in a short loop with poorly marked trails but easy trails, check out Panther Town Valley. Its also an hour drive.

Vacation home rentals may be tough due to the Rona. Im afraid I dont know of any one renting off the top of my head.

And yeah per the previous poster, Dupont is awesome for beginner skill level and fun at all skill levels. If your renting and there is a brand you want to rent, let me know and ill tell you if I know a shop that rents them in boulevard.

While you're there get beer at Sidways Farms, Oscar Blues, Up Country, and Ecusta. Eat at Square Root. If you like bike shops Hub is cool to check out though last time I was over there (last month) they weren't supper jazzed on having people in the store and they weren't serving beer.

Sadi fucked around with this message at 11:53 on Aug 6, 2020

bamhand
Apr 15, 2010


Awesome, thanks for all the suggestions! So would Brevard be my best bet for where to stay? VRBO has a good amount of listings around there and around Rosman.

Sadi
Jan 18, 2005
SC - Where there are more rednecks than people

Just depends on what your goals are. Brevard is really good for a cute small town with excellent access to pisgah and dupont. If you want cheaper but similar access look more towards Etowah and Hendersonville (further away but probably cheaper). If you want more shopping and city stuff, look at Asheville. Asheville will be significantly more expensive I think, and its about a 40min drive from pisgah. I dont know Rosma very well and hardly ever go that far south on 64 but it is close to Lake Jocassee which is a gem (can boat camp, and kayak or boat up to water falls that dump into the lake. super clear water). Rosman is also closer to Panther Town. That said I imagine it has less shops, restaurants, and breweries than Brevard if that matters to you.

bamhand
Apr 15, 2010


We're mainly looking at staying in and cooking with maybe the occasional takeout so town amenities don't matter too much for us. That lake bit is really good to know. Thanks again for all the info!

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Nocheez
Sep 5, 2000

Can you spare a little cheddar?


Nap Ghost

26 Scenic Site Dr, Pisgah Forest, NC 28768 is the address of the place I stayed. It was very remote, took 20 minutes to get to town but the views were gorgeous!

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