Siivola posted:That's fascinating, thanks! I might have to take a peek at Child's work since I'd love to get into early music like that. Thank you so much for this post! The costuming was the biggest detail that I had absolutely no idea how to explicate, because I don't know enough of the terminology to know the appropriate search terms to even educate myself; I recognized Pyle was giving everybody pointy shoes and that's about it. Please chip in with comments on other costumes as we move forward, and anyone else too. I hadn't realized Pyle was mixing eras like that, but i did notice that he has David and the Palmer standing in a classic stage pose, each of them "cheating" about one-third open towards the audience, so it looks like they're facing each other but you get a clearer view of each of them. Pyle is really *explicitly* staging this book like a Robin Hood play. If want to do a deep dive on Pyle's costuming, there are a ton of articles about how much Howard Pyle's Book of Pirates ended up influencing Hollywood notions of pirates: The funny thing is, most of the articles I'm finding are saying "these outfits are totally unrealistic and impractical" but what I've read from actual period accounts indicates that Pyle was actually surprisingly accurate, because pirate captains tended to dress really extravagantly from captured goods: quote:Above all they were distinguished by their clothes. In the early years of the eighteenth century most landsmen wore long coats and long waistcoats over knee breeches and stockings. Seamen on the other hand wore short blue jackets, over a checked shirt, and either long canvas trousers or baggy “petticoat breeches,” which somewhat resembled culottes. In addition, they frequently wore red waistcoats, and tied a scarf or handkerchief loosely around the neck.20 (quoted from David Cordingly's Under the Black Flag) Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Aug 8, 2020 |
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# ? Aug 8, 2020 00:36 |
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 20:28 |
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Dareon posted:The evolution of language is a pet subject of mine, and reading through this it's interesting to note things like "an" and "gin" which have all fallen under the umbrella of "if" these days. "Lusty" and "humming" are also adjectives that no longer apply to the subjects they're attached to. Well, lusty can be attached to a man, but not in the sense that is meant here, and I honestly have no idea what is meant by humming ale. I always thought that it was an ale that made your head hum; a reference to the glow of mild inebriation. Reading up on medieval brewing, I found out something else interesting. Ales (from barley) were made regularly and had to be served within a few days, or they'd go bad; beer (barley with hops) lasted longer. "In 1333--34, the household of Elizabeth de Burgh, Lady of Clare, brewed about 8 quarters of barley and dredge each week, each quarter yielding about 60 gallons of ale. Brewing varied by the season of the year, with vast amounts produced in December (when more than 3,500 gallons were brewed) and quite restricted production in February (only 810 gallons). The members of the Clare household drank strong ale throughout the year, imbibing with particular gusto during the celebrations of Christmas and the New Year. " I wish "lustily" was still used in that context; the closest you get is a "lust for life."
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# ? Aug 8, 2020 01:22 |
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Dareon posted:I honestly have no idea what is meant by humming ale. Like getting buzzed.
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# ? Aug 8, 2020 01:47 |
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Cobalt-60 posted:I always thought that it was an ale that made your head hum; a reference to the glow of mild inebriation. Makes sense, I'd forgotten that beer was rather more like a vaguely-alcoholic soup that you drank for preference because water generally wasn't safe. You'd even give it to kids. At least in the 15th century. The bit about palmers (And also the hat with the shell) is interesting. You want to go on a pilgrimage to prove your piety, but with the lack of long-distance communication options, for all your neighbors know you could have just gone three towns over and spent a couple months drinking and whoring. Solution: Bring back souvenirs.
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# ? Aug 8, 2020 04:20 |
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And so they called him no more "thy sly Will Stutely". "Good! Stupid nickname anyway, don't know what I was thinking when I came up with that one", Will Stutely would say, and bang his fist on the nearest hard object for emphasis.
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# ? Aug 8, 2020 06:56 |
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Dareon posted:Makes sense, I'd forgotten that beer was rather more like a vaguely-alcoholic soup that you drank for preference because water generally wasn't safe. You'd even give it to kids. At least in the 15th century. After 1400 or so beer had settled in to the combo of water, yeast, malt and, increasingly but not always, hops that we still drink today.
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# ? Aug 8, 2020 07:25 |
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That was where I got the info, yeah. I'm not like, an expert. On anything. I just have thousands of factoids that may or may not be inaccurate, outdated, or outright fabricated.
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# ? Aug 8, 2020 07:37 |
Siivola posted:Have you by any chance been playing Kingdom Come lately? Soupy beer that you need to drink with a straw is an ancient Egyptian thing, and that game is the only instance I know of that getting associated with the Middle Ages. Technically, Pyle is setting this in the 1100's though! (even if all his references and set details are from the era of the ballads, that is, 1400 to 1700 or so). So there might be room for both of you to be correct. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Aug 8, 2020 |
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# ? Aug 8, 2020 15:27 |
I find it kind of interesting how most of the encounters between the Merry Men and anyone else go: "Ho there, stout fellow! I like the cut of your jib, let's try to bash each other's skulls with quarterstaffs!" Was there an action scene quota for the ballads or something? I understand it's heavily idealized but whenever two men meet it's always a)drinking, b)singing, c)fighting, d)all of the above. Being a children's book from the 1880s, I'm kind of surprised it lacks a didactic message. anilEhilated fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Aug 9, 2020 |
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# ? Aug 9, 2020 17:57 |
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"An I not supply but one swordfyght, the goode folke shall bedeck me with cabbage."
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# ? Aug 9, 2020 18:11 |
anilEhilated posted:I find it kind of interesting how most of the encounters between the Merry Men and anyone else go: "Ho there, stout fellow! I like the cut of your jib, let's try to bash each other's skulls with quarterstaffs!" This is a perfect segue into the next section! My guess is that one part of your question answers the other. Relative to this version, the ballads are a lot more violent -- the best example being Robin Hood's Progress to Nottingham where Robin straight up murders fifteen cops just because they tried to cheat him on a bet. Literally everyone fights everyone else all the time, etc. Most of these ballads are known primarily from "broadside" cheaply printed versions, and yeah, "if it bleeds it leads" was a thing even then is my guess. So I think Pyle is adding some moralizing here by constantly emphasizing Robin's relative nonviolence. Robin only shoots the forester in self-defense; he avoids sending his men into violent conflict unless forced into it; his preferred melee weapon is a quarterstaff instead of a sword. (Part of me wonders if this emphasis derives in part from Pyle's Quaker upbringing). I think Pyle's trying to balance credible scholarship -- presenting a version that tracks reasonably closely with the actual ballad sources -- while also presenting a relatively moral work he'd see as suitable for children. That said -- Up till now, the story has in a sense been mostly exposition -- setting up Robin's background, the establishment of the Merry Men, and the primary driving conflict between Robin and the Sheriff. The next story, "Robin Hood and the Butcher," is our first just "here's a Robin Hood story" set piece, and we'll see that Pyle makes some more significant changes than he has to prior stories. This one is based on Child Ballad 122, "Robin Hood and the Butcher," which exists in two versions, "A" and "B." As far as I can tell (could be wrong) both versions are dated to somewhere between 1600 and 1700, though "A" is thought to be the older of the twain; both can be considered newer versions of "Robin Hood and the Potter", Child 121, one of the five oldest known Robin Hood ballads, which dates back to the 1490's (and which Pyle does not adapt). quote:NOW AFTER all these things had happened, and it became known to Robin Hood how the Sheriff had tried three times to make him captive, he said to himself, "If I have the chance, I will make our worshipful Sheriff pay right well for that which he hath done to me. Maybe I may bring him some time into Sherwood Forest and have him to a right merry feast with us." For when Robin Hood caught a baron or a squire, or a fat abbot or bishop, he brought them to the greenwood tree and feasted them before he lightened their purses. Pyle follows the text of "Butcher B" here, which is important because in Potter and in "Butcher A" Robin 1) fights the merchant 2) loses (as is traditional when Robin fights someone who isn't rich), 3) makes a deal after the fight. So Pyle is still sticking pretty closely to the ballad sources here, but all three versions were in Child's, so Pyle has chosen the one that was least violent and friendliest. As elsewhere, he's also added some pro-Saxon verbiage, and a sharp little in-character jest about "few call me honest." One bit of interesting analysis in J.C. Holt's Robin Hood is looking at the various "merchant meets Robin Hood" stories is thinking about who was the audience for these ballads? Holt's answer is that the audience was probably the rising merchant "yoeman" class -- not the very wealthy, but the butchers, tradesmen, etc. Which would help explain why the purported hero always gets his butt kicked by A_Random_Merchant_01, but also why they always become buds afterwards and then go after the real enemy -- greedy landlords, rich people, and tax collectors (that is, the sheriff). quote:When he came to Nottingham, he entered that part of the market where butchers stood, and took up his inn[Stand for selling] in the best place he could find. Next, he opened his stall and spread his meat upon the bench, then, taking his cleaver and steel and clattering them together, he trolled aloud in merry tones: Pyle really develops this a lot from the original ballad. In "Butcher B," Robin is just a bad merchant who doesn't understand meat prices, so he sells everything for a third of what it's worth; here, instead, Robin is just loving around because he wants to flirt with the girls in town; he's making merry, as is his wont. It wouldn't be in character for Pyle's Robin to be stupid, but it would be in character for him to be pranking people, so Pyle re-casts the episode (and in the process writes a bunch of brand-new ballad verse for Robin to sing). Come to think of it, in the original ballads, Robin and the other Merry Men rarely if ever sing ballads themselves (maybe that will change when we get to Robin Hood and Allan-a-Dale, we'll see I guess). I'd always assumed that was something Pyle was drawing from the ballad sources, but I guess it isn't. Having all the characters constantly stop the action to sing ballads is a weird narrative choice; the only other author I can think of who does it with Pyle's frequency is Tolkien, and Tolkien is the right age to have read a lot of Pyle as a child. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Aug 9, 2020 |
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# ? Aug 9, 2020 20:14 |
quote:
"Beshrew" apparently means "make wicked; deprave; invoke evil upon; curse; blame for a misfortune." Robin gets his angle! It's worth noting that at this point the Sheriff has never gotten a clear look at an undisguised Robin (which is probably why Pyle has placed this story as early as it is in the book). quote:There the Sheriff had already come in state, and with him many butchers. When Robin and those that were with him came in, all laughing at some merry jest he had been telling them, those that were near the Sheriff whispered to him, "Yon is a right mad blade, for he hath sold more meat for one penny this day than we could sell for three, and to whatsoever merry lass gave him a kiss he gave meat for nought." And others said, "He is some prodigal that hath sold his land for silver and gold, and meaneth to spend all right merrily." The joke here, of course, being that Robin is being completely honest with the Sheriff, stating his name outright; and he does have horned beasts, though what kind of beast the Sheriff wotteth not! The "horned beasts" joke is in both "Butcher A" and "Butcher B" but in neither is Robin ballsy enough to just state his own name outright brazenly to the Sheriff's face. In "Potter", the "horned beasts" are of course absent, and Robin competes in an archery contest, wins, and convinces the Sheriff that he knows exactly where Robin Hood is and can help the Sheriff trap him. So by following the "Butcher" version rather than the "Potter" version, Pyle avoids a repetitive archery contest, while also allowing space for a bit of a moral, as in "Butcher" the Sheriff is greedy and trying to scam a victim, rather than just trying to capture Robin and do his job. quote:The afternoon had come when the Sheriff mounted his horse and joined Robin Hood, who stood outside the gateway of the paved court waiting for him, for he had sold his horse and cart to a trader for two marks. Then they set forth upon their way, the Sheriff riding upon his horse and Robin running beside him. Thus they left Nottingham Town and traveled forward along the dusty highway, laughing and jesting together as though they had been old friends. But all the time the Sheriff said within himself, "Thy jest to me of Robin Hood shall cost thee dear, good fellow, even four hundred pounds, thou fool." For he thought he would make at least that much by his bargain. I will laugh at this joke every single time it appears in this book. quote:
Apparently, from J.C. Holt, this "highwayman asks traveller to dine with him" was a fairly common trope across various outlaw ballads, and may even have actually been common outlaw practice, under the theory that,hey, if you *sold* someone a *meal*, then it wasn't *robbery*, right? No crime! quote:
I really like that they actually do show the Sheriff a good time. Like, it's not fake; the Sheriff *does* get invited to the cool kids party for a night. quote:
And here we get the explicit moral that we didn't have in the earlier tales. It fits better here with the narrative structure of the original ballads, and Pyle doesn't waste a lot of time on it, but it's there. The other major change Pyle makes in these latter sections of Butcher is that both Potter and Butcher A include some sections of Robin flirting with the Sheriff's wife -- in Potter Robin gives her a ring, and in Butcher A she speaks some lines and it appears (though some relevant pages are missing) that Robin only spares the Sheriff as a favor to the Sheriff's wife (again implying a relationship between the wife and Robin). On the one hand, this means that Pyle just cut out one of the very few speaking roles for a female character in all the early ballad sources. On the other, though, this way he avoids any hint that Robin was carrying on with a married woman, again fitting in with Pyle's quaker morality (Pyle also was known for only teaching his students to draw from clothed models).
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# ? Aug 9, 2020 21:26 |
I found a neat article on how Robin moved from the ballads, through pulp serials, and into Pyle; it also gives us some more background on that Dumas version I mentioned on the last page:quote:
https://www.boldoutlaw.com/robages/robages8.html
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# ? Aug 9, 2020 23:46 |
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Unironically loving those villain names. That is some Phoenix Wright level poo poo.
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# ? Aug 10, 2020 05:14 |
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:On the one hand, this means that Pyle just cut out one of the very few speaking roles for a female character in all the early ballad sources. On the other, though, this way he avoids any hint that Robin was carrying on with a married woman, again fitting in with Pyle's quaker morality (Pyle also was known for only teaching his students to draw from clothed models).
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# ? Aug 10, 2020 10:46 |
Dareon posted:Unironically loving those villain names. That is some Phoenix Wright level poo poo. Just from skimming the first chapter of the Dumas version, even teen Robin was already shooting down arrows in flight with other arrows.
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# ? Aug 10, 2020 12:55 |
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anilEhilated posted:I find it kind of interesting how most of the encounters between the Merry Men and anyone else go: "Ho there, stout fellow! I like the cut of your jib, let's try to bash each other's skulls with quarterstaffs!" Conversely, if you whip the Robin Hood's rear end with a staff you must be a tough, brave lad and everyone wants to be friends with you.
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# ? Aug 10, 2020 15:14 |
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
I think it adds to the setting; noblebright Merrie England, where humming ale, good cheese, and fresh baked bread are always available, the lasses are fair, the men are stout, everyone has a tune on their lips to sing for each other, and a good fair fight leads to lifelong friendship. Brian Jacques totally read Pyle too. Also, "Now stand thou back thine own self," is a GREAT line, and I will find a way to use it in some RPG.
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# ? Aug 10, 2020 21:07 |
The next section is kindof a weird interlude, but it's right out of A Gest of Robyn Hode, the oldest Robin Hood ballad we have. More specifically, it's a chunk out of the middle; we'll get to the main storyline of the Gest later. In the Gest, Robin lends Little John to the service of a knight (we'll get to that story later); while in the service of the knight, Little John wins an archery contest in Nottingham; the Sheriff asks him to join up and, what the hell, Little John agrees and becomes the Sheriff's right-hand man as a prank, after which some hijinks ensue. Since Pyle is re-arranging the narrative order, he has to restructure the framing a bit. quote:SPRING HAD GONE since the Sheriff's feast in Sherwood, and summer also, and the mellow month of October had come. All the air was cool and fresh; the harvests were gathered home, the young birds were full fledged, the hops were plucked, and apples were ripe. But though time had so smoothed things over that men no longer talked of the horned beasts that the Sheriff wished to buy, he was still sore about the matter and could not bear to hear Robin Hood's name spoken in his presence. It's another fair at Nottingham and another archery contest; but this one's lame, so Robin and most of the other Merry Men decide not to bother. Still, Little John is feeling kinda bored just being merry all the time, he wants some hijinks, so he decides to go anyway. quote:Right merry were these Fair days at Nottingham, when the green before the great town gate was dotted with booths standing in rows, with tents of many-colored canvas, hung about with streamers and garlands of flowers, and the folk came from all the countryside, both gentle and common. In some booths there was dancing to merry music, in others flowed ale and beer, and in others yet again sweet cakes and barley sugar were sold; and sport was going outside the booths also, where some minstrel sang ballads of the olden time, playing a second upon the harp, or where the wrestlers struggled with one another within the sawdust ring, but the people gathered most of all around a raised platform where stout fellows played at quarterstaff. Just a great description here, and yeah, who wouldn't like to have someone stroll up to the beer booth and shout out "drinks are on me, everybody!" quote:
As far as I can tell, the entirety of this quarterstaff bout is Pyle's invention." I can't find any other sources in google or google books referencing our good friend Eric, though, excepting only Louis Rhead's 1912 Robin Hood which seems heavily based on Pyle's, so this sequence seems like a Pyle invention. It really would not surprise me to find out I'm wrong though, especially since Pyle specifically calls out "Eric O'Lincoln" as having had his "name sung in ballads throughout the countryside. When I read this as a kid, I always thought of this as one of the iconic fights in the book, and assumed it must be coming from a ballad original (especially since Pyle says Eric O'Lincoln featured in ballads). That said, the format of the sequence is classic and one I've seen in everything from folk stories to kung fu movies (specifically, i'm thinking of Five Fingers of Death which has almost this exact sequence just with kung fu instead of quarterstaves -- skip to 9:45 mark to about 12:30): Some travelling badass is beating up local challengers, and our local guy with real talent and skill steps up and you get a bout for the ages. quote:"Ay," quoth Little John, "had I but mine own good staff here, it would pleasure me hugely to crack thy knave's pate, thou saucy braggart! I wot it would be well for thee an thy cock's comb were cut!" Thus he spoke, slowly at first, for he was slow to move; but his wrath gathered headway like a great stone rolling down a hill, so that at the end he was full of anger. classic little hero's journey here, Little John initially refusing the call, being granted outside aid, then accepting. quote:Then each man stood in his place and measured the other with fell looks until he that directed the sport cried, "Play!" At this they stepped forth, each grasping his staff tightly in the middle. Then those that stood around saw the stoutest game of quarterstaff that e'er Nottingham Town beheld. At first Eric o' Lincoln thought that he would gain an easy advantage, so he came forth as if he would say, "Watch, good people, how that I carve you this cockerel right speedily"; but he presently found it to be no such speedy matter. Right deftly he struck, and with great skill of fence, but he had found his match in Little John. Once, twice, thrice, he struck, and three times Little John turned the blows to the left hand and to the right. Then quickly and with a dainty backhanded blow, he rapped Eric beneath his guard so shrewdly that it made his head ring again. Then Eric stepped back to gather his wits, while a great shout went up and all were glad that Nottingham had cracked Lincoln's crown; and thus ended the first bout of the game. Again, classic three-part structure, three rounds, ending in knockout -- and I like the specificity with which Pyle describes the winning blow, that's an actual quarterstaff move and a very powerful strike, like a baseball bat. And this also decisively establishes Little John as the champion Quarterstaff Man in the same way that Robin is Champion Archery Man, for a nice parallelism. They've both won tournaments. quote:And now each man stepped forward and shot in turn; but though each shot well, Little John was the best of all, for three times he struck the clout, and once only the length of a barleycorn from the center. "Hey for the tall archer!" shouted the crowd, and some among them shouted, "Hey for Reynold Greenleaf!" for this was the name that Little John had called himself that day. And he has Little John win an archery competition also, just for kicks, he's still a Merry Man so of course he can outshoot any mere Sheriff's man. Next chapter: hijinks ensue! Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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# ? Aug 11, 2020 00:26 |
The descriptions of places are really great; they just make me want to sit down under yon greenwood tree and watch merry folk pass by. Okay, that might be just reading it while at work.
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# ? Aug 11, 2020 19:11 |
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I will always love a description or depiction of a good fair. My childhood summers were often spent traveling to renaissance or music festivals in my area. As boothies, even, my parents did psychic readings. Although me being like 8, I generally just wandered around (Usually ending up in the sound booth or watching the blacksmith or SCA practice), although sometimes I had my own business: Selling hand-tamed feral kittens. Fond memories of miniature catapults and craft-your-own-souvenir booths and half a cantaloupe with a scoop of ice cream in the middle. And Puff the Magic Dragon. For some reason, probably just low variety in those willing to work fairs up here, every fair had at least one performance by this folk duo that would always do a sing-along of Puff the Magic Dragon. As far as competitions go, at the ren fairs there was usually a knife or axe-throwing act that would challenge people in the audience to best his accuracy. Sometimes you got someone pretty good at knife throwing up there. There was also a comedy chainsaw act I recall that would have a competition to see who could saw the most thin slices off a log in a set time. Although I can't remember if that was an internal contest or audience participation.
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# ? Aug 11, 2020 20:03 |
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What exactly does Little John do in the Sheriff's service? Since the historical Sheriff was an extortionate jerk, I'd think any principled man would avoid working for him; let alone one who's supposed to be on the other side. And what was Robin's response? Did Little John run into some of his old colleagues at the blue Boar and they go "Man, WTF?" Also, why did the Sheriff follow Robin Hood into Sherwood Forest alone, carrying a lot of money? Even if he was greedy enough to go into his enemies' territory, I'd think he'd have brought an escort. (Not that it would have done him much good.)
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# ? Aug 11, 2020 22:32 |
Cobalt-60 posted:
Well, they don't call him "Sly Sheriff of Nottingham", right? Cobalt-60 posted:What exactly does Little John do in the Sheriff's service? Since the historical Sheriff was an extortionate jerk, I'd think any principled man would avoid working for him; let alone one who's supposed to be on the other side. And what was Robin's response? Did Little John run into some of his old colleagues at the blue Boar and they go "Man, WTF?" anilEhilated posted:The descriptions of places are really great; they just make me want to sit down under yon greenwood tree and watch merry folk pass by. And these bring us to the next section! If you've ever had a job where one day you just wake up and go "You know what, I'm out!" . . . . quote:I. How Little John Lived at the Sheriff's What does Little John do at the Sheriff's? He gets faaaaat Most of the above paragraph, again, is pure Pyle; the original Gest is just quote:
So Pyle is adding significantly to Little John's character to make this all more believable and answer the obvious questions. LJ signs up as a prank, bro, but as pranks often do, it turns real, in part because it's winter and living the sweet life as the Sheriff's right hand man is a pretty good gig. Unfortunately, though, holding down a job means you have to get up on time in the morning, and sometimes that suuucks. quote:When he came downstairs he saw the Steward standing near the pantry door—a great, fat man, with a huge bundle of keys hanging to his girdle. Then Little John said, "Ho, Master Steward, a hungry man am I, for nought have I had for all this blessed morn. Therefore, give me to eat." The Steward is a wimpy little bureaucrat who keeps good men from their breakfast -- the worst sin. Keep in mind, though, that meals in medieval households were communal. Everyone's supposed to show up when the Master of the House eats -- that is, in this case, the Sheriff. Since Little John slept through breakfast entirely, and the Sheriff has now gone for the day, by rights and custom the Steward is correct here and Little John has missed his chance at breakfast. (see, e.g., https://oakden.co.uk/a-medieval-feast-menus-etiquette/2/ ) But Little John is Chaotic Good: not for him, the rules that bar a lusty yoeman from his feeding. quote:So saying, he crept into the pantry and looked about him to see if he could find something to appease his hunger. He saw a great venison pasty and two roasted capons, beside which was a platter of plover's eggs; moreover, there was a flask of sack and one of canary—a sweet sight to a hungry man. These he took down from the shelves and placed upon a sideboard, and prepared to make himself merry. Sack, Malmsey, and Canary were wines from the Canary Islands; they don't start being imported to Europe until the 1500's or so from what I can tell. "Sack" specifically is fortified wine, like modern sherry -- think Amontillado, or Courvoisier. "Capons" are castrated male chickens specifically fattened for eating: quote:Humankind has been eating chicken for a long time—at least since 4000 BC in Asia—but the capon’s history is a bit murkier. It seems the Romans were the first to castrate a young male chicken and then fatten it, when a law was passed during a period of drought forbidding the fattening of hens, as it was deemed a waste of precious grain. Wily breeders skirted the letter of the law by instead castrating roosters, and fattening them for sale. The name “capon” comes from the Latin “capo,” meaning “cut.” Through the Middle Ages, capons were especially popular with the clergy and kings, and thus popularized throughout Europe, where capon was stuffed, roasted, stewed and baked into pies. In present-day France and Italy, capons are traditionally served at Christmas. https://www.dartagnan.com/what-is-a-capon-how-to-cook.html The venison "pasty" is a meat pie. Americans don't really eat meat pies any more, except for the Chicken Pot Pie, but here's a recipe for a venison pasty (that's "paaah-sty" with a long a). After the eatin', of course, comes the singin': quote:"Now," quoth Little John, "thy voice is right round and sweet, jolly lad. I doubt not thou canst sing a ballad most blithely; canst thou not?" I can't find originals in google for either of these songs beyond Pyle, but that doesn't mean they aren't out there. Still, a stout yoeman's gotta do what a stout yoeman's gotta do, and they said they were gonna fight, so, I mean, wouldn't want to be unmanly quote:Then they both stepped forth into the broad passage that led to the Steward's pantry, where each man drew his sword again and without more ado fell upon the other as though he would hew his fellow limb from limb. Then their swords clashed upon one another with great din, and sparks flew from each blow in showers. So they fought up and down the hall for an hour and more, neither striking the other a blow, though they strove their best to do so; for both were skillful at the fence; so nothing came of all their labor. Ever and anon they rested, panting; then, after getting their wind, at it they would go again more fiercely than ever. At last Little John cried aloud, "Hold, good Cook!" whereupon each rested upon his sword, panting. Of course, the Cook and Little John being bros, they swing their swords for a full hour but then realize, hey, we're bros! Let's go be forest bros instead! Pyle is reversing the order of everything here; in the Gest, the Cook and LJ fight first, then chow down, and nobody sings. Pyle's order is a little more comical and definitely more bro-tastic. And Little John brings the Sheriff's plate back, and the band thinks it's funny . . . but Robin doesn't. This sequence -- with Robin saying "hey, we already burned the Sheriff once, the Sheriff isn't that bad a guy, this is overdoing it", is entirely absent from the ballad and Pyle's addition; in the Gest, LJ just gets the plate and then brings in the Sheriff also because, hell, it's funny. Either way, though, the Sheriff gets another visit to Robin's Forest Inn -- Robin's not going to stand in the way of a good joke! quote:Little John ran for full five miles till he came to where the Sheriff of Nottingham and a gay company were hunting near the forest. When Little John came to the Sheriff he doffed his cap and bent his knee. "God save thee, good master," quoth he. The sequence with the Sheriff getting served by his own cook with his own goblet is in the ballad, but of course in the original, Robin's men keep the silver instead of giving it back; they do let the Sheriff go, but they make him promise to always help out Robin's men from now on and never prosecute them. And the moral about hiring servants is new with Pyle also. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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# ? Aug 11, 2020 23:18 |
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Making the sheriff promise not to prosecute them is a poor deal. You get some minor embarrassment from the Sheriff as he says it, but he'd quickly realize that hey, they're outlaws, you don't have to keep your word to an outlaw. Stretch their necks quick enough and they won't even be able to tell anyone you broke your oath. On the topic of outlaws, up through at least the 14th century, outlaws who refused a summons to the king's justice would be labeled Caput lupinum, "wearing the head of a wolf." ""Wolfshead!" shall be cried against him, for that a wolf is a beast hated of all folk; and from that time forward it is lawful for anyone to slay him like a wolf."
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# ? Aug 12, 2020 00:33 |
The idea of "well, we promised to swordfight, but this is getting silly. Want a job?" is good fun. Pyle's moralizing is pretty evident here, with Robin declaring that the Sheriff had done nothing to deserve being robbed.
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# ? Aug 12, 2020 01:17 |
I also really love "thou great purse of fat"
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# ? Aug 12, 2020 01:52 |
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Cobalt-60 posted:What exactly does Little John do in the Sheriff's service? Since the historical Sheriff was an extortionate jerk, I'd think any principled man would avoid working for him; let alone one who's supposed to be on the other side. And what was Robin's response? Did Little John run into some of his old colleagues at the blue Boar and they go "Man, WTF?" Eh, this is pre-Modernist English Literature, there's not even an attempt at realism.
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# ? Aug 12, 2020 03:05 |
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Come on man you didn't even include the illustration for this part! It's so good! If you're wondering why they hold their left hands up like that, that's how foil fencers stood in 1883. It doesn't make any sense for a story set in 1100 because the fencing lunge won't get invented for 400 years, but who cares it looks like a rad swordfight scene. You can tell Pyle knew how fencing is supposed to look like. Compare Little John's parry above to this dude in some kind of military fencing exhibition from 1873:
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# ? Aug 12, 2020 07:24 |
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Siivola posted:If you're wondering why they hold their left hands up like that, that's how foil fencers stood in 1883. It doesn't make any sense for a story set in 1100 because the fencing lunge won't get invented for 400 years, but who cares it looks like a rad swordfight scene. You can tell Pyle knew how fencing is supposed to look like. Compare Little John's parry above to this dude in some kind of military fencing exhibition from 1873: This sort of thing bothers me if I let it. On the one hand, historical accuracy should be portrayed as closely as possible, it's absurd for Arthurian knights to be going around on horseback in full plate with longswords and lances when Camelot, if it even existed, was sometime around the fall of Rome (When both horses and swords were tiny due to lack of husbandry and metalworking knowledge respectively). On the other hand, it's hard to get any information whatsoever about fighting styles back then, all the European martial arts manuals I'm finding with a quick scan of Wikipedia date from the 1400s or later, with only a few as early as the 1300s. On the gripping hand, it is hella rad. I honestly wouldn't be completely opposed to a historical European action film where the brawling style is just recognizably Krav Maga or something.
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# ? Aug 12, 2020 08:20 |
Dareon posted:This sort of thing bothers me if I let it. On the one hand, historical accuracy should be portrayed as closely as possible, it's absurd for Arthurian knights to be going around on horseback in full plate with longswords and lances when Camelot, if it even existed, was sometime around the fall of Rome (When both horses and swords were tiny due to lack of husbandry and metalworking knowledge respectively). On the other hand, it's hard to get any information whatsoever about fighting styles back then, all the European martial arts manuals I'm finding with a quick scan of Wikipedia date from the 1400s or later, with only a few as early as the 1300s. And to be fair to Pyle, this kind of fencing would have been the most accurate source he had available to him at the time; I don't believe things like Hans Talhoffer's Fight Book were known or available until fairly recently, especially in America. And, after all, we're in the land of Fancy; where every ballad from 1200 to 1700 is happening at once. There's being accurate to the nominal setting (1180 or so) and there's being accurate to the contemporary setting of the ballad sources (that is, 1400 to 1600 ish). Arthur wears full plate and rides horseback because most modern authors are following Mallory, who wrote in the 1400's and gave everyone high medieval equipage; similarly here, I think Pyle has a decent defense in that he's keeping everything roughly appropriate for the dating of his source material if not appropriate for the actual dates in his text. After we've gone through the whole book I'll make a detailed post on "Historical Robin" to help close out the thread, it's a more complex topic than I'd expected. Dareon posted:
Check out Brotherhood of the Wolf: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-So-yYHxMY&t=62s Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 13:21 on Aug 12, 2020 |
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# ? Aug 12, 2020 13:15 |
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:
quote:The Steward is a wimpy little bureaucrat who keeps good men from their breakfast -- the worst sin. quote:Sack, Malmsey, and Canary were wines from the Canary Islands; they don't start being imported to Europe until the 1500's or so from what I can tell. "Sack" specifically is fortified wine, like modern sherry -- think Amontillado, or Courvoisier. quote:"Capons" are castrated male chickens specifically fattened for eating: quote:The venison "pasty" is a meat pie. Americans don't really eat meat pies any more, except for the Chicken Pot Pie, but here's a recipe for a venison pasty (that's "paaah-sty" with a long a). My mother makes awesome chicken pasties/turnovers/pies, although her crust is more biscuit than pastry. I should make those. For someone who claims to hate Robin Hood, the Sheriff keeps going into Sherwood Forest alone quite often.
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# ? Aug 12, 2020 17:18 |
Cobalt-60 posted:For someone who claims to hate Robin Hood, the Sheriff keeps going into Sherwood Forest alone quite often. Dumas (as well as most film adapations, methinks) turns him (along with the Bishop of Hereford) into a scheming villain, but from what I've read of Pyle so far, the Sheriff seems more of a bumbling bureaucrat. He's even introduced asking the King to help him do his King-given job.
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# ? Aug 12, 2020 17:31 |
Comically, I hadn't realized that there were performances of a lot of these ballads up on Youtube. (These first two are kinda low-quality versions, just a guy in his living room): A Gest of Robyn Hode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_FiUMJZvak Robin's Progress to Nottingham:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqGVge_I4mQ Robin Hood and Little John: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD4ICsY__cw Robin Hood and Little John [remix]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLhYSw67pdg Robin Hood and the Tinker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6UJE6zjGwY Robin Hood and the Butcher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYGuo4MPpzA Robin Rescuing Will Stutely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jtxm9NN9KE and (foreshadowing!) : Robin Hood and the Tanner: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpG4bzdmyjc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYmgFIvbdY0 Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 18:42 on Aug 12, 2020 |
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# ? Aug 12, 2020 18:34 |
The next few episodes are basically a "getting the band back together" montage -- episode after episode that explain how the various famous members of the Merry Men join up. The next of these in sequence is Arthur a Bland, the Tanner, famed subject of "Robin Hood and the Tanner," Child Ballad 126 : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYmgFIvbdY0 Pyle transposes the fight and sets it between Arthur a Bland and Little John instead. quote:ONE FINE DAY, not long after Little John had left abiding with the Sheriff and had come back, with his worship's cook, to the merry greenwood, as has just been told, Robin Hood and a few chosen fellows of his band lay upon the soft sward beneath the greenwood tree where they dwelled. The day was warm and sultry, so that while most of the band were scattered through the forest upon this mission and upon that, these few stout fellows lay lazily beneath the shade of the tree, in the soft afternoon, passing jests among themselves and telling merry stories, with laughter and mirth. Someone has to go get all that cloth of Lincoln Green! And Little John has been lazing it at the Sheriff's so it's his job. quote:So he strode whistling along the leafy forest path that led to Fosse Way, turning neither to the right hand nor the left, until at last he came to where the path branched, leading on the one hand onward to Fosse Way, and on the other, as well Little John knew, to the merry Blue Boar Inn. Here Little John suddenly ceased whistling and stopped in the middle of the path. First he looked up and then he looked down, and then, tilting his cap over one eye, he slowly scratched the back part of his head. For thus it was: at the sight of these two roads, two voices began to alarum within him, the one crying, "There lies the road to the Blue Boar Inn, a can of brown October, and a merry night with sweet companions such as thou mayst find there"; the other, "There lies the way to Ancaster and the duty thou art sent upon." Now the first of these two voices was far the louder, for Little John had grown passing fond of good living through abiding at the Sheriff's house; so, presently, looking up into the blue sky, across which bright clouds were sailing like silver boats, and swallows skimming in circling flight, quoth he, "I fear me it will rain this evening, so I'll e'en stop at the Blue Boar till it passes by, for I know my good master would not have me wet to the skin." So, without more ado, off he strode down the path that lay the way of his likings. Now there was no sign of any foul weather, but when one wishes to do a thing, as Little John did, one finds no lack of reasons for the doing. This whole sequence is of course an addition by Pyle, but it's perfectly well in character for Little John as he's been established so far (his defining character traits being that he is a) very large and b) not fond of doing his job). Despite everyone living outdoors, this is the only mention of rain or clouds we'll get in the entire book, apart from the Preface announcing that in the land of Fancy, "no rain falls but what rolls off our backs like April showers off the backs of sleek drakes." quote:Up he rose at the dawn of the next day, and, taking his stout pikestaff in his hand, he set forth upon his journey once more, as though he would make up for lost time. Apart from substituting Little John for Robin, this exchange -- our hero calling himself a "forester," and offering to let Arthur pass due to having a slightly shorter staff -- are straight from the ballad text. quote:So, without more ado, each gripped his staff in the middle, and, with fell and angry looks, they came slowly together. The actual description of the fight here is mostly from Pyle also; in the ballad they just hit each other a few times, Robin eventually cries "hold" , therre a few jokes about tanning each other's hide, and that's it. Instead, here we get Little John's one and only loss at quarterstaff -- and he's got two excuses, one that he got fat at the Sheriff and another that the other guy was wearing leather armor on his head. Still, he lost, and Robin saw, so you know he's gonna catch some grief over that one. Hence our implicit moral: do your assigned work, and don't get fat and lazy! quote:"What may be thy name, good fellow?" said Robin, next, turning to the Tanner. Tanning was a fairly dirty and unpleasant job even by medieval standards, so maybe it's no surprise good Arthur wants out. It's interesting that Robin mentions Will Scathelock here, because we'll be meeting a slightly different version of Will in the next adventure. Onward! Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Aug 13, 2020 |
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# ? Aug 12, 2020 21:28 |
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anilEhilated posted:Well, he likes hunting and hawking. Also, he's not exactly smart which really isn't a surprise for a character that exists just so he can be pranked by the Merry Men. I wonder if that's why the Errol Flynn movie shoves the Sheriff into the background and gives all the (competent) sneering evil to Basil Rathbone's Guy of Gisbourne.
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# ? Aug 13, 2020 02:24 |
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quote:"Nay," quoth the Tinker—for, by roaming the country, he had learned what dogs were— I keep chuckling at this line, it feels some passing understatement Twain would use.
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# ? Aug 13, 2020 03:18 |
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Siivola posted:Have you by any chance been playing Kingdom Come lately? Soupy beer that you need to drink with a straw is an ancient Egyptian thing, and that game is the only instance I know of that getting associated with the Middle Ages. I've read that one item considered representative of femininity was the sieve carried at the belt so that the woman of the household could strain any remaining soupy porridgey bits out upon serving (her being the one to pour and serve the beverages, thus offering hospitality, being an important aspect of her role in the household). I don't remember details like "where i read this" but all the sources on my shelf focus on pre-14th-century England and its northern French cultural sphere.
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# ? Aug 13, 2020 09:02 |
Robin Hood and Will Scarlet Will Scarlet is one of the oldest members of Robin's band, present in the earliest ballads, and in a sense we've already met him, or a version of him -- Robin just mentioned Will Scathelock in the last story. "Scathelock", "Scarlock" and "Scarlet" were originally just different versions of the same character. He's probably the most frequently-named member of the band after Robin and Little John, showing up under one or another name in seven different Child ballads: Gest (Child 117), Robin Hood his Death (Child 120), Robin Hood and the Newly Revived (Child 128), "Robin Hood's Delight" (Child 136), "Robin Hood and the Curtal Friar" (Child 123), "Robin Hood and Guy of Gisbourne" (Child 118), and "Robin Hood and the Prince of Aragon" (Child 129). In some ballads, yet another version of the character shows up under the name Gandelyn or Gamble Gold (you may have heard one of these, actually, as Child ballad 132, "Robin Hood and the Pedlar", was featured as a tavern song in Assasin's Creed: Black Flag). Traditionally, Will Scarlet is the most skilled swordsman of the Merry Men, just as Little John is the quarterstaff champ and Robin is the bowman. Over time, though, the different names developed into different traditions, and as early as the 1500's, "Scathelock" and "Scarlet" are being treated as two different people, where "Scathelock" or "Scarlock" was a more grubby and violent character known for his strength ("Scathelock" apparently means "lock-smasher") and "Scarlet" was the more dandified, fancy man character wearing fancy clothes. "Will Scarlet" may in a sense be a backroynm-as-character -- "Scathelock" changing into "Scarlet" over time, "Scarlet" being associated with fancy expensive clothes, and a new fancy-man character thus emerging and splitting off into his own side tradition. Pyle follows that split, with both a Scathelock and a Scarlet in the band, but he's going to spend a lot more time on fancy Will Scarlet; he's drawing a bit on all the above here but the most direct source is Child Ballad 128, "Robin Hood Newly Revived", basically written as a Will Scarlet origin story. (You can listen to a version of it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK-sm6xNM8Y ) quote:THUS THEY traveled along the sunny road, three stout fellows such as you could hardly match anywhere else in all merry England. Many stopped to gaze after them as they strode along, so broad were their shoulders and so sturdy their gait. I can't stay mad at you! quote:After they had traveled some distance, the day being warm and the road dusty, Robin Hood waxed thirsty; so, there being a fountain of water as cold as ice, just behind the hedgerow, they crossed the stile and came to where the water bubbled up from beneath a mossy stone. Here, kneeling and making cups of the palms of their hands, they drank their fill, and then, the spot being cool and shady, they stretched their limbs and rested them for a space. We could talk about a possible gay reading of this passage, but I'm not sure it holds up if we care about authorial intent, because I doubt such was even on Pyle's radar. Still, it's there and maybe someone with better analytic chops than I could make some hay there, but I'll leave that angle aside for now. There's the Norman / Saxon split of course and some class divisions, of course. Main thing, though, is that Robin has decided to start a fight in advance, without thinking things through or talking first, and we know by now exactly how that's going to work out for him. quote:Meantime the stranger, who had been walking so slowly that all this talk was held before he came opposite the place where they were, neither quickened his pace nor seemed to see that such a man as Robin Hood was in the world. So Robin stood in the middle of the road, waiting while the other walked slowly forward, smelling his rose, and looking this way and that, and everywhere except at Robin. Methinks good Robin may have bitten off more than he can digest! (But note how this twist incorporates both the fancy Scarlet and the brutal Scathelock traditions: dude is fancy and also a beast). I love how polite and friendly they both are to each other. The bit with discarding the sword for quarterstaves parallels the original ballad, where initially they are going to shoot arrows at each other, then decide to "step it down" and fight with swords instead. quote:Well did Robin Hood hold his own that day as a mid-country yeoman. This way and that they fought, and back and forth, Robin's skill against the stranger's strength. The dust of the highway rose up around them like a cloud, so that at times Little John and the Tanner could see nothing, but only hear the rattle of the staves against one another. Thrice Robin Hood struck the stranger; once upon the arm and twice upon the ribs, and yet had he warded all the other's blows, only one of which, had it met its mark, would have laid stout Robin lower in the dust than he had ever gone before. At last the stranger struck Robin's cudgel so fairly in the middle that he could hardly hold his staff in his hand; again he struck, and Robin bent beneath the blow; a third time he struck, and now not only fairly beat down Robin's guard, but gave him such a rap, also, that down he tumbled into the dusty road. Yeah, we knew that was going to happen. I like how Little John gets his digs in, to make up for Robin giving him poo poo over the fight with the Tanner. But maybe they should've asked each other's name first? quote:"My name is Gamwell," answered the other. So it's ok Robin lost! Scarlett's his own nephew (think back to Robin's comments about the guy's likely family a few paragraphs ago) and Robin taught him how to use the quarterstaff in the first place. He's just younger, stronger Robin! Note this also implies a fair bit about Robin's social class; he may not be gentry himself, but he clearly has near relatives who are. It's also worth remembering that so far this makes two members of the band who've actually done anything specific to get themselves outlawed. Little John and the Tinker and the Tanner and the rest just join up for the hell of it and because they want to shoot deer in future; Robin and Will though, they've both killed people. quote:"Well, by the faith of my heart," quoth Robin Hood, "for anyone escaping the law, thou wast taking it the most easily that ever I beheld in all my life. Whenever did anyone in all the world see one who had slain a man, and was escaping because of it, tripping along the highway like a dainty court damsel, sniffing at a rose the while?" You know what, it did look like rain! It still does! Let's all go back home and do our work some other day! Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Aug 13, 2020 |
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# ? Aug 13, 2020 15:10 |
I just realized the reason I've had "little bunny foo foo hoppin through the forest" running through my head for the past two weeks is because of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLhYSw67pdg
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# ? Aug 13, 2020 20:18 |
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# ? Apr 23, 2024 20:28 |
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Same, even though I haven't seen it for years and years. I'm really enjoying that these are discrete tales that together comprise a larger work without being tightly joined by a single narrative, both because they're easier to read in smaller sittings and because it leaves room in the imagination. I'm especially thinking of this as compared to Ivanehoe, a favorite of mine that also includes "Robin of Locksley", but is very much one continuous story.
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# ? Aug 14, 2020 02:51 |