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Gaius specifically said during his time as Shadowhunter that what he wanted to do was talk to Varis and find out whether the Garlean Empire really was just an Ascian machine for creating death and chaos. He doesn't know it, but he's aware of the possibility and open-minded about it, and the Weapon storyline is really hammering in that he and his country were a blight upon Hydaelyn. He's definitely in the middle of an extremely painful redemption arc, which will likely culminate in him saving one or more of his kids in a grand, public act of defiance against the Empire. An endgame with Maxima as the new leader of Garlemald and Gaius as his retired military advisor seems likely. Fandaniel, Asahi, Teledji, and Yuyuhase seem to make up a recurring subgenre of evil-evil secondary antagonists who are just cruel, greedy assholes. Zenos is Trump-evil - he has his reasons for being who he is, but they mainly build understanding rather than sympathy. He's just a spoiled fascist brat with a violence addiction. Some folks do be like that.
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Sep 15, 2020 15:15
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Chillgamesh posted:Open up the glamour cabinet to fill out a new plate, who's that in the reflection? It's Zenos with three extra katana golfbags and an ice bucket full of Vitality Infusions Hell yeah he would obviously try to beat us in the Real Endgame, only makes sense. Zoig posted:
I accept these terms 
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Sep 15, 2020 15:27
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Speaking of music, have we talked about the lyrics to To the Edge? They're pretty  .quote:All our splendour bathed black in silence
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Sep 15, 2020 15:36
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Darth Walrus posted:Fandaniel, Asahi, Teledji, and Yuyuhase seem to make up a recurring subgenre of evil-evil secondary antagonists who are just cruel, greedy assholes. Zenos is Trump-evil - he has his reasons for being who he is, but they mainly build understanding rather than sympathy. He's just a spoiled fascist brat with a violence addiction. Some folks do be like that. Sometime last year I put a bunch of XIV villains onto the old-school D&D alignment grid (which I think is awful, but it helped me make my point to tabletop nerds) to show the breadth of villains the game's got, and a lot of those 'evil secondary antagonists' are the real the game's got just a TON of Lawful Evil bad guys. XIV really loves its assholes who know how to play politics. My point, as an aside, was that the slate's so wide that there's villains for every single alignment, including the Good ones. I had Ramuh as Neutral Good (wise enough to know what he has to do for the greater good, but essentially willing to just inform someone else and let them make the decision), and Ilberd as Chaotic Good (terrible shitbird who's doing horrible things we don't understand until it's too late, but all for a noble goal that ended up being for the best). Lawful Good could be either Alexander or Thordan depending on how you define that particular alignment, with the other ending up Lawful Neutral.
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Sep 15, 2020 15:45
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I think the angle they're pushing for Zenos is that constantly witnessing the apocalypse in a society that rarely if ever meaningfully challenges him on his worst impulses has broken his brain and he's numb to everything except the pain he inflicts and that others inflict on him and embraces nihilism out of a belief that nothing he could do would matter.
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Sep 15, 2020 15:50
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Cleretic posted:Sometime last year I put a bunch of XIV villains onto the old-school D&D alignment grid (which I think is awful, but it helped me make my point to tabletop nerds) to show the breadth of villains the game's got, and a lot of those 'evil secondary antagonists' are the real the game's got just a TON of Lawful Evil bad guys. XIV really loves its assholes who know how to play politics. Alex is nice enough, but Thordan just wants to be an eternal superpowered magical dictator. He's not as monstrous as some other villains, but there's little to actually recommend him.
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Sep 15, 2020 15:53
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CYBEReris posted:I think the angle they're pushing for Zenos is that constantly witnessing the apocalypse in a society that rarely if ever meaningfully challenges him on his worst impulses has broken his brain and he's numb to everything except the pain he inflicts and that others inflict on him and embraces nihilism out of a belief that nothing he could do would matter. So, a spoiled fascist brat who keeps getting recommended guro by the YouTube algorithm? Still not exactly the most heart-rending backstory in the game.
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Sep 15, 2020 15:55
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Darth Walrus posted:Alex is nice enough, but Thordan just wants to be an eternal superpowered magical dictator. He's not as monstrous as some other villains, but there's little to actually recommend him. It wasn't really about him being a good person, really. The verdict there came down to if you prioritize the character's external deeds or internal intention more strongly in considering them 'good'. If intention is more important, then Thordan was trying to create a perfect utopia--it's just that we fell outside of what he considered 'utopic', and it turns out lawful benevolence looks downright horrifying if you don't fall under its purview. Meanwhile Alexander was basically just a machine following what it perceived as the best course of action, without any real inclinations to any side. But if deeds are more important, then Alexander looked at all of his myriad options and decided that the best thing it could do, for the good of the entire planet, was to ensure that it couldn't be used to indirectly destroy the place while guiding everyone to be at least a little better off for its existence. Meanwhile, Thordan took swings at both the people trying to destroy the world and the people trying to save it in his effort to create a society independent from both of them. ...As an aside, I realized while typing this up that, I think the reason Alexander allowed itself to exist (by sending Mide into the past to seed its own creation) instead of erasing itself from the timeline (which FFXIV time travel laws say would probably have worked) is because it saw the future, and realized that the Ironworks building the Tycoon based on their observations of it is essential to the planet surviving.
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Sep 15, 2020 16:43
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Cleretic posted:Sometime last year I put a bunch of XIV villains onto the old-school D&D alignment grid (which I think is awful, but it helped me make my point to tabletop nerds) to show the breadth of villains the game's got, and a lot of those 'evil secondary antagonists' are the real the game's got just a TON of Lawful Evil bad guys. XIV really loves its assholes who know how to play politics. D&D alignment charts are half meaningless, like you point out, but there's nothing good about Ilberd. By the time he was enacting his plan, he cared nothing about Ala Mhigo or Eorzea; he wanted everyone to suffer like he did in a new calamity.
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Sep 15, 2020 17:14
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Cleretic posted:thordan You're forgetting that Thordan knows Ishgard started the war with dragonkind out of greed so the entire reason he has authority is a lie. Ishgard under his rule is nightmarish, where most live in crumbling ruins or on the frontlines of a pointless war and even the wealthy and sheltered nobles live in constant fear that the church may accuse them of heresy and strip them of all their status at a moment's notice. Given that, I don't think you can really say he has good intentions for his utopian society that he, personally, has total control over.
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Sep 15, 2020 17:25
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Chillgamesh posted:You're forgetting that Thordan knows Ishgard started the war with dragonkind out of greed so the entire reason he has authority is a lie. Ishgard under his rule is nightmarish, where most live in crumbling ruins or on the frontlines of a pointless war and even the wealthy and sheltered nobles live in constant fear that the church may accuse them of heresy and strip them of all their status at a moment's notice. Given that, I don't think you can really say he has good intentions for his utopian society that he, personally, has total control over. I mentioned in the main thing that the thing that struck me with Varis wasn't his facisim and "THE RACE WAR STARTS NOW!" but how ultimately when you break down his character, he's someone who discovered the truth of his nation, his people, his family line, and just completely collapsed until the fear of it all. He was confronted with his entire life being a lie, and all those deaths being for nothing, and rather than gritting his teeth and deciding to fight back against it, he bowed his head and started mumbling something about how if they give the Ascians what they want, then, eventually, when they're complete, they can get their revenge. Thordan is very similar. Presumably, he started off with good enough intentions as he entered the church and politik'd his way up the ladder, then he got the big reveal, the damning one, "Hey everyone's died for a lie, your job now, as head lie-maker is to send people to die in a forever-war, because if you ever tell the truth, you'll utterly destroy this country." He was in the end, afraid of what would come from trying to take a stand and actually change things, afraid of poo poo going south and everyone dying because of him. So his solution to that was, as so many others do when faced with despair, INCLUDING THE AMAUROTIANS OH MY GOD THIS JUST HIT ME, WAS TO TRY TO SUMMON A GOD! It just hit me that, literally to Shadowbringers, the end result of a people caught in a situation they cannot comprehend or challenge is to attempt to invoke the divine. And it is the people who have the strength like the Warrior of Light or Aymeric, who stand up and refuse. Or in cases like the Cid of the doomed timeline, how easy would it have been to go "Let's just summon Alexander!" But they didn't, they didn't turn to a Primal, they turned to their own ingenuity.
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Sep 15, 2020 17:58
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So what I hear you saying is... Too late and to their sorrow, do those who misplace their trust in gods learn their fate 
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Sep 15, 2020 18:43
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Onmi posted:I mentioned in the main thing that the thing that struck me with Varis wasn't his facisim and "THE RACE WAR STARTS NOW!" but how ultimately when you break down his character, he's someone who discovered the truth of his nation, his people, his family line, and just completely collapsed until the fear of it all. He was confronted with his entire life being a lie, and all those deaths being for nothing, and rather than gritting his teeth and deciding to fight back against it, he bowed his head and started mumbling something about how if they give the Ascians what they want, then, eventually, when they're complete, they can get their revenge. I mean I'm kinda sketchy about this being a theme, since it's, well...biased in favor of those who already wield strength as globe-trotting Men of Power. But I've had this argument before.
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Sep 15, 2020 18:59
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I do think it's an inevitability that 6.0 will feature us facing down a Garlean primal. We've pushed them too hard and shaken their sense of self-worth too hard for any other outcome. Yeah, I know they don't have magic, but they're getting better and better at finding creative/horrifying solutions to that little problem.
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Sep 15, 2020 19:34
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Onmi posted:I mentioned in the main thing that the thing that struck me with Varis wasn't his facisim and "THE RACE WAR STARTS NOW!" but how ultimately when you break down his character, he's someone who discovered the truth of his nation, his people, his family line, and just completely collapsed until the fear of it all. He was confronted with his entire life being a lie, and all those deaths being for nothing, and rather than gritting his teeth and deciding to fight back against it, he bowed his head and started mumbling something about how if they give the Ascians what they want, then, eventually, when they're complete, they can get their revenge. I feel like it's less "fear" and more "the self-righteous fragility of the white man asked to give up his privileges."
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Sep 15, 2020 19:35
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Darth Walrus posted:I do think it's an inevitability that 6.0 will feature us facing down a Garlean primal. We've pushed them too hard and shaken their sense of self-worth too hard for any other outcome. Yeah, I know they don't have magic, but they're getting better and better at finding creative/horrifying solutions to that little problem. Jecht, Legatus of the X Imperial Legion.
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Sep 15, 2020 19:49
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Darth Walrus posted:I do think it's an inevitability that 6.0 will feature us facing down a Garlean primal. We've pushed them too hard and shaken their sense of self-worth too hard for any other outcome. Yeah, I know they don't have magic, but they're getting better and better at finding creative/horrifying solutions to that little problem. I don't know the finer details of Garlean aether deprivation lore but I reckon you could make a pretty good fight out of a legendary field commander who becomes a primal of themselves after you initially defeat them through the sheer faith their troops in them, like a positive version of Garuda's origin
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Sep 15, 2020 20:26
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Onmi posted:fear I can buy Thordan and Varis letting cowardice guide their actions to a certain extent, but it's awfully convenient for them that their inaction in the face of the truth leaves them both in seats of incredible power, which they use to commit atrocities in pursuit of twisted goals. e: Though, it feels like less of a motivator for Thordan in particular, since he doesn't have the literal Angel of Death hanging over his shoulder. Chillgamesh fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Sep 15, 2020 |
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Sep 15, 2020 20:31
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Ishgard in particular makes me wonder how much dragons have affected the Ascian's plans for the source over time. They're extraterrestrials that came about after the Sundering, and between compelling Tiamat to summon Bahamut and giving Thordan VII the tools to end his foreverwar their existence has been used by the Ascians to further their goals. But I wonder how their power compares to Ascians in general (especially Midgardsormr's brood - Nidhogg's eye absorbs Lahabrea (?) like the white auracite did to Nabriales but was able to keep him there until every last drop was used to summon Shinryu), or if they were even aware that Omega was doing Omega things during 4.x. If 6.0 is suppose to be the last story on Hydaelyn I wanna go to the dragon homeworld and see what the gently caress's going on over there.
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Sep 15, 2020 22:21
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Do we know which ascian was responsible for Bahamut? I almost wonder if it was Emet-Selch, hoping that these unsundered aliens would be worthy inheritors of the star and he can finally give up and rest, only to be disappointed again
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Sep 15, 2020 23:01
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Emet-Selch was responsible for Allag. Whether he had anything to do with second gen Allag resurrecting Xande and going on a warpath is unknown, but he might have been poking Amon in that direction. I don't think the Ascians have much love for the dragons. They're probably just seen as useful tools if anything.
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Sep 15, 2020 23:03
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Dragons being unsundered, with aether capacities as high or higher as amaurotines, seems like something they'd at least be interested in
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Sep 15, 2020 23:08
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Vitamean posted:If 6.0 is suppose to be the last story on Hydaelyn I wanna go to the dragon homeworld and see what the gently caress's going on over there. It's the last story in the arc revolving around the primals Hydaelyn and Zodiark, not necessarily the last one taking place on the planet Hydaelyn. I think there's enough crumbs of locations outside the Three Great Continents to fill a couple more expansions after that.
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Sep 15, 2020 23:08
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Vitamean posted:Nidhogg's eye absorbs Lahabrea (?) You’re misremembering a bit, the WoL uses nidhogg’s eye to kill Igeyorm in conjunction with the auracite, but Lahabrea gets killed by Thordan directly, who uses the second eye to power himself up and just brute forces the matter with primal strength before eating his aether, because that’s how primals do.
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Sep 15, 2020 23:11
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the precedence for Lahabrea's death is the sahagin chief getting eaten by Leviathan
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Sep 15, 2020 23:20
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the amount of aether elder dragons have is truly astonishing. Between them, we see Nidhogg's eyes: -fight a pitched battle against another dragon eye (the aery fight vs nidhogg) -summon a calamity-level primal (thordan) with enough left over that thordan believes he can exist as a primal indefinitely just using the aether in the eye, not needing to absorb it from the land -kill two ascians, including one unsundered, by matching them aether for aether -fight a pitched battle against each other (thordan fight) -reconstruct an elder dragon body out of nothing -fight another pitched battle against another elder dragon eye (final steps of faith) -summon another calamity-level primal (shinryu)
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Sep 15, 2020 23:26
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To be fair I think the eyes get topped off a couple times, from thordan eating lahabrea/his arther presumably collapsing back into it upon dying, etc
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Sep 15, 2020 23:28
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multijoe posted:I don't know the finer details of Garlean aether deprivation lore but I reckon you could make a pretty good fight out of a legendary field commander who becomes a primal of themselves after you initially defeat them through the sheer faith their troops in them, like a positive version of Garuda's origin This was my first guess about Zenos way back in Stormblood, and I'm still kind of disappointed it didn't happen.
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Sep 16, 2020 00:05
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do we know exactly what laws of reality were changed/rewritten by Zodiark? i wonder how that whole ordeal changed life on other planets.
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Sep 16, 2020 00:16
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cheetah7071 posted:Do we know which ascian was responsible for Bahamut? I almost wonder if it was Emet-Selch, hoping that these unsundered aliens would be worthy inheritors of the star and he can finally give up and rest, only to be disappointed again Lahabrea was the chief Ascian of the Source, so probably him
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Sep 16, 2020 00:16
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Onmi posted:But they didn't, they didn't turn to a Primal, they turned to their own ingenuity. Are you loving kidding me with this poo poo, 90% of our ability to survive nonsense is based on sucking the teat of the big crystal mom. The only reason that Bahamut didn't go and cause a real Calamity is that the Circle of Knowing organized a giant prayer circle that worked. The resolution of the conflict with the Slyphs is Ramuh talking them into peace. Alexander totally saved our rear end from Alexander, and by extension the entire future by helping people figure out time travel. And on and on and on. The current raid series is "Man, the First is hosed up.....LETS SUMMON A SERIES OF PRIMALS TO FIX EVERYTHING!". They are just a tool, and they are whatever you believe them to be. Also Darth Walrus posted:Speaking of music, have we talked about the lyrics to To the Edge? They're pretty Yeah this song is as rad as it seemed to be on first hearing it.
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Sep 16, 2020 01:35
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Waffleman_ posted:It's the last story in the arc revolving around the primals Hydaelyn and Zodiark, not necessarily the last one taking place on the planet Hydaelyn. I think there's enough crumbs of locations outside the Three Great Continents to fill a couple more expansions after that. At a bare-rear end minimum, people are gonna want to visit Meracydia. We've had so many lore crumbs of possibilities for fantastic adventures over there that it almost feels like a waste to not go.
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Sep 16, 2020 04:21
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Countblanc posted:do we know exactly what laws of reality were changed/rewritten by Zodiark? i wonder how that whole ordeal changed life on other planets. I'd think it was just local to the world we're on, where it did something about whatever the hell was making the Ancients go crazy and summon monsters uncontrollably. I mean, whatever the hell that is would be an expansion hook all on its own.
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Sep 16, 2020 12:06
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Darth Walrus posted:I do think it's an inevitability that 6.0 will feature us facing down a Garlean primal. We've pushed them too hard and shaken their sense of self-worth too hard for any other outcome. Yeah, I know they don't have magic, but they're getting better and better at finding creative/horrifying solutions to that little problem. Zenos graciously sacrifices half the Garlean populace to make the other half Resonant.
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Sep 16, 2020 15:37
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Countblanc posted:do we know exactly what laws of reality were changed/rewritten by Zodiark? i wonder how that whole ordeal changed life on other planets. I would presume at a minimum it probably was "life cant be made without actively intending to" considering accidental nightmare beasts was what made him needed. Actually wasn't it a case that reality was unraveling because of the sound? Perhaps he just put things back into order like before and reinforced it, like a supreme cosmic repairman.
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Sep 16, 2020 18:42
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I do wish there had been more interaction between Ascians and dragons, mainly Midgardsormr. I imagine he can empathize with their grief for their lost world given his was blown up by Omega (right?). And since he's also an immortal superbeing.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:11
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Just to be pedantic, Midgardsomr's world is still there, just rendered uninhabitable to some extent. Ishgardian Astrologians use it to predict the movements of the dravanian horde.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:39
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Do we know why it's uninhabitable? Maybe the dragons destroyed it.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:43
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Pretty sure that was just Omega, or at the very least the war against it left it that way.
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Sep 16, 2020 19:49
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Cross-posting from the main thread since people can actually talk about it here, the new Tales from the Shadows is up, and it owns: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/special/tales_from_the_shadows/sidestory_08/#sidestory_08
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