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Professor Beetus
Apr 12, 2007

They can fight us
But they'll never Beetus
Generally speaking, I think a better take is Ardbert returning to the lifestream of the First and eventually reincarnated as another shard of Azem who will be able to come back around and be a big drat hero again.

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No Dignity
Oct 15, 2007

Eimi posted:

I prefer Yoshi P's take, and the hints left after the fight that the reason we actually survived isn't rejoining with Ardbert, but because Emet healed us as his final act.

I don't follow; we survived the lightwarden aether, then we fought Emet and *then* he died, how could his final act have helped us half an hour earlier when he was earnestly trying to kill us?

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014


quote:

“So of course, since Zenos is a Reaper, he would obviously be using an avatar,” he continued. “Zenos only friend is the Warrior of Light so in that respect maybe his avatar is some sort of variation of our Warrior of Light. (laughing)" -Yoshi-P, shitposter

Source: https://www.nme.com/news/gaming-news/naoki-yoshida-has-teased-the-reason-zenos-is-a-reaper-in-endwalker-3068718

Alright here's my dumb poo poo theory. We're going to have three Void protagonists. The first two are Unukalhai and Cylva, and the voidsent Zenos made a pact with will be the third.

In the ShB role capstone, Unukalhai is trying to learn anything he can about the state of the 13th via his new boyfriend, and Cylva wants to tell you the truth about her crimes. But before they met you, their lives were the opposite of this. Unukalhai did whatever Elidibus told him, and Cylva lied to everyone. Meeting you was the turning point of their lives, basically.

We're in the old Japanese proverb of the Three Wise Monkeys. Unukalhai is Hear No Evil. Cylva is Speak No Evil. That leaves this guy:



And meeting you was the turning point of his life, too. He went from a world devoid of heroes, to meeting one.

Also, Arbert is definitely, 100% absorbed into your soul now, and you were permanently made stronger by the joining. I don't see any way to interpret it otherwise from what the game shows.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

I feel like of that was the twist YoshiP wouldn't have spoiled it

the_steve
Nov 9, 2005

We're always hiring!

Professor Beetus posted:

Generally speaking, I think a better take is Ardbert returning to the lifestream of the First and eventually reincarnated as another shard of Azem who will be able to come back around and be a big drat hero again.

Unfortunately, I think he sacrificed himself by fusing with us.

To try to draw a parallel with DBZ, we did the Piccolo/Kami fusion. There's still a part of him within us and it probably has a subtle influence on our personality, but for all intents and purposes, Ardbert is gone and has ceased to be, because he is and was a big drat hero and Minfilia wouldn't let him sacrifice himself to stop the Wave of Light because she suspected he'd be needed to sacrifice himself later to save the Shard/us.

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013

I will never log offshut up.


No Dignity posted:

I don't follow; we survived the lightwarden aether, then we fought Emet and *then* he died, how could his final act have helped us half an hour earlier when he was earnestly trying to kill us?

https://twitter.com/nash0k1desu/status/1430905107848175620

quote:

This was also conveyed in Hades' lines during the trial, and as well as after clearing it, in the cutscene where Light and Dark clashed at each other. As a result, perhaps the Light and Dark residing inside of WoL had reached an equilibrium? Meaning Emet-Selch had reached a certain conclusion..... So, I'd like you to take another look at those scenes, and perhaps you may reach a different interpretation. But of course, I can't quite say that this is THE answer.

No Dignity
Oct 15, 2007


That still doesn't imply Emet healed us, or even if he did how healing us after we killed him allowed us to get back up and kill him to begin with, it just doesn't make any sense as a chain of events.

Lord_Magmar
Feb 24, 2015

"Welcome to pound town, Slifer slacker!"


Ardbert gives us the Aetheric density to bear the Lightwardens Light, Emet-Selch helps cleanse us of it.

That seems pretty easy to me, he intentionally matched his dark to our light to nullify them both would be the charitable version.

No Dignity
Oct 15, 2007

Lord_Magmar posted:

Ardbert gives us the Aetheric density to bear the Lightwardens Light, Emet-Selch helps cleanse us of it.

That seems pretty easy to me, he intentionally matched his dark to our light to nullify them both would be the charitable version.

He was coming for the WoL up until the moment he had a hole through his chest, and he's like the darkiest dark guy in the world anyway. I think that beam clash was just a beam clash, any deliberate act of mercy whilst he was in the middle of losing his life-or-death battle really seems like a reach. He was gracious in defeat afetrwards but that was only after the WoL had already discharged an apocalypse through his chest

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!
I still think any theory that insists Unukalhai and Cylva are going to be a big part of the 6.x content is not going to work out because they aren't going to bring those characters in out of nowhere and they're not going to force people to do all the role quests and a bunch of Heavensward EXs for it to make sense.

Ibram Gaunt
Jul 22, 2009

Blockhouse posted:

I still think any theory that insists Unukalhai and Cylva are going to be a big part of the 6.x content is not going to work out because they aren't going to bring those characters in out of nowhere and they're not going to force people to do all the role quests for it to make sense.

Not like they forced people to do 30-50 DRG before they could start HW.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

Ibram Gaunt posted:

Not like they forced people to do 30-50 DRG before they could start HW.

Sure but you don't necessarily need the context of who Estinien is before you do that plotline. You have no control over what that character is up to, and what little you know about him from the Dragoon storyline doesn't really matter - most of his development is in Heavensward.

That's not how things would work with those two, especially when one (or both of them) are on the First.

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014


You get the whole group together and Utrianger gives a powerpoint presentation about who these people are. If you've already met them, he acknowledges it. Done

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

honk honk
College Slice
I posted this as a guess of how they might handle quest status if they wanted to include them. It's kind of lame but significantly less lame than not using those characters in a void storyline, imo

cheetah7071 posted:

I think it'll probably end up being kind of lame for players who did warring triad but not the shb role quests, but it's probably fine

if I had to guess, it'll be something like

player hasn't done anything
Y'shtola: now that we've tested our planar portals with the first, let's get to work restoring the void
Cylva and Unulkuhai: I couldn't help but overhear

player has done the warring triad only
Y'shtola: now that we've tested our planar portals with the first, let's get to work restoring the void
Unulkuhai: I couldn't help but overhear. Also I'm on the first now, somehow

player has done shb role quests only
Y'shtola: now that we've tested our planar portals with the first, let's get to work restoring the void. Let's ask Cylva for help
Cylva: I'd love to help. Also let me introduce you to Unulkuhai

player has done everything
Y'shtola: now that we've tested our planar portals with the first, let's get to work restoring the void. Let's ask Cylva and Unulkuhai for help
Cylva and Unulkuhai: We'd love to help



It's like, kind of lame? but works about as well as Estinien.

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013

I will never log offshut up.


I mean classic video game trick, bring in a new character who absolutely wouldn't know who they are (like does G'raha really know them?) so then you explain them to the new character, and thus the new players as well.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Blockhouse posted:

I still think any theory that insists Unukalhai and Cylva are going to be a big part of the 6.x content is not going to work out because they aren't going to bring those characters in out of nowhere and they're not going to force people to do all the role quests and a bunch of Heavensward EXs for it to make sense.

They made Omega central to the plot. Same for Alexander. They locked Bozja as a whole behind Alliance Raids. They absolutely xan have them show up without you.

Also prior to the change G'raha Tia.

Super No Vacancy
Jul 26, 2012

I love when they do the little in game powerpoints

TheWorldsaStage
Sep 10, 2020

Hell they didn't even have Gaia appear with Ryne in EW because she's a side quest character.

hopeandjoy
Nov 28, 2014



Lord_Magmar posted:

Ardbert gives us the Aetheric density to bear the Lightwardens Light, Emet-Selch helps cleanse us of it.

That seems pretty easy to me, he intentionally matched his dark to our light to nullify them both would be the charitable version.

What cleansed us of the Light was creating a big gently caress off axe from all the Lightwardens, which we then used to kill Emet-Selch. This is pretty explicit? Ardbert's sacrifice gave us more aetheric capacity so we didn't turn, then we beat up Emet-Selch with the help of seven people G'raha summoned, and then our friends pinned him half down with Auracite while we turned five Lightwardens into an Axe of Light to kill Emet with.

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014


I don't see where you're getting that Emet-Selch cleansed or healed or helped us in any way at that point (besides standing still long enough for us to blast him with a planet's worth of light aether)

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

ImpAtom posted:

They made Omega central to the plot. Same for Alexander. They locked Bozja as a whole behind Alliance Raids. They absolutely xan have them show up without you.

Also prior to the change G'raha Tia.

Omega and Alexander are "central to the plot" but no characters from those actually appear if you haven't done them. There's only vague gestures towards those things maybe having happened. There is zero mention of anything from the Omega raids in Ultima Thule if you've never completed them. Bozja is optional content, not a MSQ. And Cylva (and Unukalhai possibly) are still on the First, a place that only you can access and need to ferry people back and forth from, and I can't imagine them spending a big chunk of patch MSQ time on you UPS driving people you may have never met before across the Rift.

G'raha was the focal point of an expansion. They realized how weird it was that people might not know who the character is and went back to make Crystal Tower mandatory. There's no indication Cylva and Unukalhal need to be involved in the 6.x storyline - a story that so far seems to be squarely focused on Vritra and Y'shtola - at all other than people wanting them to be.

They could do it, but it'd be incredibly sloppy and I don't think they're likely to.

No Dignity
Oct 15, 2007

They should canonise Gaia just because though

Super No Vacancy
Jul 26, 2012

They are almost certainly going to solve the problem of non-WOLs hopping between shards, possibly before the next expansion

Macaluso
Sep 23, 2005

I HATE THAT HEDGEHOG, BROTHER!
The Omega thing is weird because it's important to the Ragnarok getting you to Ultima Thule if you do it but if you don't I guess Cid just has a space epiphany one day

Electric Phantasm
Apr 7, 2011

YOSPOS

Macaluso posted:

The Omega thing is weird because it's important to the Ragnarok getting you to Ultima Thule if you do it but if you don't I guess Cid just has a space epiphany one day

The WoL scribbled some engine plans on the goggles they gave Cid in the past.

Qwertycoatl
Dec 31, 2008

It's plausible that Cid would have ideas about how to make cool space engines even without having done the Omega raids.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

Blockhouse posted:

Omega and Alexander are "central to the plot" but no characters from those actually appear if you haven't done them. There's only vague gestures towards those things maybe having happened. There is zero mention of anything from the Omega raids in Ultima Thule if you've never completed them. Bozja is optional content, not a MSQ. And Cylva (and Unukalhai possibly) are still on the First, a place that only you can access and need to ferry people back and forth from, and I can't imagine them spending a big chunk of patch MSQ time on you UPS driving people you may have never met before across the Rift.

G'raha was the focal point of an expansion. They realized how weird it was that people might not know who the character is and went back to make Crystal Tower mandatory. There's no indication Cylva and Unukalhal need to be involved in the 6.x storyline - a story that so far seems to be squarely focused on Vritra and Y'shtola - at all other than people wanting them to be.

They could do it, but it'd be incredibly sloppy and I don't think they're likely to.

Alexander and Omega are referenced in The Twinning no matter what.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

ImpAtom posted:

Alexander and Omega are referenced in The Twinning no matter what.

They're referenced in a way that would mean nothing to people who haven't done that content. There is no explicit "oh yeah the WoL did these things" callout, like not even variable quest dialogue if you had done Omega and Alexander. Hugely different from optional content characters appearing and starring in a patch cycle main story. That would be more like if Mide suddenly appeared at the end of The Twinning.

Qwertycoatl
Dec 31, 2008

They should have laid the groundwork like with Lorens in the physical dps role quests who says "I'll probably be around for the MSQ later, but I'll pretend not to know you for some incredibly flimsy reasons"

TheWorldsaStage
Sep 10, 2020

It's kind of weird, if you're like me and don't really do 8-man's and never did Bozja Cid and Nero just loving disappear from the plot for the most part. Cid has his one msq cutscene per expac.

Blockhouse
Sep 7, 2014

You Win!

TheWorldsaStage posted:

It's kind of weird, if you're like me and don't really do 8-man's and never did Bozja Cid and Nero just loving disappear from the plot for the most part. Cid has his one msq cutscene per expac.

I was about to say "oh right Nero joining Ironworks that's an example of an optional thing coming back in the MSQ" but then I remembered the cutscene that established that was a stinger at the end of base game Stormblood

Super No Vacancy
Jul 26, 2012

they should make all the raids and trial series required :) and trustable i guess

TheWorldsaStage
Sep 10, 2020

Super No Vacancy posted:

they should make all the raids and trial series required :) and trustable i guess

That would be really nice for the (I'm sure) minority like me. Either make everyone do the 8 man's so I dont feel like the only dumbass or let me get the story without watching a YouTube video where the wol is a catgirl.

Not gonna happen but I'm unsyncing Alexander as much as I can rn so I'm getting there.

Valentin
Sep 16, 2012

Qwertycoatl posted:

They should have laid the groundwork like with Lorens in the physical dps role quests who says "I'll probably be around for the MSQ later, but I'll pretend not to know you for some incredibly flimsy reasons"

he does this the very next time he sees you in the role quest capstone and his indeed very flimsy efforts feel like a possible recurring bit

DanielCross
Aug 16, 2013

TheWorldsaStage posted:

That would be really nice for the (I'm sure) minority like me. Either make everyone do the 8 man's so I dont feel like the only dumbass or let me get the story without watching a YouTube video where the wol is a catgirl.

Not gonna happen but I'm unsyncing Alexander as much as I can rn so I'm getting there.

May I ask why? Coils I understand, that's not exactly friendly content, but all the other 8-man raids are super easy to do with randos. They're in a roulette without Coils for a reason.

FuturePastNow
May 19, 2014


TheWorldsaStage posted:

That would be really nice for the (I'm sure) minority like me. Either make everyone do the 8 man's so I dont feel like the only dumbass or let me get the story without watching a YouTube video where the wol is a catgirl.

Not gonna happen but I'm unsyncing Alexander as much as I can rn so I'm getting there.

Honestly. Just queue up for normal difficulty optional raids and trials in the duty finder. They're all designed to be done by eight people who've never met and will never see each other again. You'll get seven people a free second chance point and they'll be happy.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007

It is trivially possible to do every bit of content with someone floortanking, so don't feel bad about 'dragging people down' or whatever. If you try to contribute you're helping.

No Dignity
Oct 15, 2007

TheWorldsaStage posted:

That would be really nice for the (I'm sure) minority like me. Either make everyone do the 8 man's so I dont feel like the only dumbass or let me get the story without watching a YouTube video where the wol is a catgirl.

Not gonna happen but I'm unsyncing Alexander as much as I can rn so I'm getting there.

You're playing an MMO, you really should inure yourself to the neccesity of playing with other people. As others have said doing normal 8 man content is not any kind of deal, you're just letting performance anxiety ruin what should be an enjoyable casual experience

TheWorldsaStage
Sep 10, 2020

DanielCross posted:

May I ask why? Coils I understand, that's not exactly friendly content, but all the other 8-man raids are super easy to do with randos. They're in a roulette without Coils for a reason.

ImpAtom posted:

It is trivially possible to do every bit of content with someone floortanking, so don't feel bad about 'dragging people down' or whatever. If you try to contribute you're helping.

ImpAtom hit it on the head. I play BLM and all the memes and jokes on reddit and twitter have made me way too insecure, even when I've been playing for years. I just know I'll be on the floor a few times and it's just painful lol.

I know it's bull and I need to start DF poo poo. The catbook point was a good one!

No Dignity posted:

You're playing an MMO, you really should inure yourself to the neccesity of playing with other people. As others have said doing normal 8 man content is not any kind of deal, you're just letting performance anxiety ruin what should be an enjoyable casual experience

Absolutely. Thanks for affirming!

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GiantRockFromSpace
Mar 1, 2019

Just Cram It


Yeah, like trials are dead easy and fast content, and a lot of players forget about how they went so they might as well be new players.

Dungeons are the actual problem since veterans by now have ran them 1000x times and just want to speedrun them to get them over with. Good thing the devs are focusing on making them soloable with trusts!

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