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a cartoon duck
Sep 5, 2011



Hydaelin's summoners didn't object to the Zodiark plan on moral grounds, but simply because they felt it was insufficient in preventing another Final Days. as stated by her summoners, she exists to bind Zodiark, and since primals are entirely defined by their summoners' wishes it's entirely possible she'd try to stop any attempts at permanently destroying Zodiark because that would invalidate her reason for being

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Badger of Basra
Jul 25, 2007



Wait I thought they explicitly did object to the plan on moral grounds

thetoughestbean
Apr 27, 2013

Do not attempt to interact with the hogs.


Badger of Basra posted:

Wait I thought they explicitly did object to the plan on moral grounds

They did. I don’t know where the “it won’t prevent another calamity” is coming from

AstrialJam
Apr 27, 2013


thetoughestbean posted:

They did. I don’t know where the “it won’t prevent another calamity” is coming from

They might have, but one of the summoners says something like "the fools of the Convocation don't realize Zodiark is just a temporary solution" in 5.2.

Sinteres
Mar 26, 2004
Please don't be rude, it upsets me when I'm trying to be smug

AstrialJam posted:

They might have, but one of the summoners says something like "the fools of the Convocation don't realize Zodiark is just a temporary solution" in 5.2.

I always figured Zodiark was going to ultimately extinguish them all by continually demanding more sacrifice, so while he may have saved them from the original problem, they now needed a solution to their new one. Even if it wasn't going to be quite that total, Zodiark enslaving his summoners by tempering them was pretty ominous too.

Sinteres fucked around with this message at 17:54 on Sep 22, 2020

a cartoon duck
Sep 5, 2011



"By the summoning of Zodiark we have been granted a reprieve. Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom"
"Nay. Should we continue down this path, our fate will be the same. I said as much to the Convocation, of course, but the stubborn fools turned a deaf ear to my warnings.

"I shall not speak ill of the Convocation -- they too seek only to secure the future of our star. Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution. That being the case, we must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethen? If so, I see no further reason to demur. Let us bring forth the Light that shall ever after keep the Darkness in check."

if the whole sacrificing new life to bring back the old thing was a problem to the Hydaelin faction, they did not say so and it is at best a secondary concern to the Zodiark plan being a band-aid solution in their eyes.

Sinteres
Mar 26, 2004
Please don't be rude, it upsets me when I'm trying to be smug

When the whole point was summoning the Light to keep the Darkness in check, to me that says they're concerned with what the Darkness is doing. We've seen no indication that The Sound or whatever the gently caress the original problem was continued to be an issue, but that Zodiark itself had become the new threat to their civilization. It was a temporary reprieve in the sense that the solution was now itself a problem, even if the original problem was no longer an issue.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

quote:

Yet immutable as the laws He has woven may seem, they will not serve to forestall our doom.

quote:

Yet it is plain they will not countenance a permanent solution.

Seems pretty clear they don't think Zodiark's rewriting the laws of reality are enough of a solution, and they're not permanent. They don't say anything about Zodiark being worse, or Zodiark leading to new problems.

Mister Olympus
Oct 31, 2011

Buzzard, Who Steals From Dead Bodies


Is this going to be a midgardsormr thing where someone looks at other languages and they're super straightforward about it

e: actually what's the cutscene called/where is it in the book. I'll switch my client to german

Sinteres
Mar 26, 2004
Please don't be rude, it upsets me when I'm trying to be smug

Orcs and Ostriches posted:

Seems pretty clear they don't think Zodiark's rewriting the laws of reality are enough of a solution, and they're not permanent. They don't say anything about Zodiark being worse, or Zodiark leading to new problems.

When has it ever been suggested that Hydaelyn did anything other than counter Zodiark though? And the sundering of course, but I always wondered if that was actually the cost of summoning her and not just a side effect of her battle with Zodiark.

erenoyo
Jun 30, 2019


I believe it is Hythlodaeus that says that the Hydylaen summoners objected to sacrificing the new life to revive the Amaurotians and summoned her to stop it

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Sinteres posted:

When has it ever been suggested that Hydaelyn did anything other than counter Zodiark though? And the sundering of course, but I always wondered if that was actually the cost of summoning her and not just a side effect of her battle with Zodiark.

The sundering fundamentally changed existence, likely far more than Zodiark's work did. It probably goes well beyond just defeating Zodiark and more into a long term solution for life.

Sinteres
Mar 26, 2004
Please don't be rude, it upsets me when I'm trying to be smug

Orcs and Ostriches posted:

The sundering fundamentally changed existence, likely far more than Zodiark's work did. It probably goes well beyond just defeating Zodiark and more into a long term solution for life.

I don't think the sundering has ever been presented as a good thing, and will be surprised if that happens. I mean it certainly wasn't any solution for the Ascians other than a Final Solution since it tore all their souls apart.

cheetah7071
Oct 20, 2010

rattle rattle





College Slice

the sundering was real bad, and the fact that it was done to prevent a different real bad thing doesn't mean it wasn't horrendous itself

CharlieFoxtrot
Mar 26, 2007


https://twitter.com/StormYorha/stat...200503462027265

Sinteres
Mar 26, 2004
Please don't be rude, it upsets me when I'm trying to be smug

I'm pretty sure the Sundering was presented as an accidental casualty of the fight between Zodiark and Hydaelyn, though I think there's a decent chance we see it revealed as deliberate on Hydaelyn's part/possibly what she did to draw energy to fuel herself for the fight.


lmao

Sinteres fucked around with this message at 19:59 on Sep 22, 2020

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I thought the sundering was portrayed as deliberate, but also the only way to stop Zodiark. It's never been presented as a good thing for the world though, only a bad thing for Zodiark. Who, to be fair, is kind of technically the embodiment of the world.

Like "sundering the world" is straight-up Hydaelyn's main superpower. You also see this in the Eden 8 fight, both in the phase transition and also all her moves in Hydaelyn form.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 21:22 on Sep 22, 2020

Rand Brittain
Mar 24, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

In fairness, the world's hub cities have gotten way more interesting since the Sundering.

HenryEx
Mar 24, 2009

...your cybernetic implants, the only beauty in that meat you call "a body"...


Grimey Drawer

I think that's more of a case of the ancients' architect sucking

Eox
Jun 20, 2010

sometimes the gap i want to close is my entire hp bar



Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

0.000% of Communism has been built. Evil child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit-eating grin.

So I just finished 5.3 finally. Really happy that G'raha managed to avoid not one but two death flags.

I hope that the plot manages to finagle Ryne coming over somehow, though, because she seemed to really work well with the rest of the group.

edit: Oh, someone posted a picture of a lalafel holding the staff with Exarch, was curious about that

ImpAtom posted:

He was a primal dedicated to spreading heroism as a counterpart to the Ascian's villainy in order to achieve their overall goals though.

How does this work exactly? I never figured out how this would help the Ascians in any way. Isn't the only thing important to them managing to cause the big catastrophes by making one of the shard worlds overflow with a particular type of aether?

Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 07:02 on Sep 23, 2020

CYBEReris
Dec 15, 2007



Ytlaya posted:

How does this work exactly? I never figured out how this would help the Ascians in any way. Isn't the only thing important to them managing to cause the big catastrophes by making one of the shard worlds overflow with a particular type of aether?

they're trying to create controlled opposition. the escalation of conflict heroes engage in will do a lot of the work in preparing a calamity while also counterbalancing to prevent a total loss like what happened with the void. unsundered ascians aren't killable by normal means so they can play heel and take a fall as many times as they want if it furthers their goals.

CharlieFoxtrot
Mar 26, 2007


CYBEReris posted:

they're trying to create controlled opposition.

...just like Obama...

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

0.000% of Communism has been built. Evil child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit-eating grin.

When was it mentioned about Ardbert and party killing a couple Ascians? Saw some posts mentioning this, but I don't remember it.

CharlieFoxtrot
Mar 26, 2007


Ytlaya posted:

When was it mentioned about Ardbert and party killing a couple Ascians? Saw some posts mentioning this, but I don't remember it.

The capstone quest for the ShB role quest mentions it I believe

Edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hDTq5oLcRY#t=1935s

Dedekind
Sep 6, 2003

The blasphemer, uncontrite, must be punished mightily.

Orcs and Ostriches posted:

Seems pretty clear they don't think Zodiark's rewriting the laws of reality are enough of a solution, and they're not permanent. They don't say anything about Zodiark being worse, or Zodiark leading to new problems.

It seems fairly clear to me that as we're going to more exploration of the primal natures of Zodiark and Hydaelyn. Zodiark is described to us as the "will of the star", but that doesn't really fill in the whole picture. With Ga Bu, we've seen that personalities and drivers of primals reflect the motivations of the summoners, and aren't just embodiments of Platonic ideals. In Zodiark's case, it seems like a big part of its fundamental concept is the idea of (external) salvation through sacrifice. That being the case, it follows that Zodiark can't or won't produce "permanent" solutions: it requires that there be crises that lead to demands for salvation, possibly up to and including its tempered followers manufacturing situations where Zodiark can be argued to be the only option. To some extent, we see that in Elidibus' MO: introducing monsters and problems such that there is a demand for heroes to appear.

The nature of Hydaelyn is a lot less clear. My pet theory at the moment is that she is something like the Platonic ideal of "death to Zodiark" combined with a motivation of "humanity can take care of itself." This is why, outside the Sundering itself, she is largely a passive actor: even in crisis situations, she can't act directly without contradicting her own nature. What we see over and over is that the most she does is provide tools for the use of those who have managed to reach out to her through their own abilities.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Dedekind posted:

The nature of Hydaelyn is a lot less clear. My pet theory at the moment is that she is something like the Platonic ideal of "death to Zodiark" combined with a motivation of "humanity can take care of itself." This is why, outside the Sundering itself, she is largely a passive actor: even in crisis situations, she can't act directly without contradicting her own nature. What we see over and over is that the most she does is provide tools for the use of those who have managed to reach out to her through their own abilities.

I thought it was pretty spelled out that she was summon "to stop Zodiark" and therefore that's what she does. Like I wouldn't even really call that less clear than Zodiark's nature.

Ytlaya
Nov 13, 2005

0.000% of Communism has been built. Evil child-murdering billionaires still rule the world with a shit-eating grin.

MadFriarAvelyn posted:

Everyone keeps saying Elidibus was just some kid, but he's got a pretty deep voice for one.

Do balls drop in the womb for Amourantians or is puberty for them a terrifying process where your voice slowly gets replaced with Charlie Brown adult noises?

It fits better with the JP voices. His JP voice could pass for a teenager's voice and has a generally "immature" sort of sound to it.

Chillgamesh
Jul 29, 2014





Ytlaya posted:

It fits better with the JP voices. His JP voice could pass for a teenager's voice and has a generally "immature" sort of sound to it.

Also he's not really the Amaurotine who became Elidibus any more anyway - he's more like a living wish than a person when we meet him.

Dedekind
Sep 6, 2003

The blasphemer, uncontrite, must be punished mightily.

Clarste posted:

I thought it was pretty spelled out that she was summon "to stop Zodiark" and therefore that's what she does. Like I wouldn't even really call that less clear than Zodiark's nature.

I agree that is her underlying concept, but my point is that we know that the manifestation of those concepts can vary significantly depending on the intent of the summoner (e.g. Titan). If there was nothing to Hydaelyn beyond “stop Zodiark,” why did she not simply kill the Unsundered ages ago? We know primals can do so, that fragments of her power now are sufficient to oppose Ascians, and that she is weaker now than she was around the time of the first Calamity. My feeling is that there’s something in her “personality” overlying that core concept that explains why she chooses to work through WoLs rather than acting directly.

I mean, I’m most likely utterly wrong; the team are much better at storytelling than I am so I don’t have faith in my ability to anticipate them. But by the same token, it’s also why I think we will end up exploring nuance in Hydaelyn’s nature.

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


CharlieFoxtrot posted:

The capstone quest for the ShB role quest mentions it I believe

Edit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hDTq5oLcRY#t=1935s

I think it also comes up in passing in the original Warriors of Darkness story.

Veotax
May 16, 2006




Yeah, I think when you first meet them you get an Echo of them killing an Ascian

Ziddar
Jul 24, 2003

Time Travel: Not Even Once



Well, maybe a few times


Ytlaya posted:

edit: Oh, someone posted a picture of a lalafel holding the staff with Exarch, was curious about that


Just to reiterate:


G'raha accommodates even the smallest of heroes.

jokes
Dec 20, 2012
jokes




There are no small heroes, just unfinished tales of heroism!

Jetrauben
Sep 7, 2011

Yelling at clouds.

G'raha is, himself, a very smol hero.

Its Rinaldo
Aug 13, 2010

COUGS BINCH


Jetrauben posted:

G'raha is, himself, a very smol hero.

https://clips.twitch.tv/BashfulCoweringTildeTBCheesePull

Cephas
May 11, 2009

Shape Shift With Me


am i the only one who was extremely surprised that when the WoL gathers all of the scions' souls in auracite and crosses back to the Source, we didn't get a HOME..... RIDING HOOOOOOMMMEEEEE...... scene?

CharlieFoxtrot
Mar 26, 2007


Because of the debate (lol) I've been listening to "To the Edge" and the specific line, "On hands and knees we pray to gods we've never seen" has made me tear up uncontrollably

I am really relating to Amaurot right now

Itzena
Aug 2, 2006

Nothing will improve the way things currently are.

Slime TrainerS

https://mobile.twitter.com/FF_XIV_E...163946040033282

https://mobile.twitter.com/FF_XIV_E...176673475108865

Wonder if they're previewing a new class with that bloke? Might also link back to Ran'jit, too.

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Cephas
May 11, 2009

Shape Shift With Me


I finished 5.3 a few weeks ago and I am still thinking about how great the Shadowbringers music is. Graha Tia is such a good devoted boy and Eternal Wind somehow captures his efforts and sacrifices and rewards so well. The way it's used as a dramatic heroic guitar solo in the Shadowbringers theme is so cool, since both the main story's climax and the 5.3 finale have him and the Warrior of Light working together to save the day.

Also, I adore the idea that for all this insane multi-dimensional poo poo that involves a species of Q progenitor gods, a time-space traveling crystal ark, an underwater copy of a utopian city, and face-eating apocalypse angels--the ultimate payoff for all of it is that this bookish catboy, who loves stories about heroic deeds but had to give up on having any kind of free life, gets to finally just be your friend and go on adventures with you. It's the most Final Fantasy friendship-and-found-family thing ever and I love it

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