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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Arist posted:

See, I guess I missed the bit where it was implied (or stated outright) that Elidibus is a primal. Where was that?

Y'shtola reveals it straight up.

It's also the entire point of his plan. He is, effectively, the primal of heroism. By creating more faith in Warriors of Light he ended up empowering himself because he effectively the source for Warrior of Light as a shorthand for heroism, which is why it comes up so often and in multiple shards. (Since both the First and 13th had Warriors of Light too and we clearly see plenty more.)

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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Jetrauben posted:

I was under the impression Elidibus was mimicking the iconic vision of heroism, not that he had been the OG Hero?

He was not the original Warrior of Light, any more than Ifrit or Garuda are the original basis.

He was a primal dedicated to spreading heroism as a counterpart to the Ascian's villainy in order to achieve their overall goals though.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Is there anyone who has done 3.5 but hasn't done the Eden stuff yet? I'm curious if they actually adapt for that or if Thancred and Urianger just get to exist in plot time for it. I know the plot namedrops Gaia if you've already done it.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Waffleman_ posted:

It'll probably just be plot time.

Maybe but it'd be a bit odd for someone coming in once everything is done because they could very well do all of Eden before hitting 3.5 in the story and I assume they'll have something to address that

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Chillgamesh posted:

That little solo quest rocked but I wonder if they're actually gonna do anything more with G-Warrior or if it was a one-off





They talk about it getting upgrades later on so I suspect we'll get at least one or two more Duties with it.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Its Rinaldo posted:

WoL see's how thirsty he is for them and doesn't want to encourage it.

The WoL basically ended the expansion running hand in hand with him and giggling.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



corgski posted:

I mean, sounds like they just drank their fuel.

You have to help them build a brewery which is also used to make fuel.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Cleretic posted:

And she still didn't get character development in either of them (Stormblood was more 'showcasing development she got off-screen'). If anything I'd say G'raha's already ahead of her.

I think you missed some large chunks of Shadowbringers.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Cleretic posted:

Oh, I firmly remember Tesleen, but... the game didn't seem to want to. Or at least didn't seem to have a lot to do with that. And outside of that she didn't really get a massive amount of spotlight.

It's fair enough that in an expansion that tried to fit in all the Scions rather than just a couple, someone still ended up with less spotlight. But Alisaie is also absolutely right to complain that she didn't get any real personal development.

... It gets brought up multiple times throughout the game and is the focus a chunk of the post-MSQ plot.

She gets more development time and focus than Y'shtola and Urianger.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Cleretic posted:

Yeah, and I think that's going to start paying dividends soon. If I had to make predictions I think we'll see more of that as a focus in 5.4 and 5.5, possibly even going through the next expansion as her big Thing, but right now we're only in the phase of 'seeds for a solution got planted', they haven't done a whole lot with it yet. It's just been the few scenes with Ga Bu and then like, one cutscene in 5.1

Comparing Alisaie in ShB to Urianger is hard, because the big advancement for him was never that he got new things to do, it was that he got things to do at all, this is the first time he got promoted to 'main cast'. But if you think Alisaie got more stuff to do in Shadowbringers (and new stuff, at that) than Y'shtola... well, I wanna know what Shadowbringers you played.

She gets a very personal connection to the Sin Eater plotline which lasts throughout the entire story and pays off right as the plot ends.

Y'shtola's plot is A) Getting kidnapped B) Exposition or C) Thirsty Catman, each with a side of snark.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Y'shtola has already made it clear she has no interest in little suns.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Its Rinaldo posted:

So is like Elidibus' soul just chilling in the Crystal Tower forever? I'm not sure how cool i am with that especially since it's somewhat ambiguous if he was a kid and the last moments we saw him was weeping for all those he lost and failed.

They had to die but I dunno if want to consign him to eternity bound to a tower.

The problem is that is the only way to actually kill an Ascian is to either seal them or effectively destroy them. Anything less and they just come back, which is probably doubly true for Elidibus because he wasn't a real Ascian, he was a Primal.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



CharlieFoxtrot posted:

Transporting bread across shards this patch had me thinking about aetherology questions

It seems like you can basically bring anything across, it just depends on if it is capable of remaining together after you do so. Living beings are a lot more complex than bread and thus are at a greater risk of dissolving. As long as you think of it as part of you then it should be able to come across.

The real question is: How does your Chocobo get across.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Its Rinaldo posted:

So correct me if I'm wrong but killing an Ascian means basically busting them up and sending them to the life stream, which is why I was concerned with Elidibus because it seemed like just sticking him in a box forever and not killing him.

Thematically, never dying and living forever seemed to be part of what made the Unsundered so awful

From what I understand:

Unsundered Ascians just return to the rift (the place the WoL sends you during the fight) where they chill out until they can make or possess a new body. As long as their body is killed they will effortlessly return assuming they have an option. (See: Emet-Selch) To kill an unsundered Ascian you need to not just kill them but effectively destroy their soul because they are so powerful that is the only option. You effectively have to erase them or they will come back. Elidibus isn't trapped but actively erased (IIRC they even mention his memories not coming along for the ride) and while the aether that made up his primal form might still be in the tower it isn't him anymore.

Jetrauben posted:

Good question. I feel like it's more satisfying if it's actually him, though?

I mean we seem to be Azem enough to count as a degree of continuity. We identify as Azem to a degree, we grieve for Amaurot, we even seem to have some sense of responsibility and ties to Ardbert's life. We are, and we are not. Reincarnation and personhood are complicated!

But yeah, the Ascian/immortal paradigm seems to be basically "your soul-body is strong enough it doesn't need a meat suit to hold itself together anymore, which means to kill you properly you need to have your soul-body broken down."

It is and isn't him. As we are told the shades of the Ancients were created by Emet and while they seemed to retain at least a portion of their own personalities they were shaped by him. From what we're shown the Emet during the big fight is Emet's shade of Emet. So it is really him in that it is him creating a version of himself, but it is not really him as it is a fading copy/clone.

ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Aug 13, 2020

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Jetrauben posted:

It sounded like even Sundered Ascians can't be properly killed without rupturing their soul's crunchy shell, though. Nabriales was sundered, I think?

Again I may be misremembering but from what I can recall

The are Unsundered Ascians and then varying degrees of Sundered Ascians. Stronger ones can reconstitute themselves by possessing other's bodies while weaker ones are basically killable but are replaced by grabbing one of their shards from another star.

Lahabrea did not need to possess new bodies but chose to do so anyway which apparently made him a total loser and actively weakened him.

It also makes Emet's behavior make a lot more sense when you realize that the only other true Unsundered Ascian was Lahabrea. Can you imagine how much that must have sucked?

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Mister Olympus posted:

I feel like whatever happened to make Zenos is a purely technological expression of the process of rejoining an ascian.

Zenos is a weird case in that it seems like for whatever reason he was born less-Sundered than most other people. He's always been freakishly strong and apparently also has always had dreams of the End of Days which is part of why he was a nihilistic shithead. He just tossed a an artificial Echo on top of that.

One thing they seem to strongly be doing is associating Zenos with the Beast of the Apocalypse, and the fact that he never achieved a natural Echo despite seeing the end of days in his dreams on a regular basis makes me wonder if they're building up to a reveal that Zenos is in some way an embodiment of the malformed beasts that ended the previous civilization. It would explain why he is so freakishly powerful to some degree.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



CharlieFoxtrot posted:

So what exactly happened in the Heroes' Gauntlet, then?

The proper summoning ritual brings people over entirely, which is what happens to the WoL and the others in the Hades trial. Botching it gets what happens to the other Scions, separating soul/mind from body, but there's still a tether.

Elidibus says he basically did a smash and grab on a bunch of heroes with their souls not even needing to be whole? Does that mean there are a bunch of people who are soul-damaged or whatever across the shards now

From what it was described rather than summoning the people themselves he basically opened a portal and went "I am a hero fighting the FORCES OF DARKNESS, lend me your energy" and when heroes did so he effectively molded those into Hero Egis and send them to kill you.

I doubt any of them are permanently scarred or anything, they just tried to help with a Spirit Bomb only for it turn out to be an rear end in a top hat in charge.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Orcs and Ostriches posted:

There's a line somewhere that implies Zodiark is imprisoned in the moon, or is the moon. Since Zodiark is sundered, I'd expect it's a different moon for each shard, but it's all a reflection of the same one from the source.


Bozja is near Ivalice I think. And quite the distance from Garlemald proper, so an airship heavy force would probably be useful.

It is stated in the Minfilia cutscene where she talks to you about the history of the battle between the two and also directly stated in the lorebook.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



YES bread posted:

everyone is so sick of villains with understandable motivations and tragic backstories. "please" theyre crying out, "just let me bunch a dude in a nazi uniform!!!"

They tried than and then a bunch of people started to agree with the guy in the Nazi uniform so hard they need to make a plotline about his children dying because of his actions to drive home how wrong he was.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Onmi posted:

So, Shiva Unreal battle report for the day. The first two runs ended at 100% when people left without even starting to fight. The second run ended at 80% when the concept of "Turn the sword" and "add phase" passed over people wearing i500 gear.

Run 3 actually went rather well, a new PUG, we got to 20% and died to enrage, no problem. We got to 18% next time but the party wiped. Final run ended at 50% It was a mostly fine run except I'm still not great at tank swapping and also the Raid leader insisted on having the entire raid run north for Sword phase to take the slash. Even after the Sword-Tank said "I can just turn it." Spoilers: No one ran north to take the cleave.

Conclusion: The Enrage is REALLY TIGHT and also if a Raid leader isn't a tank they really shouldn't determine how a tank handles a tank mechanic...

That is really strange. The enrage requirement didn't seem particularly harsh to me. I even had a run with a couple of deaths where we still didn't come close to Enrage.

Was someone not DPSing properly or something?

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



8 seconds for the entire party is a small price to play for trolling a tank

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



They might as well end the game there then because god knows if we could survive the blow of being beaten by a dude named Fandaniel in the crappiest body imaginable after we bodied both the last and strongest Ascian and their goddamn primal.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Eimi posted:

Feo Ul, like Ryne is too cool to be left behind.

Also I apologize if this has been brought up before, but I just found out about this thread, but the biggest disappointment for me with Shadowbringers is thus far being the warrior of darkness has meant nothing more than a linguistic trick of changing worlds. I really do still hope that it would be such a fundamental change that calling us a warrior of light anymore wouldn't work! Hell we even fight other WoL's though it's so bloodless it disappoints me too. We should've actually had to drat the heroes of other worlds to stop Elidibus.

I don't know, I love the reveals of the ascians, but us being Azem is just kind of boring because thus far Azem is just us...we've always been the magical murder hobo maverick, instead of really adding anything as a reveal. Just that you were totally awesome and you are now totally awesome and everyone loves you.

It would've been cool if along with the reveal of the ascians we see that Hydaelyn's goals aren't our goals too. And that we will have to become something 'different' to resolve this.

The entire point of becoming the Warrior of Darkness was the reveal that "Dark" and "Light" mean different things to different people. You are a hero of light to some people but to the Ascians you are a horrifying destroyer who is killing their chance of reviving their lost people. Elidibus wasn't just playacting. He genuinely viewed himself as a hero and you as the villain. Becoming the Warrior of Darkness didn't mean Being Evil but having to stand against people who, in their own mind, are just as justified as you in what they do and who fight just as hard.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Sinteres posted:

I think switching out Varis to bring Zenos back as the big bad is my least favorite plot twist in the game. Fighting the Empire as led by someone who actually gave a poo poo about it seemed fine to me.

I think it was necessary for it to break because the Empire was just a long term Ascian plot and it descending into civil war once the Ascians are gone makes a ton of sense considering the Garlean philosophy of fetishizing strength.

Zenos is the perfect encapsulation of the Garlean ideal. He is one of the strongest beings alive and can enforce his will through that strength and it ends up turning to poo poo because he doesn't care about anything but a fight.

Varis being slain by the embodiment of his philosophy (as well as his own son and kind of an Ascian) is the perfect way for him to go out.

It sucked when we didn't get to fight him but they resolved that.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Hunter Noventa posted:

The last thing we need is Zenos hijacking Sephirot, because with the extra arms he could use all his katanas at once.

Here me out.

A power multi armed fighter who likes to collect weapons.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Onmi posted:

I am a bit disappointed because Zenos's comment about not giving a poo poo about ruling and Varis's horrified look that he was about to be killed by his son, not for anything like power or greed, but simply because Varis was in the way of Zenos getting to fight the WoL again. Then again it's easy to take it back as Zenos is being forced onto the throne by Fandaniel and he's so utterly bored because he just does not care.

I think the major issue is that The WoL was basically faffing about in another world so much that Zenos had no real way to just force her to fight him. With the end of the most recent patch presumably that will stop being an issue.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007




I guess we know what the theme to Eden Raid's Great King Moggle Mog will be.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



I fully expect to get some Zeromus thing when we actually go to the Moon.

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Vitamean posted:

I'm glad for them and all, but aren't the Ascians still active in the alternate timeline?

I guess a new WoL will stand up when that time comes.

My honest bet is that they hosed up with Black Rose. Black Rose specifically targets aether and while we don't know what it does to Ascians it is entirely possible it wrecked Emet-Selch's poo poo. With him gone you're basically in the same position as now maybe plus a Warrior of Light

ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



A big part of it is that it involves things Ascians just can't or won't understand, including a weird primal who broke rules they assumed were unbreakable being reverse-engineered by 'lesser beings' using technology from space aliens. They are so focused on being the Best Society that it genuinely never occurred to them that other people could do things they can't.

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ImpAtom
May 24, 2007



Badger of Basra posted:

So if I'm understanding Gabranth's plan correctly, it's to stay away from Garlemald until it inevitably tears itself apart, then go back, take it over, and do the Empire, But Good?

He basically seems to be trying to solidify power so he can clean up in the aftermath."But Good" doesn't really seem to match his actual actions though.

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