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Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Jetrauben posted:

I do wonder if the Twelve are "just" the Convocation, or if the Convocation were in turn appealing to the same powers that the Twelve represent.

The Twelve are actually Thirteen, and there are Fourteen members of the convocation including Azem anyways. None of the other names link up that I can tell either.

I more expect that since Azem was a wanderer that traveled the world making friends, different people the world over would remember them, and they'd have a crew in each location.

I couldn't match up any of the signs on their stones to any of the current symbols of the twelve. Azeyma's still feature's a circle, but that's the only real simularity. I only have screenshots of a couple though.

erenoyo posted:

Why can't Elidibus remember? Emet-Selch didn't have much difficulty.

Elidibus is long dead, as the heart of Zodiark. Zodiark summoned him back as a primal to be the world's salvation. He exists only for his mission.

Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 01:13 on Aug 12, 2020

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Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Arist posted:

See, I guess I missed the bit where it was implied (or stated outright) that Elidibus is a primal. Where was that?

Right when Y'Shtola wakes up in Amaurot. She walks up to Eli and basically says, "So you're a primal, right." and he confirms.

Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 01:19 on Aug 12, 2020

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Rand Brittain posted:

There is absolutely no way they would ever get their growth spurt without telling everybody in Eorzea.

Alphinaud would tell everyone. Alisae would just make sure everyone noticed.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Waffleman_ posted:

Elidibus, Emet-Selch, and Lahabrea were the only members of the Convocation whose souls survived the sundering. Elidibus was the Amaurotian Elidibus, but had become a primal of Zodiark's heart kinda in the same way that Yotsuyu became a primal of Tsukuyomi, I think.

I think Elidibus was good and gone for a while, sacrificed entirely to Zodiark. The only thing remaining was a primal of the Emissary, Zodiark's saviour of mankind. Ysale and Yotsuyu retained their memories and personalities. Elidibus had none remaining. Also, Zodiark is still more or less around, just sundered and imprisoned. If Elidibus was the host body, he'd be stuck too.

Emet-Selch and Lahabrea were regular Amaurotians that weren't sundered.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Melomane Mallet posted:

So a thought I had...

In FF12, the dictionary entry for Zodiark mentioned that he was deliberately kept a child because of his immense power; in FF14, Elidibus, the name associated with Zodiark, was implied to have been a child at the end of the msq. Did the Convocation take a gifted child and raise him (possibly also train him for it?) up for the sole purpose of being Zodiark's heart? Because, uh...

I doubt it. I think the child form at the end was merely symbolic if anything, and not indicative of Elidibus at the time Zodiark was summoned. And I don't think Elidibus's name is associated with Zodiark any more than any other convocation member.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Sometimes he's on the balcony.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Back to the Azem = Azeyma/Azim stuff.

There's a ruined Cathedral made by worshippers of Sephirot in Azys Lla. It's also adorned with symbols nearly identical to Eorzean's symbol for Azeyma. I'm not sure where that link goes - Azem = Sephirot? Azem was linked to Sephirot in some way? (A sun god and a tree god in cahoots? No way.) But it seems likely that Azem in one way or the other was still known all over the world fairly recently.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Normally killing them lets them reform in the lifestream, because we don't kill their soul. Lahabrea, Emet-Selch, and now Elidibus have had their souls so irrevocably destroyed that even if they find themselves back in the lifestream, they're basically raw materials again.

Auracite was used to trap a few of them, but that was only to hold them still so they wouldn't just blink away as we charge up whatever we're gonna hit them with.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Jetrauben posted:

And yet a shade of Emet shows up in the trial! Suggesting, as I said, that the aether of the soul and the consciousness of the soul, the imprint memory and self leave behind, aren't really the same thing. Hell, pixies explicitly say they don't actually see aether as the same thing as the person it belonged to. An Lad is not synonymous entirely with Titania, even if they share enough to be seen as a reincarnation/echo.

Was it him, or was it an imprint he put in the stone?

Either way, we know that souls get recycled all the time and they're not associated with whoever originally had them. We're not Azem. We're not Ardbert. We're not the thousands of people that shared this soul.

Ascians were different in that when they died, or whatever, their soul, consciousness, and everything else stuck together and they could just pop back out.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Jetrauben posted:

It sounded like even Sundered Ascians can't be properly killed without rupturing their soul's crunchy shell, though. Nabriales was sundered, I think?

Yeah, Nabriales was sundered.

Gauis seems to have no issue killing the lesser Ascians, nor did the Scions when we were looking for Y'shtola. Igeyorhm and Nabriales got the VIP treatment from us, but maybe that's because we didn't know better, or because Lahabrea or Elidibus would have just snatched them out of the lifestream again. Or maybe in their uplifted station, they were capable of reconstituting themselves? I think it's actually more the latter. We can bust up their body, but without a big enough hit to smash their soul, they can at least pop in and steal a corpse again.

I think when G'raha snatched up Elidibus, the Crystal Tower dismantled his aether, soul and all, to get stored as energy again. That's my read on it anyways.

Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Aug 13, 2020

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Was there anything in game associating Azem with the Hydaelyn summoning crew? They objected to summoning Zodiark, but were they linked with Venat and co at all, or did they just head out to do their own thing?

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Jetrauben posted:

What happened with Lahabrea is also very similar to what happened with Elidibus. He went through bodies without changing them to his own, and therefore identities, like candy, presumably because he either felt their identities were useful or because he just didn't care. The end result was a man whose identity was falling apart, leaving nothing but a cartoon villain.

A thing I like is that Hydaelyn seems to assume both a soul and a body have an imprinted/stored identity in their memory.

My take was that since Elidibus was just a primal, he wasn't the real Elidibus to begin with. He was both Zodiark's and the peoples' wish for a saviour, and ultimately, that doesn't require memories or identities at all. He was the hero, he was salvation, and nothing else mattered. I don't think it had anything to do with body hopping like Lahabrea. His original summoners are also gone, so he's powered by the mixed prayers and needs of other scattered people.

Jetrauben posted:

It sounds more like Azem didn't really oppose either group. They wanted to presumably go off and murderhobo the Sound itself. We have apparently always been a murderhobo at heart.

That was my take, but I heard people thinking Azem and the rest of the Twelve were Venat's thirteen other summoners. I didn't remember anything linking Azem to the rest of the summoners, and wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Yeah we probably did minimal damage to a whole bunch of souls. Thancred notes that there wasn't a whole bunch there when he struck the first one. I'm assuming the soul fragment would find its way back once it was dispatched, or that the original soul would recover, but it's probably not significant lasting damage in any case.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

SirSamVimes posted:

In the 5.2 cutscene it states that "the dissenter" (presumably Azem) refused to help the Hydaelen summoners.

Perfect.

Azem is definitely the dissenter. Hythlodaeus outright says it, but it's nice to confirm they didn't work with either group.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Hunter Noventa posted:

The Rift where the Ascians hang out is, I think a more metaphysical place between the shards. Space is space, and both Omega and Midgardsormr crossed it to the Source sometime after the Sundering.

What's not known is are the other shards somehow isolated into little pocket dimensions that take up the same space in the universe as the source? Like if you had a spaceship and were observing the star system from outside of it, would the other shards be detectable?

The constellations are presumably the same on each shard and the source, so if they have a location in space, they share the same location. If that helps any.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

FFV themed would make me think it would have something to do with the void. Something to think about I guess.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Splash Attack posted:

apparently the summoned heroes are all references to other final fantasy games? i know the first sword guy looks like fighter from FF1 and a friend said that the dragoon that shoots down your balloon looks like kain from ffiv but i didn't notice and i haven't gone back to rewatch it yet.

has anyone figured out all the references yet?

Well the basic AF armour is basically Kain's.

The party that Eli/WoL summons in his trial apparently resembles the FFIV crew very heavily.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

I think Equilibrium's fan transcription was the best. Completely wrong, and completely missed the theme of the song.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

It's the VIIth legion again under a new Legatus.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Oh yeah. I just jumped straight to the Werlyt Weapon quests in my head.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Mister Olympus posted:

bozja has the fourth legion tho right

Seems that way. There's no VIIIth legion entry I can find anywhere.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Mad Wack posted:

to add to this it seems like the moon you can see on the first and the moon in the source are the same - what that means for them being just in space... i have no idea

There's a line somewhere that implies Zodiark is imprisoned in the moon, or is the moon. Since Zodiark is sundered, I'd expect it's a different moon for each shard, but it's all a reflection of the same one from the source.


CharlieFoxtrot posted:

That's the same legion as the one in the Ivalice raid right? Weird that the IVth is the one for that

Bozja is near Ivalice I think. And quite the distance from Garlemald proper, so an airship heavy force would probably be useful.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

They didn't make G-Warrior. It's a modified Allagan weapon.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Waffleman_ posted:

What do you think we are

We're not that.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Rand Brittain posted:

Didn't they say explicitly that Venat is that guy?

Yes.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

I think it's pretty safe to say that our (we aren't Azem) and Hydaelyn's goals are aligned. She wanted to stop Zodiark and preserve life on the planet. We like the latter too.

Until she heal-turns and starts munching on souls to stay alive, we're on the same team.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

multijoe posted:

If the world is going to move on past the ancient feud between light and dark it only makes sense that both instigators of it have to step aside and let a new world be born.

That new world would be built on the corpse of the current ones. Or just left as the status quo.


Eox posted:

It turned out alright in the end, but isn't this essentially what she did with Minfilia?

Eh, vaguely. Minfilia was used as Hydaelyn's voice, and later as a representative to stop the flood of Light. I guess she was a willing sacrifice one way or the other.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Eimi posted:

Because Hydaelyn and Zodiark echo Altana and Promathia from FFXI, and Altana was just as evil as the evil god Promathia.

Neither Hydaelyn nor Zodiark are evil.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Unlucky7 posted:

Has Zodiark actually done anything yet? I get that the Ascian's are acting on behalf of him and the rejoinings/calamities are to rebuild him, but has he actually done anything?

Presumably phase 1 was complete, which was to rewrite the laws of existence to stop whatever was causing the end days for the ancients. Life was restored to the planet.

They just never got around to sacrificing other creatures to return the Amaroutians.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Unlucky7 posted:

I thought that Amarot was all but destroyed then Zodiark sucked up whatever was left. Hydaelyn did make the killing bow through the sundering, but it was arguably in service to the new life over an old civilization that is all but dead and gone.

I mean yeah it sounds bad when you hear Emet Selch talk about it, but while he is probably not lying, like Hydaelyn herself, he is probably not telling us everything either.

Zodiark probably hasn't done anything directly in a long time, being broken into a half dozen pieces and imprisoned and all that.

There wouldn't have been a segment of the population trying to stop Zodiark and summon Hydaelyn if Zodiark wasn't already successful. He had to have at least stablized the world and brought some life back.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

The Asahi = Venat was the dumbest loving theory this game full of fan theories ever had.

Mulva posted:

There's no indication of this, and it's entirely possible that without a heart there is no such thing as a "Zodiark". Just a mass of undirected power. There's also never been a single moment that conveys anything that Zodiark has ever wanted or said. The Ascians wanted things, the Ascians used Zodiark as a means to get those things, we've never seen Zodiark's perspective. We've gotten to see the big crystal mom say some things, convey ideas, but Zodiark is and always has been a giant question mark.

That's the thing about primals - they want what the summoners wanted. Their entire raison d'ętre is to do what their summoners called them to do. They don't have a perspective other than what they were given.

Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Aug 18, 2020

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Our soul is a chunk of Azem's soul. (or 9 chunks of 14)

That doesn't make us Azem, any more than it makes us Ardbert. Or the tens of thousands of other people who have presumably shared that soul.

Orcs and Ostriches fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Aug 18, 2020

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Cleretic posted:

Just because it was it was wrong, doesn't mean it was 'the dumbest'. It had some interesting legs and wasn't completely out of nowhere. I assure you, I've heard dumber, I just don't internalize most of those.

There was nothing interesting about it, and it came from nowhere. Zenos obviously represents no good to the will, life, or health of the world or the beings on it. Anyone helping him is obviously against our and Hydaelyn's interests. Venat would not have sacrificed himself and his people just to turn around and help Zenos get his rocks off.

They just name droped Venat in 5.2, and introduced a shadowy new character in the same patch.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

The whole Elidibus is a primal thing was kinda annoying, because it's entirely unlike any other primal we've experienced. It's questionable if the other Ascians even knew, because they considered him one of the unsundered, rather than a facsimile of one. And he apparently has remaining memories of the original Elidibus, as opposed to being created as a new being based off the original. He's still body jacking people just like the other Ascians.

And then there's the whole heart of Zodiark thing. Elidibus was sacrificed to be the heart of Zodiark, cool, I dig that. But Zodiark ejected his own heart before he got sundered? That would be a new thing we haven't seen primals doing. Or did he just create a primal in the image of the world's saviour? A primal summoning a primal to be his feet on the ground, based on the original person that summoned him? I could dig that, but that doesn't seem to be the case either since it seems that it's real Elidibus in there.

So it's both real Elidibus, and primal Elidibus, at the same time.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

hobbesmaster posted:

We’ve already seen a primal like that though - Ysayle/Shiva.

Ysale never sacrificed herself to become Shiva. Shiva was a temporary transformation for Ysale, not a permament fixture. Similarly with Pheonix and Louisoix.

Elidibus is still unique, because he's out there being Elidibus, and Zodiark is still out there being chunks of Zodiark.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

They're not really purposefully corrupted, but different by necessity. Sundered individuals don't have the aether to create something themselves, so they need to pull it from elsewhere.

Presumably Zodiark and Hydaelyn are different, if only because of the ancients that summoned them granting them so much more aether, but they still need to be topped up and fueled from elsewhere. I don't see why they wouldn't start sucking aether from the environment if Hydaelyn didn't care if she destroyed the world, or Zodiark was actually alive and in one piece to do so.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Zodiark had a lot of initially energy for sure, be he also had to rewrite the laws of existence and make the star habitable again. That must have got him running pretty drat low if they were already planning another set of sacrifices for him.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

That would have been awful.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

thetoughestbean posted:


In whichcase you have to wonder why he didn’t make Shivalry or Ramewl

Because Shiva is a known person that lived in Eorzean history, and Ramuh, if based off Rhalgar as theorized, is likely already based on another Ancient.

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Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

CharlieFoxtrot posted:

I dunno, those are all general canned animations they use all the time aren't they?

Not custom like the Emet-Selch wave

I don't think those are used outside of those two characters.

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