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Idaholy Roller posted:Is it not very good? I can’t see how it could be an improvement considering we’ve lost Gideon’s humour. It's got flashback Ortus's lyric poetry though!
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Sep 8, 2020 19:52
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Thanks for setting this up, I lurked while reading along and checking the theories, really enriched the experience for me, especially pointing out things from the beginning that I glossed over. I didn't want to actively participate because I was on holiday and only had access to my phone. Also it was a very enjoyable read in general, I jumped into harrow immediately and keep wishing I still had goon theories to keep me company. :3
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Sep 8, 2020 20:05
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I really liked Harrow the Ninth but I wasn’t sure I was going to until about 2/3 of the way through when stuff started to make sense and it became more obvious it was actually going somewhere interesting. It’s a wild ride. Try not to get spoiled on it because there are some twists that are fun to figure out. There are even clues (some much more obvious than others) in the completely buck-wild Dramatis Personae at the beginning. Entropic fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Sep 8, 2020 |
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Sep 8, 2020 20:09
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Good times! And we can still keep on discussing Gideon for a bit, but I'm thinking the next whodunnit is going to be Smallbone Deceased, by the unaccountably mostly-forgotten Michael Gilbert.
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Sep 8, 2020 22:50
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I'm in.
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Sep 8, 2020 23:08
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regular Tamsyn Muir discussion thread is over here. Spoiler tags encouraged please.
Entropic fucked around with this message at 23:26 on Sep 8, 2020 |
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Sep 8, 2020 23:24
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In for Smallbone Deceased as well 
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Sep 9, 2020 16:59
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Foxfire_ posted:It's got flashback Ortus's lyric poetry though!
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Sep 9, 2020 19:31
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Maybe thread title change so if anyone who already read Gideon & isn't watching it knows we're about to start a new book?
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Sep 11, 2020 03:23
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Okay, so! Our next book is going to be Smallbone Deceased, by Michael Gilbert.  Google Play link Kindle link quote:Horniman, Birley and Craine is a highly respected legal firm with clients drawn from the highest in the land. When a deed box in the office is opened to reveal a corpse, the threat of scandal promises to wreak havoc on the firm's reputation—especially as the murder looks like an inside job. The partners and staff of the firm keep a watchful and suspicious eye on their colleagues, as Inspector Hazlerigg sets out to solve the mystery of who Mr. Smallbone was—and why he had to die. Start by reading until the end of Chapter Three, which will get us all the way up to the murder. I'll give people a week to get started, so we'll move forward to the next reading on September 18th.
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Sep 11, 2020 03:43
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Like to get in there earlier and claim the supposedly dying lady necromancer as the killer. Thanks.
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Sep 11, 2020 18:55
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Smallbone Guessing Mr. Smallbone's head is in the deed box? Keeping track of the cast for this one is more confusing. So far, the real central mystery seems to be whether 'Abel Horniman' is intended to be a funny name or if it's just from being written in 1950.
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Sep 12, 2020 23:24
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More smallbone Obvious motive seems to be embezzlement. If I'm understanding the Horniman Office Management System (tm) correctly, they have all their currency & securities (this is in the age of paper stock certificates/bonds) pooled together in a common vault. Then each client has a deed box kept in the responsible soliciter's office with ledgers specifying what belongs to that client (I'm getting this from Bob saying that he needs to get into the trust deed box before he can audit the securities). It's a pretty terrible system. If the records in the trust deed box were altered/destroyed (and they probably are if there's a rotting head in there), there's no way to know if securities are missing from the main vault apart from one of the trustees remembering what's supposed to be there, and both trustees are conveniently dead. e: Also from that summary Rand Brittain posted, apparently we're getting a police investigator? Seemed like Henry was going to be the omnicompetent Holmes-esque detective Foxfire_ fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Sep 13, 2020 |
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Sep 13, 2020 23:49
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Smallbone up to Ch.3. Not really got a handle on how big those boxes are. It says "larger than a normal deed box" but I don't really know how big that is. I'm picturing something the size of one of those cardboard document boxes which are about 1.5ft x 1ft x 1 ft. So, about big enough to hold a head, or if smaller, maybe a pair of hands. I'm also assuming it must be Smallbone, or bits of him, in there. (In which case, where is the rest?) I also assumed that Bohun was going to be the primary PoV and investigator (he's only been there two days, can't really be a suspect) but perhaps he's just an artifice to give us an outsider's view of the office. Plus there's hinting of something hidden in his past with the army medical thing. Some notes just for myself to keep in mind: Horniman Sr. has been dead for about a month. Smallbone has been missing for about two months. Mr. Craine is the one who wanted the box opened. (Perhaps needs the death of the last trustee known at this specific time?)
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Sep 14, 2020 02:18
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Google "lawyer's deed box" and you'll see that they can in fact be pretty darn big. The boxes used by Horniman, Birley, and Craine are probably a little bit bigger than that.
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Sep 14, 2020 04:58
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Idaholy Roller posted:Like to get in there earlier and claim the supposedly dying lady necromancer as the killer. Thanks. This had better not be a spoiler for Gideon the Ninth (or Harrow), I haven't read them yet.
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Sep 14, 2020 04:59
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Safety Biscuits posted:This had better not be a spoiler for Gideon the Ninth (or Harrow), I haven't read them yet. You're still okay on the spoiler front though, the existence of that character isn't secret; it's more analogous to us knowing that Smallbone is going to have an 'Investigator Hazlerigg' in advance.
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Sep 14, 2020 05:53
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I meant to join in this read-along but I accidentally the whole thing Great pick!
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Sep 14, 2020 13:58
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Foxfire_ posted:Agree they should not be saying anything about Gideon outside of spoiler tags. Thank you! 
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Sep 14, 2020 15:26
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I meant to join in this read-along but I accidentally the whole thing For violating the sacred laws of the read-along, I am assigning you a book report on the life and works of Michael Gilbert.
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Sep 14, 2020 15:40
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I looked up photos of a lawyer deed box and I guess you might get a whole body in there with sufficient limb severing and some Tetris. It’s odd that no one smelled the body until it was opened, two months is long enough, but I admit to not knowing anything about how decaying flesh smells can permeate  I agree that the two deaths are likely related and it’ll probably be one of the first things that Henry and yet to be introduced detective figure out Edit: you know, I assumed he had been killed when he was first missing but maybe he got back from Italy and was only recently killed, making it a crime of opportunity for getting rid of the second trustee. Would explain the smell issue Mecca-Benghazi fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Sep 18, 2020 |
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Sep 18, 2020 03:07
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Mecca-Benghazi posted:I looked up photos of a lawyer deed box and I guess you might get a whole body in there with sufficient limb severing and some Tetris. It’s odd that no one smelled the body until it was opened, two months is long enough, but I admit to not knowing anything about how decaying flesh smells can permeate A mouse got in a box once, so Horniman Sr. had all the subsequent boxes made waterproof + airtight.
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Sep 18, 2020 03:15
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Foxfire_ posted:A mouse got in a box once, so Horniman Sr. had all the subsequent boxes made waterproof + airtight. And larger! I'm glad folks mentioned how big these were, I was definitely imagining (a slightly larger version of) something smaller. up through Chapter 3: Before I was not-spoilered about the inspector who's going to show up, I assumed it was a Murder Must Advertise situation and Henry was going to be the guy. Whoever did the murder needs the key to the box, obviously, which implies that it's someone in the firm, which would line up with an embezzlement motive. That the old, dead boss had some conflict with the victim is a wrinkle, and it would be unsatisfying if he did it and then died of natural causes. It doesn't sound like his son knew about it, either. Idk if knowing the filing system narrows it down any more than access to the key.
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Sep 18, 2020 06:58
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Looks like we’re picking up steam! Go ahead and read to the end of Chapter Six.
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Sep 18, 2020 15:23
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I'm really enjoying the style of writing, I see why the foreword praised Gilbert so much. There goes the theory about the two deaths being related  List Two:
The face being face-down in the box would seem to narrow down the list of extremely suspicious people but it could also be a red herring. My initial thought is that it was committed with multiple people, at least one of whom was a woman (that entire section could have been a red herring tho). At the very least, it had to have happened during normal business hours and to get to Horniman's office, you have to go through at least one of the secretaries. I suppose Cockerill could be in on it instead if it happened later. Really want to know who the skeleton staff has been on Saturday mornings. If it was the skeleton staff, it rules out everyone that's not a lawyer, secretary, or Cockerill. Guess it's worth mentioning List One, the new arrivals: our Henry Bohun, Mr Prince (litigation), Mr Waugh (cashier), Mrs Porter (typist, doubles for Bohun and Duxford), Charlie Flower (who works with Cockerill in the basement) Looking at the map, in the basement we have Waugh, Prince, and Cockerill/Charlie sharing. Upstairs, one half are the partners and their secretaries. The other half, the typists share a room, Duxford has a room, and Cove and Bohun share.
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Sep 19, 2020 22:59
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Up to Ch. 6. Interesting how much of a police procedural this story is. Unusual for its time, I think. So Hazlerigg will be our main investigator, with Bohun's help. Well, that clears that up, though Bohun is having somewhat suspicious meetings in the dead of night somewhere in east London. (Incidentally, for those who don't know, if you're "born within the sound of the Bow bells" it means you're a cockney. "Fairy plates" I was confused about but probably means he recognized Bohun's footsteps - plates = plates of meat = feet) I suspect whatever "job" he's seeking will be a red herring to the actual plot. The identity of the body seems pretty settled, short of a long-term replacement of Smallbone (at least 5 years ago). The box had the whole of Smallbone's body stuffed in it, though it only just fit. So quite a bit bigger than I was imagining. Also extremely heavy, I would have thought - difficult for one person to move alone. So the body was probably placed in the box at the office, rather than elsewhere. Of course I immediately leapt for Horniman Sr. as a suspect since he knew he was dying, and the dates match, and he would have the key. That seems to be ruled out by the other evidence. But one of the other partners might have killed to protect the firm (or in the case of Bob, his father's reputation), especially if they discovered he was embezzeling. So Smallbone went looking for something in Kent on Feb 12th, came back, and left the next day (and disappeared, never making it to Florence, if that was his destination). And he liked to collect gossip and compromising information. Could he have found something about the trust there? Kent's a likely place for one of Ichabod's charities, since he owned East-coast fishing fleets. The murder weapon makes it clear the murder was almost certainly per-meditated, rather than an impulse. Haven't noticed any left-handers, though I don't see why he couldn't have been garotted from the front.
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Sep 20, 2020 05:10
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Don't have any good theories yet, still seems like initial setup & evidence. My one unsupported idea is that Smallbone is the one embezzling from the trust. It would give a good mid-book swerve and he's idle rich, but not that rich (and trying to give the impression of being wealthier than he actually is). Also, a one-handed person could totally still garrote someone, they just either need a loop on one end of the wire or to have one end already attached to their handless arm
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Sep 22, 2020 05:45
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Let’s get a move on! Go ahead and read to the end of Chapter Nine. Audible has made two different audiobooks of Smallbone Deceased, neither of which agrees with each other or me about how to pronounce “Bohun.” The first, which is now unavailable, although personally I liked it better, pronounced it “Beaune.” The newer pronounces it “Boone.” If asked, I would have said “Bow-an,” but I was not.
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Sep 22, 2020 14:20
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Cove seems suspicious. Even if he dislikes his old officemate, sneaking into the office at nice, ransacking his desk, then breaking open the desk to rummage through the locked drawer while there's an active murder investigation going on seems more like he's looking for something in particular and that it's important, not just him trying to get Duxford in trouble with the senior partners. The police sergeant investigating the checks is also weird. The secretary who lives on the street (don't remember which one offhand) says the women they're to run the nursing home-esque place on the street, but the nurse who talked to the sergeant didn't recognize the name. The (presumably) second murder at the end of the section is leaning against anyone in the typing pool being involved. They would all have known that Miss Chittering was staying late. It supports embezzlement somewhere since there isn't anything in the office afterhours to snoop for except financial papers
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Sep 25, 2020 01:23
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To Ch.9. We don't know yet what Saturday (if any) the murder occured on, though if it's not the 13th, there's the matter of where Smallbone was for X weeks before it (since that seems to be the day he dissappeared). For the Saturday staff, it looks like it was pretty common for both people to be out by noon or so. So it could just as easily be anyone who knew the routine to slip in before lock-up, not just those who were scheduled. At least as easy as the secretary doing it. For the letter, the stuff about the placement of the signature seems to be indicating that it may be a forgery. Perhaps the holes show it was typed on a page removed from another document? (Would they be using staples at they time? Or just an actual pin?) Though I don't know enough about legal paperwork to say if it would be normal to have a sheet of paper with just a signature on it? That seems unlikely. If it is a forgery, to what end? It specifies a Saturday, but not which Saturday. (Unless it's to point to a Saturday, but the murder happened on a different day - the office gets pretty empty at lunchtime, according to ch. 8). And if you're making a forged letter, why drop it under a desk where it might not be found for ages? So Duxford appears to be moonlighting for another firm. It seems the story is going to throw red-herrings at us for everyone's behaviour, only one of which is going to be related to the murder.
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Sep 25, 2020 03:05
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My first thought once the detective pointed out the placement of the signature was also that the signature was the only original part and the rest had been typed onto it afterwards, to give an alibi to one of the Saturday people. I guess there's not much hope for Miss Chittering to just be out cold since she did see the face of the person coming in late I want to say that this means we can rule out the sergeant as Miss Chittering's assailant unless he's good at acting and the narrative is deliberately obfuscating things.
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Sep 26, 2020 23:37
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Goodness, I am sleepy, but we must continue. Read to the end of Chapter Fourteen. This is the last update before the solution, and I will now ask you to lock in your answers: Was Abel Horniman killed? If so, who did it? Who killed Marcus Smallbone, and why? Who killed Miss Chittering, and why?
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Sep 28, 2020 04:34
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I have a lot of time to waste today, so I'll take a crack at the solution. Sorry for the long ramble, I'm not quite sure of everything. Horniman: Natural causes. No reason to think otherwise. Smallbone: Killed by Miss Cornel, to protect Abel Horniman's reputation. Chittering: Killed by Miss Cornel, to protect herself. First of all, it can't be Horniman Jr. He has his alibi, which isn't yet collabored but should be easy to do so. Also the letter points to Bob Horniman, but seems very clearly to have been forged as a method to frame him. Who finds the letter? Miss Cornel, after dropping a screw, finds it under her desk. (No doubt she could have contrived another reason to look there if the mirror incident hadn't happened). Who makes a point that the letter was addressed to "Mr. Horniman", and thus is for Bob, not Abel? Miss Cornel tells the inspector so. So, Miss Cornel (who is Abel's secretary, after all) gets the message from Smallbone, and arranges the meeting for the 20th, probably saying that Abel will be there. (Also points to the letter being forged - why would Smallbone meet with Bob when Abel was the one double-dipping the farm equity? Abel is still alive at that point) She can count on Duxford leaving early - he slips out all the time, though she probably doesn't know about the other Solicitors and thinks he's just shirking. In fact the book that Cove finds shows an appointment for the 20th, though doesn't mention the time. Cornel garotts Smallbone, stuffs him in the deed box. She would know where the key was, and would be plenty strong enough, if she's a pro-level golfer. (The story doesn't actually seem to show she's left handed, though it doesn't say otherwise - it's ambiguous, perhaps deliberately so, during the mirror scene). She then needs a way to dispose of the box's original contents, can't just leave it in the office somewhere because of the famous Horniman filing system. So she buys a rucksack from a shop nearby, and takes the papers home in that. Perhaps dumps the whole thing somewhere. Motive: To protect Abel and his firm's reputation. She's been his secretary for years, and is very much his creature. She probably knows Abel is ill, and may know hes soon to die. By killing Smallbone and hiding him in a place that won't be searched for a good while, she allows him to die without scandal. The rucksack is the motive for Miss Chittering's death. She mentions it - a big green rucksack - as something Miss Cornel owns in Ch.2 (incidently Bohun is present during the conversation, and although we don't see him talk about it with the Inpector, this must be what Hazelrigg is thinking about at the end of Ch.10 after talking with Miss Chittering's boyfriend - how else would he know that the rucksack is big and green later). Presumably the boyfriend sold Cornel the rucksack and mentioned it to Chittering (would he be able to recognize her?) In that case she knows when it was bought, too, and might mention it was bought on one of the Saturdays of interest, meaning that Cornel need to transport something on that day. Cornel wouldnt have a problem slipping back into the office on that Tuesday, and doesn't have a checkable alibi for the time of death. Things I'm not certain about : Sgt. Cockerill. Is he also involved? He's also loyal to Abel (was his batman) and might have been a collaborator with Cornel. He may also have been the actual garotter, though he appears to be right handed (uses a screwdriver in his right hand opening the box, for instance). I don't think the time matches quite right for the murder of Miss Chittering, if the witness is accurate - we know it's not yet quite 7 when she hears someone in the building, and Cockerill doesn't get to the building until just after 7. Is the rucksack a strong enough motive to kill Miss Chittering? Cornel could just say she was planning a hiking holiday or something, and took advantage of shopping that Saturday. Is loyalty to Abel a strong enough motive to kill Smallbone? Could Cornel actually be siphoning money off those alms payments after all? Hobnob fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Sep 28, 2020 |
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Sep 28, 2020 21:13
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Initial thoughts Did not realize Bob-Anne being a thing was supposed to be a mystery to the reader. Immediate reaction for a culprit is one of Craine, Cockerill, or Cornel. Craine has a financial motive and is open to taking Bohun's money to clean up the fraud mess. Cockerill seems to be loyal to Abel and wouldn't want the scandal. Cornel I have to go dig up motive for (context for when she was saying Abel was a great man that got referenced from Cockerill + stuff about the 'charity' disbursements that didn't make sense and have otherwise not done anything in the story). Want to go look at Cockerill+Chittering's pre-death narration to see if it works with Cockerill not knowing she was there, killing her, then going to the pub to make an alibi and story about her working late. For being certain that the murders were carried out by a leftie, no one investigating seems to be paying any attention to who is actually left handed. Maybe scene where someone sees a picture of a certain left-handed golfer? e: In her last scene, Chittering is relieved to see her murderer. That fits with Cockerill or Cornel more than Craine. She's already wound up and seeing one of the partners who isn't supposed to be there trying to get into the typists room after hours probably wouldn't make her relax and be casual. Really anyone is a mess for this since as described, Cockerill would know she was there beforehand and Cornel would either know she was there or not know the building was unlocked. e2 after reading Hobnob: I wasn't thinking planned murder for Chittering, but that makes more sense. Otherwise the murderer is bringing a garrote with them on a trip intended for disposing of papers/embezzling/some other paper crime Foxfire_ fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Sep 30, 2020 |
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Sep 30, 2020 08:21
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I was leaning towards Cockerill in this last section but that point about bringing a garrote to just get rid of some papers makes it lean towards Chittering's death being intentional. I thought I was being clever figuring out Bob and Anne being an item while reading it I guess I'll agree with Cornel for killing Smallbone and Chittering. Guess golfers have some decent grip strength. Horniman Sr was likely a natural death.
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Oct 1, 2020 01:48
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Okay, I'm going to give it one more day before we reveal the solution, so finish up if you haven't!
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Oct 1, 2020 01:51
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Okay, go ahead and read to the end! Congratulations to Hobnob, who got it exactly right.
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Oct 1, 2020 22:03
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That was a good read and a very fair mystery. I’m glad Bohun gets a saucer now
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Oct 2, 2020 01:14
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Mecca-Benghazi posted:I’m glad Bohun gets a saucer now If you hunt around there are actually a couple of short stories featuring Bohun, although he won't appear in any other novels.
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Oct 2, 2020 01:17
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Miss Cornel is not good at crimes. Put body in the Smallbone box, put the Smallbone papers in the next most unlikely to be opened box, done.
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Oct 3, 2020 04:15
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