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Ballz
Dec 16, 2003

it's mario time



rich thick and creamy posted:

I may be slow on the uptake but I saw on IMDB that the actress who plays Hillary, Ruby's white persona, is the same actress that played the hound keeper in episode 2. Nice that Christina recycles dead help like that.

I noticed that right away too, mostly because I recognized the actress from The Deuce. Gonna make for an awkward reunion when Tic and Leti inevitably run into Heather Davenport!


Edit: So have the police been investigating all these reports of random masses of blood and flesh of white women scattered throughout the southside? I feel like that sort of thing would draw the interest of law enforcement.

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Madurai
Jun 26, 2012



Ballz posted:

I noticed that right away too, mostly because I recognized the actress from The Deuce. Gonna make for an awkward reunion when Tic and Leti inevitably run into Heather Davenport!


Edit: So have the police been investigating all these reports of random masses of blood and flesh of white women scattered throughout the southside? I feel like that sort of thing would draw the interest of law enforcement.

Especially since Ruby essentially performed for a witness.

Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011

[size=xx-large"]
You're not getting another fucking dime from us, Lowtax
[/size]

They do sort of yadda-yadda the whole naked black lady walking out of a crowded department store covered in bloody viscera thing.

Mokinokaro
Sep 11, 2001

At the end of everything, hold onto anything




Fun Shoe

They also skip over her escaping from the closet earlier too.

Canyon Minotaur
Jul 12, 2016


Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:

They do sort of yadda-yadda the whole naked black lady walking out of a crowded department store covered in bloody viscera thing.

She probably had keys and knew the exits.

Mokinokaro posted:

They also skip over her escaping from the closet earlier too.

Okay, that one is harder though.

rich thick and creamy
May 23, 2005

To whip it, Whip it good

Pillbug

Being a Lovecraft inspired setting, I'm sure that rats just come pouring out of the walls to nibble up any leftover flesh lying around before scurrying back out of sight. Much more dependable than a Roomba!

Mr Beens
Dec 2, 2006


Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:

Hey remember last week when this show was dismissed as homophobic?

Also, could someone explain the last bit with Tic and the translation for me?

You didn't miss anything, you know as much as we do. The translation was DIE, it triggered something that his mystery woman told him.

Snowman Crossing
Dec 4, 2009



wolfs posted:

This episode felt very messy and was my least favorite so far?

Re: chat in this thread — the soundtrack stuff was finally grating for me. Using Bad Religion for a sex scene felt too on the nose! Frank Ocean is great, and so is that track, but the usage here was too obvious to the point of being worth an eye roll.

Moses Sumney later on made up for it tho

also stop trying to make normative statements about media GoGoGadgetChris it’s so boring and toothless

Yeah I'm tapping out, it was a slog to finish this episode and I've gotten progressively less invested since the 2nd. Don't care about the characters and the soundtrack, hoo boy, agree.

The costumes and set design are great though.

Doltos
Dec 28, 2005


Weird episode I'm not sure if it was good commentary or hamfisted commentary or what. All the sex scenes including the 'sex' scene at the end went on too long.

The sound track is terrible. Bad rap and constant songs into songs. The foley its terrific though. They make all the shock scenes so much more shocking.

Mameluke
Aug 2, 2013
some dirty-sneaker-inbred-out of the woods-Pabst beer pussy methhead-junkie running all around town telling EVERYONE EVERYTHING ABOUT ELON MUSK


OH, Tic was speaking to Jamie Chung on the phone, not Christina/William.

mary had a little clam
Apr 23, 2003

Well I am
over-fucking-whelmed...


Young Orc

drat, episode 5 was awesome. Just weird and gross with great body horror but also, I was genuinely moved by Montrose at the drag show. I found that really lovely and , at least for this episode, I'm glad we didn't fall back on the trope of a self-loathing closeted queer beating the poo poo out of someone they are in love with. Beyond the sexy character stuff, I'm extremely curious as to what this is all leading towards.

Also, can we get a moratorium on people complaining about the soundtrack? Yes, it's on the nose, yes, that's a choice, it should be obvious by now this is what the show is so like... let's move on. At this point it's like complaining there's too much mobster drama in the Sopranos.

One actually pertinent criticism I have though is the climax of the Davenport saga: I felt like they played the surprise sex of a male for "poetic justice" which, yeah the guy is a racist creep and probably a rapist himself, but surprise sex as justice doesn't sit well with me. Unless we're not meant to think she was sodomizing the manager with a shoe, but that's how I parsed it.

mary had a little clam fucked around with this message at 03:45 on Sep 15, 2020

Doltos
Dec 28, 2005


mary had a little clam posted:

One actually pertinent criticism I have though is the climax of the Davenport saga: I felt like they played the surprise sex of a male for "poetic justice" which, yeah the guy is a racist creep and probably a rapist himself, but surprise sex as justice doesn't sit well with me. Unless we're not meant to think she was sodomizing the manager with a shoe, but that's how I parsed it.

It's exactly what they did and it was misguided justice porn. Would have had more impact on the character and situation if she didn't focus on stabbing one area in particular.

Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011

[size=xx-large"]
You're not getting another fucking dime from us, Lowtax
[/size]

Should have force fed him the potion, imo

Bismuth
Jun 10, 2010


Hell Gem

I liked this whole episode, but I am really tired of Montrose, I was already tired of his poo poo but at the point he murdered Yahima I tuned out on whatever his deal was. I dont understand why they keep allowing him to be anywhere near stuff that matters to them because hes shown how consistently untrustworthy, lovely, and stubborn he is. I just cant be happy for his "gay reveal" and whatever when hes been a consistent piece of poo poo for the entire show's run and for the pre-show history. I'd toss 10 Montroses into traffic to get uncle George back.

I dont think Ruby's murder was 100% supposed to be 'justice' also, I think they're showing the start of her going down a dark/dangerous path because thats always the theme with magic in this stuff. Letting loose with murderous intent and no consequences usually leads to bad things, and this show seems pretty good at having consequences (except for montrose)(yet).

Her story seems to be sort of a contrast to Tic/Letti's. They're trying to unravel and use the magic with the intent of protecting themselves and figuring out what the gently caress is going on around them, where as Ruby has gone down a path of violence and self-indulgence with it. Im not sure either path is going to end well, but I dont think Tic may come out of it with the same damage/baggage Ruby does.

Bird in a Blender
Nov 17, 2005

It's amazing what they can do with computers these days.


Yea, this feels like Christina Braithwhite is creating a tool she can use to unleash on Leti, or just have Ruby turn on Leti when Leti and Tic try to take out Christina.

How they're treating Montrose is weird. Like he hasn't really been sympathetic at all, up until this last episode where they try to rehab his image I guess. Maybe they will use his closeted homosexuality as a reason why he was such an rear end in a top hat for so long.

Bismuth
Jun 10, 2010


Hell Gem

Bird in a Blender posted:

Yea, this feels like Christina Braithwhite is creating a tool she can use to unleash on Leti, or just have Ruby turn on Leti when Leti and Tic try to take out Christina.

How they're treating Montrose is weird. Like he hasn't really been sympathetic at all, up until this last episode where they try to rehab his image I guess. Maybe they will use his closeted homosexuality as a reason why he was such an rear end in a top hat for so long.

I wont be especially happy if they decide to try and rehab his lovely behavior through gayness. I am not a fan of the whole violent closeted gay thing, its something I've seen a few too many times for my (gay) taste. Nothing can redeem him in my eyes and if they try to make him sympathetic at this point its not going to work for me.

That Italian Guy
Jul 25, 2012

Rocky uses Explosive Punch!
Paid by the Spines-for-Lowtax Committee.


Bird in a Blender posted:

Yea, this feels like Christina Braithwhite is creating a tool she can use to unleash on Leti, or just have Ruby turn on Leti when Leti and Tic try to take out Christina.

I think she is looking to get the astrolabe, and since she's failed with Leti/Tic (and Epstein's house has magical protection on it) she's trying to get to it through Ruby.

untzthatshit
Oct 26, 2007

Snit Snitford



That Italian Guy posted:

I think she is looking to get the astrolabe, and since she's failed with Leti/Tic (and Epstein's house has magical protection on it) she's trying to get to it through Ruby.

Right, I actually thought at first when Ruby was hooking up with William that they had gone back to Leti's house. I figured it was like vampire rules or something, they can cross the threshold only if they're invited in. So yeah I don't think the end scene with Ruby is supposed to make you feel good, she's going to the dark side and will be used against the other protagonists.

Incelshok Na
Jul 2, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 23 days!


Bird in a Blender posted:

Yea, this feels like Christina Braithwhite is creating a tool she can use to unleash on Leti, or just have Ruby turn on Leti when Leti and Tic try to take out Christina.

How they're treating Montrose is weird. Like he hasn't really been sympathetic at all, up until this last episode where they try to rehab his image I guess. Maybe they will use his closeted homosexuality as a reason why he was such an rear end in a top hat for so long.

He's just a violent closet-case who hides secrets out of shame. Him destroying magic comes from the same impulse that makes him a closet case.

It's a character-type that I had hoped we were done with. Though he seems like a mis-mash of a lot of outdated hateful stereotypes. Abusive black father, abusive gay man who lashes out at weakness, shifty closet case who hides secrets from the world, cowardly, etc. If that's the point, well, that's certainly a thing. Not a good thing but, uhhh, a thing.

Bismuth
Jun 10, 2010


Hell Gem

Yeah it really sucks because I'm pretty invested in the stories (for better/worse) of all the characters and really eager to see each new episode- but then there's him and he sucks all the life out of any scene he's in because of how relentlessly lovely (in a non-entertaining way) he is

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



I'm kind of torn on the gay thing, because black people are especially problematic towards homosexuality and trans issues, worse and worse the further back you get in time (NOBODY was gay in inner city black schools in the 80's/90s apparently to avoid getting beat down or worse) - and a show about black people in earlier time periods should definitely include that.

There's kind of dual issue where some gay people are tired of self hating/violent gay tropes, but then you can't talk about the black "community" and gayness without talking about how ridiculously horrible it has historically been towards sexuality due to a mix of lower income - inner city toxic masculinity combined with a huge Southern Protestant background via slavery and the effects on a person due to that.

Bismuth
Jun 10, 2010


Hell Gem

Ok but does our token gay character have to be a child beating murderer that literally burned away his beother's dying wish and seems to exist mostly to get his son in continuously deeper poo poo?

E: im also pretty hung up on who and how montrose killed, since most in the series so far has at least one corpse under their belt

Bismuth fucked around with this message at 15:56 on Sep 15, 2020

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003


Bismuth posted:

I wont be especially happy if they decide to try and rehab his lovely behavior through gayness. I am not a fan of the whole violent closeted gay thing, its something I've seen a few too many times for my (gay) taste. Nothing can redeem him in my eyes and if they try to make him sympathetic at this point its not going to work for me.

They've explained his violent ways due to his own father beating him, so I don't think the closeted gay thing is related to the violent thing as muchy.

sticksy
May 26, 2004
keeping austin weird





Nap Ghost

This show has been so wildly inconsistent - this last episode felt like it was something Ryan Murphy would've done in AHS, and I don't mean it in a good way.

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

Good body horror imagery, deec improvement with its LGBT themes, but 'sodomy as revenge' is a big no no imho

At this point I just wait for the "Contemporary music interlude" the way I waited for peewee Hermann to say the magic word each episode


Ahhhhh there it is!!! That was it!

Mameluke
Aug 2, 2013
some dirty-sneaker-inbred-out of the woods-Pabst beer pussy methhead-junkie running all around town telling EVERYONE EVERYTHING ABOUT ELON MUSK


Yeah Montrose sucks. Like it's nice that Michael K Williams got paid to hang out with some drag queens and wear a big bruise appliance but he just sucks the air out of the screen. Give me schlock or horror, not "oh woo the violent old man is sad cause he's Got Such Issues"

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



I agree with everyone who is really not feeling Montrose. I think Bismuth spoke my mind above in describing him as relentlessly lovely in a non-entertaining way. Now I guess we're supposed to sympathize with him because he was lovely because he was gay in a homophobic environment? That not only is not a great message, it's also undermined by the fact that at least from what we've seen, his gay friends/lover are nowhere near the levels of POS he is.

I also think that Jonathan Majors and especially Jurnee Smollett are really great actors. I don't think I've seen either of them in anything before but they're both really good. Which is a shame with Leti because I think her character is really not given a lot to do. Even in the one episode of the show so far that was centered around her, outside of the exorcism scene with the ghosts she felt somewhere between very removed and very passive. I think Jurnee Smollett is a better actress than the woman playing Ruby but in this episode, every time they went away from the Ruby story to Tic and Leti or Montrose it just felt like it was dragging.

Which brings me to the other issue I have, I've enjoyed each episode so far as a standalone doing its own 1950s African-American take on a particular horror trope but anything with the overarching plot really has not hooked me. All the stuff with lodges and the Language of Adam and the Epstein Time Machine are really not pulling me in. I know I'm not alone in this but there are definitely scenes that feel so rushed like they've been edited to condense twenty minutes of plot into 30 seconds and I wish the show would either go more towards fully standalone or actually develop this overarching plot, especially since (at least from what I've seen) it seems like a lot of the Lodge-related stuff was invented for the show and not taken from the book.

Doltos
Dec 28, 2005


It's because Montrose is a bad person and no one cares about a bad person's personal life whether he's gay or not. I'm not talking bad person as in like he's an rear end in a top hat or does mean things I mean like he just merc'd a lady the last episode who was supposedly working against evil and he's obviously working for evil.


Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:

Should have force fed him the potion, imo

Would have been good, would have been

AtraMorS
Feb 29, 2004

If at the end of a war story you feel that some tiny bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie

socialsecurity posted:

They've explained his violent ways due to his own father beating him, so I don't think the closeted gay thing is related to the violent thing as muchy.
I wouldn't rush to that conclusion. The opening scene of ep4 has a lot of clips of dialogue from Montrose's past, some of which we might presume are from his abusive father. Lines like, "I see the flower in your hair," and, "...Preening in the gotdamn mirror," and (maybe Montrose saying), "I promise dad, I won't do it again."

What I'm suggesting is that Montrose's father wasn't just abusive, but that he specifically tried to beat the gay out of Montrose.

Darko posted:

I'm kind of torn on the gay thing, because black people are especially problematic towards homosexuality and trans issues, worse and worse the further back you get in time (NOBODY was gay in inner city black schools in the 80's/90s apparently to avoid getting beat down or worse) - and a show about black people in earlier time periods should definitely include that.

There's kind of dual issue where some gay people are tired of self hating/violent gay tropes, but then you can't talk about the black "community" and gayness without talking about how ridiculously horrible it has historically been towards sexuality due to a mix of lower income - inner city toxic masculinity combined with a huge Southern Protestant background via slavery and the effects on a person due to that.
This. Kinitra Brooks over at The Root approached it this way (while also acknowledging that the editing decision to end the episode with the murder of Yahima was probably a mistake):

"Kinitra Brooks posted:

This episode also begs a conversation on the grander narrative of the structural violence of hierarchies, the problematic construct of our Western society that pushes the oppressed to become the oppressor. Michael Lamar Simeon, aka Black Gay Comic Geek expounds upon this history, writing: “violence against trans or even intersexed men and women of color, there’s a history there. Especially with it being perpetrated by men of color.” The data on violence against trans women of color, especially those identifying as Indigenous, supports this truth-telling. The genre of horror is never a “safe space” and it consistently asks us to “hold things in tension,” explains Michigan State University’s Dr. Tamura Lomax...
I mean, it's something I can't speak to from experience, but I see Montrose as something more than just a self-hating stereotype, and I'm willing to at least see where they go with him.

AtraMorS fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Sep 15, 2020

anothergod
Apr 11, 2016



Are we still having the "I don't like characters who are bad people so this whole show is bad" conversation?

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

anothergod posted:

Are we still having the "I don't like characters who are bad people so this whole show is bad" conversation?

IASIP is the only show to pull it off

And there's a big difference between your "quote" vs playing into harmful stereotypes imho. I cast absolutely no judgment since the show is a work in progress, but this is yet another reason why shows should be dumped and binged instead of dripped out weekly.

Bismuth
Jun 10, 2010


Hell Gem

anothergod posted:

Are we still having the "I don't like characters who are bad people so this whole show is bad" conversation?

If that's what you got from what people have said then lmao. I think everyone had given pretty thoughtful reasons why this character irritates them and yet still like the show.

Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011

[size=xx-large"]
You're not getting another fucking dime from us, Lowtax
[/size]

Amazing shows are built around bad, compelling, characters. Montrose is bad and boring and drags down the other characters who continue to associate with them.

It was impressive that he managed to smuggle a body out of a group house though.

wolfs
Jul 17, 2001

posted by squid gang



Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:

It was impressive that he managed to smuggle a body out of a group house though.

This is what has bugged me so much in this series, is the growing body count just not mattering at all!

that and the Lovecraft allusions getting thinner and thinner as things go on

Mameluke
Aug 2, 2013
some dirty-sneaker-inbred-out of the woods-Pabst beer pussy methhead-junkie running all around town telling EVERYONE EVERYTHING ABOUT ELON MUSK


It would have been really nice if they expressly said "the gore from the race-changing potion vanishes into thin air after a minute"

Solvent
Jan 24, 2013

These Words Hold Not Truth
Evident For All To See
This Hand Wears No Ring


College Slice

The body horror in the last episode was just great in terms of visual effects.

I don’t really have a horse in this race as far as Monrose goes, I’ve known repressed people who are just as boring and restrained in their outward character as he is, it is definitely outright evil to cut someone’s throat, compounded by the situation of tangible literally monstrous evil that the deceased represented a bulwark against... but...

I wouldn’t call it a simple trope at all, within a page of current in GBS’ cursed image thread there was a story someone could google about a Florida man who shot his doctor because he came during a routine prostate exam. I think the character of Montrose is all too real, and all too relevant of a threat. A person’s unchecked inner turmoil can and will ruin everything and while that IS trope, it’s not simple or irrelevant, it’s shocking and deviant, disgustingly applicable to real life today, sorta like the racial themes being acceptable in the context. Tic’s response to seeing evidence of this early on was reasonable, and his rage at finding out what his father has done was too, no matter what his feelings on gender and sexuality are. Ignorance is understandable, cold blooded murder for whatever the reason, is not.

Still a good show, still looking forward to seeing it on Sunday, I also think it’s better than what I’ve tried not to sleep through during an AHS episode.

So far, the show is definitely missing something that made me stick with True Blood though, not the tits and vampires I showed up for, but the characters that were so likable in the early seasons. There’s no fabulous Lala to get invested in or charming and vulnerable Sookie. Our female lead seems to have a good head on her shoulders from the start, unlike True Blood, and the drag character has jus been introduced seemingly as a counterbalance to the show’s portrayed homophobia. Tic is about ten times better from the start than Bill was, and yeah, I’d happily give ten lovely psycho dads for one kind uncle back, but I guess that was the point.

True blood was made in a more innocent time it.

Doltos
Dec 28, 2005


Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:

Amazing shows are built around bad, compelling, characters. Montrose is bad and boring and drags down the other characters who continue to associate with them.

It was impressive that he managed to smuggle a body out of a group house though.

He's definitely a drag (no pun intended). I hate it when shows put a character in that just drags down the plot and makes it about them because they're just so awful and lovely. It's like the brother in season 3 of Ozark.

Montrose is obviously shook from some cult stuff so you can't quite make him a stronger character. He's just stuck as the drag.

GoGoGadgetChris
Mar 18, 2010


Bad Dog

Big "Skyler" energy

Bismuth
Jun 10, 2010


Hell Gem

I felt I had seen like the exact scenes with montorse and the drag queens so many times in media that that if I was just a little higher I might have forgotten what show I was watching. Unfortunately I wasn't that high so I just kept thinking about how I was watching a very positively glittery shot happy scene for a man that had very recently slit the throat of an innocent indigenous intersex character. I was very excited to see Yahima's story when they showed up and they ended up getting less screen time than montrose laying drunk on his floor. Not only is he a huge drag any time he's around he's actively subtracting/replacing more interesting/engaging characters and plot elements.

Also as a gay whose entire family/friend group is made up of the queer community I gotta say that's part of why I'm so salty about characters like this showing up over and over. Why is spending one night with drag queens some kind of fairy godmother moment for lovely characters.

Goddamn I miss uncle George soooo muuuuuuch.


Abt the trueblood thing, I'm not sure that's a good comparison. The tones of the shows are a lot different, I actually really prefer the lovecraft country characters because they (mostly) really have their heads on their shoulders. I dont think this show needs some charming innocent ditz character as the center, that has been played out to death. I much prefer the more mature, self assured, and jaded characters being kind of dumped into all this weirdness, it makes more sense when they survive because they're used to surviving.

Im also glad there hasn't really been a situation where someone who has already experienced crazy stuff gets in trouble because they just didnt "believe" it and keep trying to act like stuff is normal. Everyone so far that has seen/experienced the supernatural has just accepted what their eyes/friends told them and moved on with a new plan. Its good to see horror where the conflicts arent entirely based on the main characters being huge morons.

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Xealot
Nov 25, 2002

Showdown in the Galaxy Era.



Bismuth posted:

Abt the trueblood thing, I'm not sure that's a good comparison.

Yeah, this show is definitely pulpy in a similar way, but the characters in True Blood always gave me this porn-y vibe where they behaved the way the situation needed them to, not in any way a real person might behave. For all this show's absurd genre poo poo, I don't feel like the character's common sense gets lost in it. If anything, they seem to be pushing against the genre elements, reacting to them like sane people would. It kind of feels like a black Ghostbusters in that sense.

Fully agreed on Montrose, though. I rolled my eyes a bit when he showed up at his secret boyfriend's place to have wordless mechanical sex, because that's become such a cliche of "prestige" storytelling. "He's a violent, stoic manly-man, but look at his Secret Softer Side. How complex and brave." The drag scene definitely read as somehow redemptive for him, and I also wasn't there for it. He's still a lovely, violent man who abused his son and recently murdered someone for being inconvenient to him.

Though, I kind of suspect the writers killed off Yahima because they didn't know how to write for them longterm. I mean, an indigenous intersex person who's 19th-century Arawak is a lot to juggle. The term "two-spirit" alone is super complicated. It's only in recent history that this term has come to mean nonbinary/trans/intersex in any contemporary sense (it was a concept for some groups historically, but not all), and even then that's mostly within First Nations and other North American communities. Would someone from South America 200 years ago have used the term? Maybe not.

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