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There comes a time in a man's life when he can no longer live with a single outlet in his home office. When running extension cords across the house is no longer tolerable. When the images of unwrapped splices outside of junction boxes keep him up at night. When the unsafe conditions of 90+ year old wiring can no longer be ignored. So I'm going to rewire my house and am welcoming you all to join me in my deliberate, self-inflicted pain and suffering, belittle me for buying a house with a ton of lovely electrical work, caution me before I do something unsafe, and hopefully enjoy in the successes achieved through clouds of plaster dust, probably-asbestos-insulation and tiny little flakes of oil-based paint. Please note I am not currently and will not do anything unsafe that will potentially harm myself, my family or my cute lil doggies. If after extensive planning I don't feel comfortable engaging in this project I will simply turn off the main power to my house for 4 to 6 months until I can afford to pay an electrician, or just like, not do it. I am not planning on so much as opening a breaker panel until I am confident that I can do the job safely and competently. A quick rundown of my house:
My motivation here is that I know we currently have unsafe conditions with random splices into knob and tube, outside junction boxes, that I want to remedy. We also have several rooms (like the office) with only a single outlet in them. I don't want to wait a year until I can pay $10k+ to an electrician to do the work, and am either confident (or dumb enough) to think I can do this as long as I prepare accordingly and take my time. So, questions. So many questions.
My plan, so far, subject to a lot of change, will be to rough in wiring for each circuit before disconnecting the current live circuit at the panel and connecting the new circuit; testing with multimeter; ensuring circuit is working as intended. Some work will have to be done on several circuits before connecting new work, as some rooms are on a single circuit - for instance, bedroom, office and livingroom outlets and lights are all on one circuit, so new wiring will have to be run for each room before capping and eventually disconnecting them. I'm not yet sure which room I'll start in. Downstairs floor plan, not quite to scale:  List of circuits to be run, will definitely change:  Please feel free to share any info, tips, warnings, etc - I am still very much in the planning stage, gathering materials lists, going through my tool inventory, watching a lot of youtube videos, making notes for code qualifications, etc. I'll update periodically as I begin work with pictures of just how Neat and Cool(TM) the wiring I am replacing is, with some pics of my amateur work as well maybe. Thanks for reading my big dumb thread of electric doom. skylined! fucked around with this message at 00:20 on Aug 18, 2020 |
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Aug 17, 2020 23:55
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| # ? Apr 24, 2024 08:34 |
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Good luck! Is there a reason you are combining the outlet and light in the bathroom into one circuit? I've been separating my outlets and lights in most rooms as I go through the house updating rooms/circuits, too many times I had to search for a flashlight to run back to the furthest depths of my basement to reset the breakers. Also consider anything special you want to run on its own circuit (I'm putting my stereo and surround sound receiver on their own 20A circuits to stop the lights from dimming) or any 240V outlets that might be nice now or in the future.
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Aug 18, 2020 14:34
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SpeedFreek posted:Good luck! Is there a reason you are combining the outlet and light in the bathroom into one circuit? I've been separating my outlets and lights in most rooms as I go through the house updating rooms/circuits, too many times I had to search for a flashlight to run back to the furthest depths of my basement to reset the breakers. Also consider anything special you want to run on its own circuit (I'm putting my stereo and surround sound receiver on their own 20A circuits to stop the lights from dimming) or any 240V outlets that might be nice now or in the future. Thanks. Specifically to the bathroom, it was remodeled in 2018 and the one outlet and one light/fan are already on a single circuit, so it’ll stay. I’ve got revising to do for a month or so and will need to consider what future proofing I need to do!
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Aug 18, 2020 17:10
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Arc fault circuit interruptors don't play well with a number of stuff you're gonna be plugging in - motors especially. (Something something the brushes piss with the waveform in a way that tends to trip AFCI's.) Consider either running a different circuit for receptacles that isn't AFCI protected with one per room that's for stuff with motors (fans, vacuum cleaners, paper shredders, stuff like that), or you can play silly buggers with it and run two different circuits in a line for your receptacles - if you pry off the little doodad on a duplex receptacle, it'll let you have each receptacle on a different circuit, so that way you know 'okay when i'm vacuuming i gotta plug it in to the bottom one'. http://www.electrical101.com/split-receptacles.html - but note that you want to break off BOTH tabs, because although there are circumstances where sharing the neutral is AOK, 'keeping my drat vacuum cleaner from tripping the AFCI' is not one of them. Minor pain in the rear end in the wiring, but will save you a lot of trips to the breaker panel later. edit to add: while you're in there, and maybe ask your GC to do this in the kitchen, put the receptacles in 'upside down'! That way if you drop something it'll bounce off the ground pin (good) instead of bridging the hot and neutral (bad). If you're putting a receptacle in sideways, make sure the ground pin is on the left - that'll have the neutral on top, so if you drop something then at worst it'll bridge the neutral and ground, which are already bridged at your panel anyway so it won't get Exciting. edit again: or actually maybe my AFCI concern is full of poo poo, because recent NEC rules are basically 'if it doesn't need GFCI, use AFCI' so i dunno maybe AFCIs have improved so you won't trip them with a vacuum cleaner anymore. I'm sure someone will be along shortly to quote my post and call me a big dummy. vv lmao i had five bucks on it being motronic but i'll take it. That's just what I was taught in a year of trade school, DC area. PopeCrunch fucked around with this message at 21:13 on Aug 18, 2020 |
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Aug 18, 2020 20:57
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PopeCrunch posted:Arc fault circuit interruptors don't play well with a number of stuff you're gonna be plugging in - motors especially. (Something something the brushes piss with the waveform in a way that tends to trip AFCI's.) Consider either running a different circuit for receptacles that isn't AFCI protected with one per room that's for stuff with motors (fans, vacuum cleaners, paper shredders, stuff like that), or you can play silly buggers with it and run two different circuits in a line for your receptacles - if you pry off the little doodad on a duplex receptacle, it'll let you have each receptacle on a different circuit, so that way you know 'okay when i'm vacuuming i gotta plug it in to the bottom one'. http://www.electrical101.com/split-receptacles.html - but note that you want to break off BOTH tabs, because although there are circumstances where sharing the neutral is AOK, 'keeping my drat vacuum cleaner from tripping the AFCI' is not one of them. Minor pain in the rear end in the wiring, but will save you a lot of trips to the breaker panel later. where do you live that either of those are a thing?
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Aug 18, 2020 21:10
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PopeCrunch posted:Arc fault circuit interruptors don't play well with a number of stuff you're gonna be plugging in - motors especially. (Something something the brushes piss with the waveform in a way that tends to trip AFCI's.) Consider either running a different circuit for receptacles that isn't AFCI protected with one per room that's for stuff with motors (fans, vacuum cleaners, paper shredders, stuff like that), or you can play silly buggers with it and run two different circuits in a line for your receptacles - if you pry off the little doodad on a duplex receptacle, it'll let you have each receptacle on a different circuit, so that way you know 'okay when i'm vacuuming i gotta plug it in to the bottom one'. http://www.electrical101.com/split-receptacles.html - but note that you want to break off BOTH tabs, because although there are circumstances where sharing the neutral is AOK, 'keeping my drat vacuum cleaner from tripping the AFCI' is not one of them. Minor pain in the rear end in the wiring, but will save you a lot of trips to the breaker panel later. I've heard the AFCI horror stories but I think I'm going to do as much research as I can for 'not totally frustrating garbage' breakers and go from there. I'm not sure the code office is going to be OK with me having non-AFCI plugs in a habitable room. They're already giving me weird vibes.
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Aug 19, 2020 01:36
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So I spent a few hours under the house today running cat6 as sort of a practice for The Real Thing. Partly to see if I can tolerate it and partly because I've been meaning to do it forever. I've also just had a 50-foot ethernet cable running under the house from the router to the office, so I moved the router to a nearby closet, put it on a shelf, and made a proper little home network hub. I am happy to report that I terminated the jacks correctly the first time and have networked internet in my office. Huzzah. Will be cutting holes and running jacks in a few other rooms tomorrow - the drops are done and sitting in the crawlspace waiting to be ran, tacked and terminated. So that's fun. While under the crawlspace I got some primo shots of the eldritch horror of my electrical system, to elucidate my desire to Remedy This loving Disaster ASAP. I also finally talked to several people at the code office. They're fine with NM 12/2 in crawl spaces - they don't consider it damp if it's not in contact with the earth, so that alleviates some potential headaches. They did have some murky answers on lighting in closets - wanting to ensure they're a safe distance from potential fire hazards, etc. I have some weird-rear end closets. They also want a light switch for every overhead light at every entrance to a room, which will be fun because 5 of the downstairs rooms have two entrances. Neat. Some porcelain tubes in the baseboard of my ripped-apart kitchen, still supplying power:  Under the main panel in the crawl space:  A.. a bit confused here:  A great shot at the open heart surgery performed on my HVAC a few months ago, apparently they couldn't find the cover panel. Also noticing now that white romex looks like there's a burn mark on it, will have to look again tomorrow. lol  Thick gauge cable for my oven being supported by several runs of romex and other poo poo, good job kitchen dudes who were happy to do lovely work for a little old lady:  Here, take a break and enjoy my amateur cat6 job. Still need to finish repairing the plaster and paint, but it WORKS so that's helpful  One of maybe 20 splices not in a junction box under the house:  Unsure what this is, looks like maybe a doorbell transformer? There's another working, in-use one toward the front of the house, so wonder if they deleted this one and just left it there. Or maybe it's something super dangerous and also vital. Didn't spend any time investigating:  This is romex spliced into a hot knob and tube wire, outside a box, lol:  Copper deterioration on the insulation of a neutral knob and tube wire, what the gently caress:  Spliced knob and tube hot missing any insulation whatsoever. This is bare, hot wire just chillin:  Fuckin house party and almost every era of wire has made an appearance. Thankfully I haven't found any aluminum in the house yet, save for the service line just installed (properly gauged of course):  Probably getting bored of these by now:    This is exactly what it looks like:    So tomorrow will be finishing up my little networking project and re-diagramming the circuit panel as it currently exists, because the electricians that ran new service did everything right but leave me a breakdown of the current panel. And also threw away the old panel. I am frankly surprised that there hasn't been an electrical fire here. Please pray for me. Thanks for reading. skylined! fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 19, 2020 01:53
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skylined! posted:I'm not sure the code office is going to be OK with me having non-AFCI plugs in a habitable room. They're already giving me weird vibes. I guarantee they will not be, and modern CAFCIs don't nuisance trip like the early ones did anyway. You can view the relevant sections of NEC here to get a general idea of what is required. ICC electrical code (Chapter 34 of this PDF) just refers to NEC anyway, hence the confusion between your local municipality and the electrician you spoke to. I will say that what you have there in your house currently isn't good but also isn't particularly surprising for the age of the house. If you can't replace or decommission the knob and tube right away at least put it on a 15A GFCI/AFCI combination breaker ASAP (sometimes called a DFCI) so any arcs or ground faults will trip it instead of causing fires and/or electrocutions while you plan out the rest of your work. E: Also stuff those romex to romex and romex to k&t splices into boxes right away.  E2: Sorry I just keep seeing more I should reply to. quote:Closets! Do fixtures have to be overhead, or is a wall mount OK? What to do if the fixture won't fit over a doorway? Must be overhead unless your local authority has a local amendment permitting wall-mounted lighting in closets. Flat LED kits that mount in a normal round box exist if you can't install anything that drops below the level of the ceiling and don't have room for a recessed can above. Also re: bathrooms, combining lighting and receptacles on one circuit is permitted so long as each bathroom has its own dedicated circuit. Dishwasher and disposal can generally share a 20A unless either appliance specifically says in the manual that it requires a dedicated circuit or you live in California. Some AHJs get picky about adjacent rooms (especially bedrooms > hallways) sharing lighting circuits so be sure to check with them about that. Bedroom receptacles are recommended to be 20A, not 15, and dining room /must/ be a dedicated 20A. Kitchen circuits must all be on AFCI breakers, you can use DFCIs in the places where GFCI protection is also required (countertop receptacles and anything 6' from the edge of a sink, etc.). Also for future-proofing sake it's generally recommended to run 20A circuits everywhere except for dedicated appliance circuits that specifically require a 15 since the breakers cost the same and 12/2 isn't that much more expensive than 14/2. corgski fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Aug 19, 2020 |
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Aug 19, 2020 08:26
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corgski posted:I guarantee they will not be, and modern CAFCIs don't nuisance trip like the early ones did anyway. Thanks for all this. Noticed while pricing out breakers yesterday your point on 15a and 20a basically being the same price. Also planning on everything being 12/2 (other than major appliances). The code office is going to schedule a pre-work walkthrough with me that should clear up any questions I have before beginning work, and allow multiple rough-in inspections to make spaces habitable as I go. Will help immensely and will clear some things up like adjacent room lights on the same circuit. I’ll have a detailed plan to review so that should also help.
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Aug 19, 2020 14:14
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Only had enough time this evening to run another network drop to the livingroom. The cutout in the plaster went a lot better this time - used an oscillating tool and a jab saw with minimal disruption to the surrounding plaster - no patching or coverup needed outside the wall plate. My plaster is super brittle and is definitely benefiting from structurally significant layers of paint. While untangling the 5 additional lines I dropped through the floor last night to run through the house I found a few more Very Fun and Exciting splices. I can't wait to start fixing this poo poo, oh my lord.  The neutral on the left has about an inch of bare wire and is being used to hold up the tangle of neutrals on the right with a bunch of splices and more bare wire. I have no idea where they even travel to. This poo poo is horrifying. I am surprised that half my outlets even work. I corraled my materials list and will throw it up in a google doc tomorrow, if any Smarter Than Me goons care to review and tell me all the wrong things I am buying and don't need, or am not buying and do need. Thankfully I have pretty much all the tools I think I need, at least. Oh, here are some gratuitous floor murder shots from our kitchen if anyone is interested. We knew we had some water damage under the water heater when we bought the house and would eventually have to excavate; thankfully the damage was about what we thought it was and our GC is taking care of it. Crime scene  You can see some of the rot on this joist. They braced it and some others before covering it up. Feels solid!  This was maybe a quarter of what they ripped up out of the floor. We have a layer of plywood, then decking, then subfloor, and then more plywood in this kitchen. It was all sandwiched pretty competently and the layering probably helped prolong the life of the water-damaged flooring but gently caress it's a lot of poo poo to rip out.  Covered. Feels sturdy!  skylined! fucked around with this message at 03:27 on Aug 21, 2020 |
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Aug 21, 2020 03:18
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Been there, done that, don't want to go back. When I was in your situation I only wanted to replace the flooring and a day later I could see from the basement into the utility room.
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Aug 21, 2020 21:43
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Added another ethernet drop, found more crazy and alarming poo poo. Also re-mapped my panel today since our electricians threw out the old one. What the gently caress is going on here? I couldn't identify several of the circuits; at least one of them goes to exterior halogen lights that we removed the bulbs from because they were wired always-on, with no switch. One or two probably also go to dedicated outlets for previously installed window units, before the HVAC was installed - they're all covered by furniture that I didn't want to move to inspect. Several of these circuits are clogged as hell. Really can't wait to start rewiring this poo poo. 
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Aug 25, 2020 21:50
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So, some movement today. Got the dryer plug moved to the new laundry area. 20 DFCI breakers also arrived, and some will start to go into the panel soon. City ordinance guy also did an info walkthrough with me - he seemed more concerned with following the spirit of the code rather than going through each individual line item with me, though I imagine the inspection piece will be different. Also walked through the electrical plan for the kitchen with the electrician, which should be roughed in by Thursday. Going out of town this weekend and then starting work on downstairs outlets. Can't wait... I think.
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Sep 1, 2020 01:03
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So got some work done. Added two outlets to the front porch, tied in the doorbell to the circuit, added an outlet near the HVAC under the house (current outlet is on the same circuit as the HVAC), and got the circuit on a GFI breaker on the service panel. Also put the bathroom on a DFCI, previously on a regular breaker, so it's done. Put a 50A breaker in for the oven while I was in the inside panel, replaced a 30A. Took 5 hours but the one circuit I added is properly supported, splices are boxed, etc and it just feels good to get something done. Inspector is coming tomorrow to look at the rough-in for the kitchen. Will add exterior outlet to the back tomorrow then begin cutting holes for interior first floor room outlets, hopefully getting them all wired this weekend.
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Sep 11, 2020 01:38
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I'd suggest going for 20 amp circuits for the window air conditioners - it's minimal extra cost and it'll let you upsize them later. Also consider leaving room in the breaker box so you can convert those to 240v circuits later if you need a bigger AC. Do you need that outdoor subpanel? That seems fairly useless for 3 circuits? I'd suggest a whole house surge protector too. Might be a good idea to start the project by putting in a bunch of lighting in the crawlspace, to make your life less miserable.
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Sep 13, 2020 23:21
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devicenull posted:I'd suggest going for 20 amp circuits for the window air conditioners - it's minimal extra cost and it'll let you upsize them later. Also consider leaving room in the breaker box so you can convert those to 240v circuits later if you need a bigger AC. Thanks. I updated all breakers to 20a either dfci for interior circuits or gfci for exterior. Future proofing with the sub panel outside, and I do a bit of woodworking every now and then so it’ll be nice to have if I ever need dedicated circuits. Definitely putting the two window units we use on their own circuit and will have space in the panel to upgrade down the road if need be - theyre also easy runs from panel to the units if wire needs to be changed as well. So I put in outlets in our utility room today and I’m trying not to get discouraged. Our nest thermostat is suddenly giving an e103 error - overcurrent protection issue with the yellow wire. I *may* have bumped the main panel that the AC guy never covered while working in the crawl space today however I checked everything and no jumpers are disconnected etc. Wire behind the thermostat itself is fine. It all seems fine so hoping it’s just weird timing with a worn out part - the AC unit is 21 years old. It’s on its own circuit as well, which I haven’t touched at all. I called our AC guy to come take a look in the AM, it’s still 85-90 here for a few more weeks... So because we are only running the fan and not whole house AC, we turned the overhead fan in the bedroom on high for the first time in a year. It’s a two year old remote fan. Ten minutes in and it turned itself off. An hour after turning it back on the light turned on all by itself. Really hoping this stuff is unrelated. My work under the house for the new circuits looks good and clean and does not tie into the existing knob and tube or the HVAC circuit at all. I did remove and cap some k+t from old outlets I de commissioned but it shouldn’t be telling the fan to turn itself on or off. Ugh. Here, have some jank-rear end MC splices circa 1950? that I removed today. This was feeding a two prong outlet under the interior panel, still using porcelain duplex and porcelain cover, and the old timey metal boxes that were four+ pieces screwed together. Oh they also drilled through a solid 12 inch joist to get to the middle of the wall instead of going at an angle. Just right through an entire foot of solid wood.  
skylined! fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Sep 14, 2020 |
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Sep 14, 2020 03:59
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| # ? Apr 24, 2024 08:34 |
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So apparently I shorted a wire to the AC blower while strapping the line to a joist in the crawl space. It wasn't secure from the panel alllll the way to the fan, about a thirty foot run, so I stapled it up. Noticed the last staple or two had the line pretty taught but didn't think anything of it. Fast forward a day later, apparently the tension was enough to rub one of the wires bare and was shorting it out. Shame on me, I guess. Installing whole-home surge protector today, and marking out the next room's outlets. skylined! fucked around with this message at 21:03 on Sep 14, 2020 |
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Sep 14, 2020 20:58
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