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SlothBear
Jan 25, 2009



Schadenboner posted:

In CK3 can you still blind and castrate inadequate first sons if Greek?

Ah yup.

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How are u
May 19, 2005

"I interpret Biden saying we didn't put kids in cages as more accurately saying our policy was not just to lock kids in cages,"

drat, those Greeks are hardcore.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

Horned Rat-Sempai Noticed Me!


Isn't "Gold" supposed to be an abstraction of peasant labor/food and raw materials/actual coinage?

megane
Jun 20, 2008





Yeah, I think it mentions in a tooltip somewhere that it's an abstraction of your general wealth and assets more than actual currency. But then it turns around and treats it as hard cash in other circumstances, so

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



SirPhoebos posted:

Isn't "Gold" supposed to be an abstraction of peasant labor/food and raw materials/actual coinage?

Yes, but as stated it's real inconsistent, and there's also no way to have your vassals come do military service for you. Which you know, was kind of emblematic of western feudalism.

Fighting wars together should also be one of the major activities of the game that sees you interacting both with your vassals, and other vassals in the realm, developing friendships and rivalries.

Moon Slayer
Jun 19, 2007



PittTheElder posted:

Yes, but as stated it's real inconsistent, and there's also no way to have your vassals come do military service for you. Which you know, was kind of emblematic of western feudalism.

Fighting wars together should also be one of the major activities of the game that sees you interacting both with your vassals, and other vassals in the realm, developing friendships and rivalries.

This is going to sound flippant and dismissive of your concerns and I really don't mean it that way because you've raised some interesting points that I never would have thought about otherwise, but it sounds like you'd much rather play a D&D campaign based around politicking than a simulation video game.

e: to which I would say hey, me too

Moon Slayer fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jun 8, 2021

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Nah I get where you're coming from, I've just always been more of a video game guy. But hey if somebody offered me that DnD campaign I wouldn't say no.

CK3 really seems to have the bones of something amazing, I just want the simulation to be more grounded in (the admittedly very complex) historical reality.

Serephina
Nov 8, 2005



Moon Slayer posted:

This is going to sound flippant and dismissive of your concerns and I really don't mean it that way because you've raised some interesting points that I never would have thought about otherwise, but it sounds like you'd much rather play a D&D campaign based around politicking than a simulation video game.

e: to which I would say hey, me too

Nah, CK absolutely has the groundwork to do loyalty things. You might need to do something weird like separate bars for loyalty vs personal opinion or whatever, but the game is fully set up to do those things. Like friendship/rivalry is STILL in ck3, despite not dong nearly as much as you'd like.

PancakeTransmission
May 27, 2007

You gotta improvise, Lisa: cloves, Tom Collins mix, frozen pie crust...




Plaster Town Cop

Serephina posted:

Like friendship/rivalry is STILL in ck3, despite not dong nearly as much as you'd like.
I keep ending up with my Rivals dying in my Prison, despite never knowing who they are! How am I getting Rivals if I, the player, don't know them? I would at least expect to know them - and they always seem to be unlanded nobodies - why would my character, a double-emperor, give a poo poo about this nobody? This fucker wouldn't even get entrance to my court!

Quorum
Sep 24, 2014

REMIND ME AGAIN HOW THE LITTLE HORSE-SHAPED ONES MOVE?


PancakeTransmission posted:

I keep ending up with my Rivals dying in my Prison, despite never knowing who they are! How am I getting Rivals if I, the player, don't know them? I would at least expect to know them - and they always seem to be unlanded nobodies - why would my character, a double-emperor, give a poo poo about this nobody? This fucker wouldn't even get entrance to my court!

People will develop rivalries with you over time as you keep them in prison, iirc. It's very helpful for farming stress relief, just pop in from time to time to do monstrous stuff to them any time you feel tense, bing bong so simple!

The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008



Fun Shoe

Quorum posted:

People will develop rivalries with you over time as you keep them in prison, iirc. It's very helpful for farming stress relief, just pop in from time to time to do monstrous stuff to them any time you feel tense, bing bong so simple!

Yeah the fact that rivalry is always considered a two-way street is a bit weird, although it's probably intended to keep things simpler for the player. It would maybe make more sense if there was like a step on the way towards rivalry that was just "hatred" or something, where if one character hates another they just get that, but if both characters hate each other, then they become rivals.

SirPhoebos
Dec 10, 2007

Horned Rat-Sempai Noticed Me!


The Cheshire Cat posted:

Yeah the fact that rivalry is always considered a two-way street is a bit weird, although it's probably intended to keep things simpler for the player. It would maybe make more sense if there was like a step on the way towards rivalry that was just "hatred" or something, where if one character hates another they just get that, but if both characters hate each other, then they become rivals.

If they do allow for one-way rivalries, then there should also be an achievement for having a ludicrous number of 'rivals' that you don't care about named "To me, it was Thor's day"

Knuc U Kinte
Aug 17, 2004



PittTheElder posted:

I went to go start a game since the patch is out, was hoping to play as a vassal of somebody because the game is just far more fun that way, but holy hell it's nearly unplayable once you notice how loving badly the AI performs. From the 1066 start you can watch as top level rulers immediately grant all their vassals away to intermediate level vassals, hamstringing themselves in the process. And it happens every time, within months of starting the game. It's such an obvious problem, how is this allowed to persist?

"Congratulations on your accession to the throne, what would you like to do today sire"
"Please strengthen my most likely opponents as much as possible, can't see any problem with that!"


I probably need to stop playing this game. It has so much promise, and at it's core has a fun loop, but it's literally an inch deep. You can map paint, or you can incest it up, but that's about it.

Another fantastic patch.

bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

hes dead


Nap Ghost

testing is a majority of a software projects value to end user. testing is never a majority of a software projects budget. not even close.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Eh that's not even really the case with CK3. The game runs like a dream. What's missing I suspect is more on the design side of the development V.

And to their credit, the stuff that I feel is missing is the harder stuff. Design of these system would ideally involve not only technical competency but a reasonable understanding of the historical context of the era. I genuinely wonder how Paradox handles that, since it's unlikely they have a battery of academics to consult with. I really hope it's not sending the developers to read Wikipedia.

PancakeTransmission posted:

I keep ending up with my Rivals dying in my Prison, despite never knowing who they are! How am I getting Rivals if I, the player, don't know them? I would at least expect to know them - and they always seem to be unlanded nobodies - why would my character, a double-emperor, give a poo poo about this nobody? This fucker wouldn't even get entrance to my court!

Yeah it's because rivalries are two way, anyone who counts you as a rival (because you've imprisoned them) is also your rival, which is kinda silly.

Conversely Friendship is almost too easy (for instance it's trivially easy to Befriend your liege), but the rewards are extremely one sided (as a liege you want your vassals to be your friend so that they can't join factions against you and do council work better, but as a vassal you get nothing out of supporting your liege).

Knuc U Kinte posted:

Another fantastic patch.

It's nothing to do with the patch, it was exactly the same before the patch. Still waiting to see whether the Crusade pathing is any better at least, before the patch I'd seen games worth of Crusades fail as the Christians attempted to path through Mesopotamia, the Persian Gulf and Red Sea all in order to go try and reland in the Negev.

PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 04:37 on Jun 9, 2021

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


SirPhoebos posted:

Isn't "Gold" supposed to be an abstraction of peasant labor/food and raw materials/actual coinage?

No, that would make it akin to... Mana! And we there hate mana. Gold is a literal number of coins you have. They can teleport around the world when you tell it to go to a character. All your farms and mines dig gold out of the ground. If you throw gold on the ground it will turn into buildings so you don't have to worry about materials or labor. Really it's like dust from Endless games.

ilitarist fucked around with this message at 14:46 on Jun 9, 2021

Knuc U Kinte
Aug 17, 2004



PittTheElder posted:

It's nothing to do with the patch, it was exactly the same before the patch.

Oh, that's much better.

A Strange Aeon
Mar 26, 2010

You are now a slimy little toad


The Great Twist

ilitarist posted:

No, that would make it akin to... Mana! And we there hate people. Gold is literal number of coins you have. They can teleport around the world when you tell it to go to a character. All your farms and mines dig gold out of the ground. If you throw it to the ground it will turn into buildings so you don't have to worry about materials or buildings. Really it's like dust from Endless games.

Yeah, your pet dog can't find abstract manual labor and hand you 2 units of it!

Femtosecond
Aug 2, 2003



Died and playing as the son with great stewardship but lousy diplomacy (gets stressed when he tries to sway lmao) so of course all the vassals are agitating and creating factions to rebel.

I'm about 7 or so months until an ultimatum. What should I do?

I've already married off nephews and nieces to two of the strongest to create alliances to take them out of the faction but no more alliances are allowed.

My Father in various wars just a year or so before had occupied the capital of Mercia and England and so I had the King of England's wife and son in my dungeon. Seems like if you execute those I get +30 dread instead of the +10 I'd get for normies. So I did that and everyone in the faction is terrified of me, but doesn't seem to be resulting in any one dropping out of the faction.

Giving people gifts for like +10 friendship to get them into the green hasn't seemed to do much.

toasterwarrior
Nov 11, 2011


Honestly you may just want to save up and buy mercs for the coming war. You could also acquiesce to their demands depending on which faction rebels; might be worth taking a crown authority hit if it means you get to stay in power, for example.

trapped mouse
May 25, 2008



Femtosecond posted:

Died and playing as the son with great stewardship but lousy diplomacy (gets stressed when he tries to sway lmao) so of course all the vassals are agitating and creating factions to rebel.

I'm about 7 or so months until an ultimatum. What should I do?

I've already married off nephews and nieces to two of the strongest to create alliances to take them out of the faction but no more alliances are allowed.

My Father in various wars just a year or so before had occupied the capital of Mercia and England and so I had the King of England's wife and son in my dungeon. Seems like if you execute those I get +30 dread instead of the +10 I'd get for normies. So I did that and everyone in the faction is terrified of me, but doesn't seem to be resulting in any one dropping out of the faction.

Giving people gifts for like +10 friendship to get them into the green hasn't seemed to do much.

How much stronger is the faction? Those usually aren't too hard to defeat even if they have more men, their armies all start split off so if you're clever you can pick them off one by one. And you can just hire mercs from the treasury that dear old dad left behind.

Femtosecond
Aug 2, 2003



trapped mouse posted:

How much stronger is the faction? Those usually aren't too hard to defeat even if they have more men, their armies all start split off so if you're clever you can pick them off one by one. And you can just hire mercs from the treasury that dear old dad left behind.

Huh I didn't even look into how strong the faction will be... Is there a way to see what their army will be. It's like... uhh def more than 8 vassals.

Femtosecond
Aug 2, 2003



I'm about 50 years left of playing of my first game. Here's where I'm at from the "tutorial island" start as Duke of Munster. Somehow along the way I became culturally Scottish... Capitol is still Dublin though. (Not shown I also own Iceland)



I've been bashing my head against Mercia for hundreds of years trying to conquer the rest of Wales but it's been staggeringly difficult. England is very strong. I suspect a lot of my places are very undeveloped. Trying to finally conquer Wales will be my focus for the last 50 years of the game.

In the last few hundred years out of the blue I inherited some dutchy in the south of France and got distracted with that for a good long while.

Random comments/discoveries from my experience of this game:
======================================================

* At some point I converted to Insular Christianity and honestly the multiple wives thing seems kinda OP in that it really allowed me to get a poo poo ton of kids that I could leverage to get good alliances, make my dynasty massive and even just have more bodies to marry off to super high prowress knights. This is how I ended up with all sorts of dynastic alliances in France and unintentionally inheriting a dutchy in the South of France.

* Late game ransoming people seemed not really worth the money (or I didn't have the perk that made it pay out or the money got nerfed in some patch?? I feel it went from 300 gold to like 20...). One move that seemed good as an alternative was if they were a single kid to recruit them, then marry them off to one of my kids. Good way to marry off someone's primary heir. (I just started doing this so haven't seen if it actually works or if they like break off the betrothal at some point or something).

* I'm terrible at combat. Late game my ability to do any sort of elaborate strategy goes out the window as it seems like the AI just stacks everything into a single 30,000+ unit and hunts me down.

* Probably the tip that most significantly "changed the game" for me was to use your court + the find character tool to search for super high prowress knights and physicians. Use marry matrilinial with random women in your court to bring these super soldiers into your own court.

* When your father dies and you have a single mother, marrying her off to some no name from eastern europe because he's 33 prowress and you want him as a knight feels bad man.

======================================================

I dunno what I want to do for my next game. I think something nordic considering that the recent patch adds so much for that. Being some minor duke in a bigger established kingdom would be compelling change of pace too. Anyone have any suggestions?

Femtosecond fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Jun 10, 2021

pidan
Nov 6, 2012



Sieges are way to fast now, aren't they? It used to take years every time, and now they literally last about ten days. Lost me an independence war when moving my troops from Greece to Armenia took more time than sieging down all of Armenia did.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Sieges are now rapid if their garrison is depleted. And if you're continuing a game from a previous patch there's a bug where all holdings will have zero garrison until they get sieged down once, then they'll rebuild normally.

Femtosecond posted:

Huh I didn't even look into how strong the faction will be... Is there a way to see what their army will be. It's like... uhh def more than 8 vassals.

The faction screen will show the strength of each faction relative to you, in percentage terms.

Also just fight it out. If you lose you lose, most of the fun in this game comes from the sudden realization you've bitten off way more than you can chew.

PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 06:47 on Jun 10, 2021

pidan
Nov 6, 2012



PittTheElder posted:

Sieges are now rapid if their garrison is depleted. And if you're continuing a game from a previous patch there's a bug where all holdings will have zero garrison until they get sieged down once, then they'll rebuild normally.

That's probably it, and explains why some peasant was able to besiege my Constantinople with 500 guys. Oh well

PancakeTransmission
May 27, 2007

You gotta improvise, Lisa: cloves, Tom Collins mix, frozen pie crust...




Plaster Town Cop

PittTheElder posted:

Sieges are now rapid if their garrison is depleted. And if you're continuing a game from a previous patch there's a bug where all holdings will have zero garrison until they get sieged down once, then they'll rebuild normally.

The faction screen will show the strength of each faction relative to you, in percentage terms.

Also just fight it out. If you lose you lose, most of the fun in this game comes from the sudden realization you've bitten off way more than you can chew.
Yeah in my last game (first one that I actually got to 1453!), I lost multiple kingdoms due to crusades, claimant factions in the middle of other wars, etc. It's still fun to then use those claims you had to get it back later.

Only time I restart or quit is when it's very early game and my specific (not necessarily achievement) goal can't really be done - eg starting as one of those Persian Zoroastrian counts, I keep loving it up and having my liege destroyed by neighbours. I think I need to take my Duke down before they do, then swear fealty to a big neighbour and try to get religious protection in early? Or is it a better idea to just convert when demanded by a liege and then try to convert back later when I have the power to say no?

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play


Femtosecond posted:

Huh I didn't even look into how strong the faction will be... Is there a way to see what their army will be. It's like... uhh def more than 8 vassals.

You can see their total army strength relative to yours as a percentage in the faction screen, and you can show individual members to see their individual army size (though I don't remember if that includes a breakdown of their mem at arms). If their power is really close to the threshold, sometimes targeting just one or two members with sway schemes, blackmail that gives a strong hook, or befriending them will cause the entire faction to fall apart. The faction screen shows faction members in order according to their military contribution, and the people at the end of the list are often trivial, contributing only a percent or two to the faction's strength, while people at the top of the list might represent 30% or more.

On the other hand if I'm playing as a young ruler who has inherited level 3 or 4 crown authority and the prospects aren't good, I'll often just acquiesce to the demands of the rebels to avoid the risk of losing the war. You can spend the rest of your reign plotting to get back at them, and if you inherit young and rule for a long time, you'll have plenty of time to raise the authority back up. As my current ruler I had to lower to authority 2 to avoid a rebellion when I was a young queen, and now that I'm old and feared I'm back up to 4.

I'm finally starting to figure out how to dismantle a faction without relying entirely on assassinations or overwhelming military power (though those help). What I haven't yet figured out are the steps I should be taking as an old and secure ruler to pass a stable realm onto my heir. I'm fine being punished for stupid decisions or roleplaying, but I don't want to lose ground just because I don't understand how certain systems work.

Virtually all of my vassals just rose up against me after I passed absolute crown authority, but I have powerful allies and a huge army and now they've all been imprisoned. If I want to put my heir in a good position, should I consider revoking the rebels' titles/claims and granting them to loyalists so my son will get the "positive opinion of predecessor" opinion boost? Or are there potential negative consequences I haven't considered to that amount of upheaval? If they're in prison when I die, are they all released?

Femtosecond
Aug 2, 2003



PittTheElder posted:


Also just fight it out. If you lose you lose, most of the fun in this game comes from the sudden realization you've bitten off way more than you can chew.

I agree. I have done that before in a previous succession. It feels enormously good to win and strip vassals of their titles and put in my own dynasty members.

SlothBear
Jan 25, 2009



PittTheElder posted:

Also just fight it out. If you lose you lose, most of the fun in this game comes from the sudden realization you've bitten off way more than you can chew.

Yup, then you get to claw your way back up and it's much more fun and rewarding to succeed.

Why I love Crusader Kings, it's by far the most fun strategy game to lose at. Would be even morseo if you can play as unlanded.

Antlerhill
Nov 6, 2012



Smellrose

Yeah, if you could go around as a wandering character from place to place, ROTK style, that would be really fun.

I don't think that's something they have any intention of adding though. They had a billion chances with all the CK2 DLC to add it in and didn't.

Cognac McCarthy
Oct 5, 2008

It's a man's game, but boys will play


Femtosecond posted:

I agree. I have done that before in a previous succession. It feels enormously good to win and strip vassals of their titles and put in my own dynasty members.

I did this a little too liberally in one run when I had a huge dynasty, and ended up with rival claimants trying to overthrow me every ten years

So now I sprinkle in unlanded commoners when handing out a bunch of titles, since they'll like me for it and won't be a threat

Vichan
Oct 1, 2014

I'LL PUNISH YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR CRIME

Antlerhill posted:

Yeah, if you could go around as a wandering character from place to place, ROTK style, that would be really fun.

I don't think that's something they have any intention of adding though. They had a billion chances with all the CK2 DLC to add it in and didn't.

Honestly with the changes to landless characters at least they've left the option open so I'm cautiously optimistic.

Femtosecond
Aug 2, 2003



Cognac McCarthy posted:


So now I sprinkle in unlanded commoners when handing out a bunch of titles, since they'll like me for it and won't be a threat

This actually seems like a thing where the devs should make it so that existing noble vassals get mad at you for uplifting mere commoners.

Do other vassals of a same culture group get mad at you if you give a dutchy of that culture to a different culture person? That should also probably make them mad at you.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Nah they don't care at all. They should probably also get upset with you if they have claims on it and you pass over them to hand it to some nobody, but none of that complexity is there.


But hey, you as a landed ruler can create a whole new religion, a thing that happened <checks notes> zero times throughout the period, so that's cool right?

PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Jun 10, 2021

CharlestheHammer
Jun 26, 2011

YOU SAY MY POSTS ARE THE RAVINGS OF THE DUMBEST PERSON ON GOD'S GREEN EARTH BUT YOU YOURSELF ARE READING THEM. CURIOUS!


Next you will tell me the Aztecs didnít invade Europe? Scandalous!

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

I fight with
my brain
and with an
underlying
hatred of the
Erebonian
Noble Faction


It's fine, though. Because if they have their own claim or if it's de jure part of their main title, they will desire it and have a negative opinion, not of you, but of the vassal. And if you don't stop them from warring, then they have the means to steal the title.

And hey, if they should be overlord and you don't give the new vassal to them as their own vassal, they'll be mad at you, too.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



CharlestheHammer posted:

Next you will tell me the Aztecs didn’t invade Europe? Scandalous!

It's funny, 'cause I actually love Sunset Invasion as an explicity huge counterfactual scenario (and also one that doesn't happen every game), but then seeing the Catholic Church be a non-institution and Rome be modeled as an idealized Norman feudal state every game just gets to me.

Magil Zeal
Nov 24, 2008



PittTheElder posted:

But hey, you as a landed ruler can create a whole new religion, a thing that happened <checks notes> zero times throughout the period, so that's cool right?

Which is objectively the correct design decision.

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bob dobbs is dead
Oct 8, 2017

hes dead


Nap Ghost

i think the ck3 counterfactual dlc should be time travelling ancient romans

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