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eonwe
Aug 11, 2008



Lipstick Apathy

I watched enough videos to see that its newbie friendly and it looks like a game I've always wanted to play so I went ahead and bought it

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Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


eonwe posted:

I watched enough videos to see that its newbie friendly and it looks like a game I've always wanted to play so I went ahead and bought it

Yay! Welcome to the club, eonwe


I'm really torn on who to play first after the tutorial. I think I'll probably play like 50 years as Murchad in Ireland, just to be sure I understand most mechanics. Unless the tutorial is so good that I'm already feeling confident about my understanding of the game. But then there are so many intriguing options. One of the new faiths you can play in the expanded parts of Africa allow for river sailing, and the Niger is right there! I mean, look at this:



The course of the river makes it possible to easily raid practically everybody, this is so cool. And it's great that you can play fully developed non-Abrahamic African rulers from the start.

On the other hand, when major DLCs hit, I usually would bust out the Umayyads, and retake the Caliphate from those traitorous Abbassids, making sure none of their blood remain (which is pretty difficult with a dynasty that regularly has 100+ members). The expanded African map also brings additional opportunities and challenges to a Southern Spanish start. And there are also special buildings to consider:



How about returning the Umayyads to their rightful places as Caliphs, while also building the Alhambra? That sounds good, too. But I've already done this half a dozen times...

And I'd also like to try out the new start in Myanmar, unlike many others, I've always liked playing in the region of India and Tibet. Especially now that the Western Protectorate is no longer present.

Choices, choices. I'm super excited for the game!

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




Once I get done relearning the easy mode that is the Christian world, then follow that up with the classic Byzantium Reforms Rome and Beats the Not Holy, Not Roman, Not Empire, but after all that I'm interested in doing some cool dumb poo poo elsewhere, and yall are giving some great suggestions.

Chalks
Sep 30, 2009



I've always had a soft spot for playing as a vassal of a large kingdom before bursting forth in an independence war. CK2 had a Norse duke in frisia I think, creating a Norse kingdom from inside a Cristian one is fun.

Tirranek
Feb 13, 2014


This will be the first CK game I’ve played properly, looking forward to it! Played a little bit of CK2 on Ireland and was wondering if there are any other newbie friendly starts people would recommend?

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Tirranek posted:

This will be the first CK game I’ve played properly, looking forward to it! Played a little bit of CK2 on Ireland and was wondering if there are any other newbie friendly starts people would recommend?

Since the game isn't out yet, we can't tell for sure which starts will be newbie friendly. But look at this stream highlight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyxjYtoFDSE#t=14s

The game will suggest various easier and harder starts to you, several for each region and start date.

Torrannor fucked around with this message at 08:06 on Aug 24, 2020

Eimi
Nov 23, 2013





Funky Valentine posted:

It's time to bring back the old Egyptian religion.

The weak cults of the modern world shall submit before the blazing glory of Amun-Ra.

The fact that the Khemetic faith should be playable, at launch even, is great. I now have another ancient religion beyond Hellenism to bring back.

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


Captain Beans posted:

Anyone else actually disliking the new UI? I miss some of the lighter colored backgrounds with the color of parchment paper, the new UI looks like the forums on darkmode.

Not really. I think the UI is a huge improvement in basically all respects. I do think that the UI can seem a bit too dark when only looking at screenshots, especially if the map is cut out, But in streams, since those parts of the UI only cover like 1/3 of your screen, it actually looks fine.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


Torrannor posted:

Since the game isn't out yet, we can't tell for sure which starts will be newbie friendly. But look at this stream highlight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyxjYtoFDSE#t=14s

The game will suggest various easier and harder starts to you, several for each region and start date.

I really like EU4 starting screen describing country and region-specific situations. Some other modern grand strategy games like Fields of Glory Empires have similar features. Of course, it's very generic for many countries but it's still cool. Now that CK3 has only pre-defined start dates I hope they make more characters with descriptions and suggestions.

Dwesa
Jul 19, 2016

Might die, but eh.


orangelex44 posted:

Anyone have their first game planned yet? I think I'm going to try being one of the Viking invaders of England in the early start, it seems like a good chance to test out the new religion mechanics in a relatively, but not entirely, isolated position. My traditional warm-up of Irish petty king -> high king -> crusader king can wait until the second go-round.
Tutorial (Ireland), then I will try some pagan tribal ruler (maybe Norse or whatever is it called in CK3) which I will probably find to be quite hectic. Then maybe Bengal in India, because it was usually quite chill.

Dwesa fucked around with this message at 08:32 on Aug 24, 2020

UrbicaMortis
Feb 16, 2012

Hmm, how shall I post today?



I'm going to start with tutorial Ireland to get up to speed with the new stuff and also because I like starting there anyway. At some point I want to start as a Cornish character and make a big Cornish Empire but will probably wait until I have a bit more game mastery.

Goons Are Great
Nov 24, 2013

Please drink responsibly




After like 2000 hours of CK2 the fact that I feel it might become necessary to play the tutorial in CK3 in of itself already feels promising. Can't this week be over more quickly??

bluegoon
Mar 5, 2010

by Pragmatica


Goons Are Great posted:

After like 2000 hours of CK2 the fact that I feel it might become necessary to play the tutorial in CK3 in of itself already feels promising. Can't this week be over more quickly??

Do you think this will be like a culmination of all the DLC content from CK2?

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


In CK2 pagans felt like a tutorial faction. They're strong and expand easily, they don't have a future but also few limiting factors. The earliest start date has Minsk Duchy (200 years before first mention of the city of Minsk but oh well) which is where I live. I suspect it'd be pagan, so I'll try that. Also lets me instantly see if they really went and made all the regions equally interesting instead of making everyone "like Western European Catholic BUT with some quirks".

Davincie
Jul 7, 2008

Wiggle to the right
Wiggle to the left
Wiggle to the post that's best


Torrannor posted:

Yay! Welcome to the club, eonwe


I'm really torn on who to play first after the tutorial. I think I'll probably play like 50 years as Murchad in Ireland, just to be sure I understand most mechanics. Unless the tutorial is so good that I'm already feeling confident about my understanding of the game. But then there are so many intriguing options. One of the new faiths you can play in the expanded parts of Africa allow for river sailing, and the Niger is right there! I mean, look at this:



The course of the river makes it possible to easily raid practically everybody, this is so cool. And it's great that you can play fully developed non-Abrahamic African rulers from the start.

On the other hand, when major DLCs hit, I usually would bust out the Umayyads, and retake the Caliphate from those traitorous Abbassids, making sure none of their blood remain (which is pretty difficult with a dynasty that regularly has 100+ members). The expanded African map also brings additional opportunities and challenges to a Southern Spanish start. And there are also special buildings to consider:



How about returning the Umayyads to their rightful places as Caliphs, while also building the Alhambra? That sounds good, too. But I've already done this half a dozen times...

And I'd also like to try out the new start in Myanmar, unlike many others, I've always liked playing in the region of India and Tibet. Especially now that the Western Protectorate is no longer present.

Choices, choices. I'm super excited for the game!

the main thing i wonder for those outside of europe locations is how content filled they are. sure they're in technically, but any mechanics that represent their unique situations have had 0 attention in dev diaries.

Demiurge4
Aug 10, 2011



If anyone's interested there will be a daily MP game running on the Mapgoons discord for the release week. Four 3 hour sessions during the week, punctuated by a marathon 8 hour session on the Saturday.

The theme for the game is CHAOS, and you will be required to switch to another dynastic branch each of the 4 weekday sessions (if your starting dynasty doesn't have enough branches you'll have to switch to another dynasty altogether) but this restriction is removed for the marathon session and you can play any of your old branches.

This is a one-off game for shits and giggles and nobody is expected to take it seriously or even show up for all the sessions.

GHOST_BUTT
Nov 24, 2013



Fun Shoe

The new technology system, with regionally specific ideas, looks/feels pretty similar to the EU4 national ideas system, which is a good thing.

Oh dear me
Aug 14, 2012




UrbicaMortis posted:

At some point I want to start as a Cornish character and make a big Cornish Empire

This is my default CK game. Onen hag oll (under my sway)

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha

I always pick someone really small, because surely the dream is to build up your dynasty from humble beginnings. Also it just feels less overwhelming to start with a small realm and only a few vassals.

I never got the appeal of the official recommended "interesting characters" that are already powerful kings.

Veryslightlymad
Jun 3, 2007

I fight with
my brain
and with an
underlying
hatred of the
Erebonian
Noble Faction


I'm gonna hit that big random button until I start as someone else's vassal.

The Bold Kobold
Aug 11, 2014

Bold to the point of certain death.


Funky Valentine posted:

It's time to bring back the old Egyptian religion.

The weak cults of the modern world shall submit before the blazing glory of Amun-Ra.

If we're bringing back the Khemetic faith then I wanna bring Gaelic-Celtic Paganism back to the Isles, with Dublin as my capital.

Tír na nÓg awaits!

Torrannor
Apr 27, 2013

---FAGNER---
TEAM-MATE


bluegoon posted:

Do you think this will be like a culmination of all the DLC content from CK2?

In a way, it is. Of course there are several DLC features that didn't carry over, like merchant republics and hordes, China, societies, the Silk Road, etc. But many features are now integrated into the base game, which probably makes a huge difference how seamlessly they work with the rest of the mechanics. As I've mentioned in the OP, religion has a much more robust system than CK2 with all DLCs. I'll try to point out some of the biggest changes to CK2, they are truly massive:

Religions are now organized in tiers. The highest tier is the religious family, of which there are three: Abrahamic (Christians, Muslims, Jews), Eastern (I'm not sure about the correct subdivisions here) and Pagan. Next tier down are the individual religions, i.e. Christians, Muslims, Dharmic (I believe?), etc. Next one down are the individual faiths, the "actual" religion your character follows, so they're Catholics, or Orthodox, or Hindus, or they follow Astartu (=Norse). Different faiths now have different levels of religious hostility against each other:

-Righteous faiths are basically only their own faith, except for certain exception due to doctrines/tenets (basically the traits of different faiths). There's no opinion penalty.
-Astray faiths are faiths that are just a bit wrong from your own faith. Compare the much reduced "wrong religion" penalty between Catholics and Orthodox in CK2 to the "wrong religion" penalty between Catholics and Muslims.
-Hostile faiths are heresies of your religion, or truly incompatible foreign faiths. Again, see Muslims and Catholics in CK2 as an example. You can holy war hostile faiths, and while marriages between faiths are not impossible, they will be rare.
-Evil faiths are faiths that your faith simply cannot tolerate, your beliefs are too different. You cannot marry characters from a faith your faith considers evil (or vice versa), and holy wars against each other will be common.

Now, how do you know which faith will be considered evil or merely astray? Have a chart:



As you note, Abrahamic faiths view basically any faith not their own at least as hostile, and most will be considered evil, while Eastern faiths won't even consider faiths of another religious family as evil. You might wonder what happened to the famous relatively high acceptance between Catholic and Orthodox, when according to this chart, those two faiths should consider each other hostile?

That's where tenets and doctrines come in. As written above, doctrines are basically traits that differentiate faiths from one another. Tenets work like doctrines, but they much more define central characteristics of a faith. Each faith has at least 18 doctrines, but they all have exactly three tenets. And no two faiths share the exact same combination of tenets, making each one more unique. Anyway, Catholic, Orthodox, Apostolic, and Coptic faiths all have the same Ecumenism doctrine:



Muslims have similar doctrines, making all Sunnis treat each other as astray, and all Shiites treat each other as astray.

There's also a stronger version for Gnostic faiths:



This works even if the faiths are of different religions, or from completely different religious families!

You can also see something else important in the screenshot: Sins and virtues. Whether a trait is considered sinful or virtuous now depends on your religion and it's doctrines. Each religion has three traits it considers virtuous, and three traits it considers sinful. And I do mean "religion", as in the family above individual faiths. That means every Christian will consider the same six traits as vices/virtues, respectively. Plus there will be more, depending on a faith's doctrines. Take this tenet (Communion) and this doctrine (Sacred Lies) as an example:



These are obviously diametrically opposed. Communion is one of the Catholic tenets for those who are interested. So two faiths that may agree on six traits to be virtuous/sinful as prescribed by their parent religion, but may fundamentally disagree about other traits depending on their doctrines and tenets. And I believe if the parent religion views a trait as a sin, your faith can't have a doctrine or tenet making it a virtue and vice versa. There are tons of doctrines and tenets, you should read the dev diaries to find out more.

Let's show off the system a bit more with a closer look at Catholicism:



So right away this panel informs your that Catholicism is a Christian faith, it's level of fervor (more on that later), and shows you their three tenets, as well as it's 5 sins and 5 virtues.

I've already shown what Communion does, here's Armed Pilgrimages:



This allows the Pope to declare crusades, and maybe gives you the crusader trait when you reach the crusade target? Gives you the pilgrim trait when you complete a pilgrimage? Both? Neither? It will be exciting to learn more.

Tenets and doctrines also govern the rules of your faith. Again, let's take Catholicism as an example:



Nothing really unexpected here. For marriages, they must be monogamous (no concubines or second, third, fourth wives), the pope must approve your divorce, bastards are disinherited unless legitimized.

Same sex relationships and male adultery are shunned, meaning that getting caught cheating will have a man get serious opinion penalties. While female adultery is considered a crime, meaning a woman getting caught will not only suffer opinion penalties, but can be imprisoned for her "crime".

Only men can be priest, they are forbidden from marrying, and they join the clergy for life, becoming disinherited (that's what I believe "Clerical Appointment: Spiritual, for Life" to mean).

And you can directly see how different faiths can be. A faith absolutely can penalize men more for adultery than women, it can decriminalize homosexuality, can allow kinslaying without penalty, etc.

I've mentioned fervor earlier. It's a bit like Moral Authority from CK2, but quite different in other respects. It once again governs how difficult it is to convert characters or counties. Faiths with higher fervor have an easier time converting provinces or characters following a faith with lower fervor. A low fervor also makes the faith more vulnerable to heresies cropping up.

But in other respects, fervor is very different. High fervor allows holy warring, but each holy war actually reduces the fervor of a faith (because at least part of the motivation to declare such wars are secular concerns like a ruler wanting more land), while conversely, losing defensive holy wars will increase your faith's fervor because (as the DD puts it) "the embattled faithful dig in and fight for their way of life!" This is of course the other way around from CK2, where holy warring would increase your faith's moral authority if you were successful, and would decrease your victim's moral authority.

Holy sites are back again, this time with global bonuses to all members of your faith if they are held by the faithful:



Here for the Orthodox faith. It's mostly monthly piety increases, with Jerusalem of course giving the most, but also +1 learning for all Orthodox characters, as well as a direct vassal opinion (which is on by default unless Orthodox Christianity is in really dire straits). I gather that different faiths have different holy site bonuses, but can't point you to any evidence.

One important factor is that basically any religion can be "reformed" now. Or from another perspective, everybody can create their own heresy now. It's a bit similar to pagan reformation in CK2, but with three tenets and 18+ doctrines obviously much more granular than that process. To create a new faith, your character simply needs to accumulate enough piety. But the piety cost scales with the changes you want to make. As a Muslim, your new faith having polygamy won't be a problem, while a Christian "prophet" will have a much harder time proclaiming the virtues of having multiple wives, i.e. this "revelation" will cost much more piety to adopt. And again, certain doctrines will be limited to certain religious families or religions, like believing in reincarnation requires following a Dharmic religion. One nice thing is that you can actually decide on the outline of your new faith pretty early, and then just work to achieve the needed piety to proclaim it the following years or decades. And it's of course less expensive to create a new faith if your current faith suffers from low fervor, so the costs vary over time.

As for pagans, they all start with the special "unreformed" doctrine, giving substantial bonuses to tribals, but also locking you into that government form. So once again, to adopt feudalism as a tribal requires reforming your faith, or converting to a non-pagan one. Reforming works mostly the same as creating a new faith, with the additional requirement to control at least three holy sites of your faith.

So this was just a very rough overview of the religion mechanics. There's a ton more details that I didn't cover here, but you can already see that this is much deeper than it ever was in CK2.

Torrannor fucked around with this message at 07:21 on Aug 25, 2020

UrbicaMortis
Feb 16, 2012

Hmm, how shall I post today?



fuf posted:

I always pick someone really small, because surely the dream is to build up your dynasty from humble beginnings. Also it just feels less overwhelming to start with a small realm and only a few vassals.

I never got the appeal of the official recommended "interesting characters" that are already powerful kings.

A reasonably powerful duke was the start I most often went with. Let's you ease into things without too many vassals and you get to be a nightmare vassal for a while until you overthrow your liege or go independent.

Count can be fun for the feeling of dragging yourself all the way up but you have so few tools that it can involve a lot of waiting around for the right opportunity.

ilitarist
Apr 26, 2016

illiterate and militarist


This is what your preorders are financing

https://twitter.com/sukebandeka/sta...857393599053824

Goons Are Great
Nov 24, 2013

Please drink responsibly





I'm actually surprised and very happy to see all of these mechanics coming in already. I wouldn't ever expect a new game. Like CK3 to have an even comparable amount of content like full DLC CK2, but they really did well here which is a big part why I'm so super hyped for this game to come out and spend the next 2000 hours playing it.

PizzaProwler
Nov 4, 2009

Or you can see me at The Riviera. Tuesday nights.
Pillowfights with Dominican mothers.

ilitarist posted:

This is what your preorders are financing

Money well spent.

Vichan
Oct 1, 2014

I'LL PUNISH YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR CRIME


That seems like an extremely robust system.

Peachy Poo
Oct 9, 2012



Lipstick Apathy

Dang, that religious write-up is great, thanks.

Hearing that the egyptian faith is apparently in in addition to hellenic is super cool! I've got a thing for pagans, and taking things that lost horribly historically and making them succeed. I plan on a bunch of Africa games, so that'll definitely work it's way into one of them at some point.

Undecided on my first game. I loved Africa in ck2, so all the attention the region has gotten in 3 has me super excited for another game there. I also have a soft spot for baltic pagans - got fond memories of being a teenager playing Stainless Steel for Medieval total war 2, and playing lots of games as pagan Lithuania, so that's also high on the list. Part of me also thinks I should get a standard christian game out of the way to learn the ropes before diving into the crazier poo poo. The crazy heresy system makes that way more palatable this time around.

It's a good sign that there are so many regions that all sound so tempting this time around, even without any DLC.

Lawman 0
Aug 17, 2010





Grimey Drawer

I'm hyped

AtomikKrab
Jul 17, 2010

Keep on GOP rolling rolling rolling rolling.


Hyped as hell based on that religion screen.


It shows what amounts to a fundamental rework of and expansion on the reform mechanics from CKII and in a way that I think i'll like.


I don't preorder cause of SOTS2 though so... next weeeeeek.

Ham
Apr 30, 2009

You're BALD!


Introducing CK3 - War

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQ-2odgsKpo

Fader Movitz
Sep 25, 2012

Snus, snaps och saltlakrits

loving hyped. pre ordered the game even tho I got burnt badly by Imperator but after watching the streams this looks great.

yorkinshire
Apr 28, 2009

In space no one can hear your dope beats.


Fader Movitz posted:

loving hyped. pre ordered the game even tho I got burnt badly by Imperator but after watching the streams this looks great.

Same, was planning on waiting for reviews at least but I love CK too much.

fuf
Sep 12, 2004

haha


I'm still enjoying these but in some ways it's hard to know who the target audience is. The content is too introductory for experienced players, but they are so fast-paced and cursory that I don't think new players would find them very useful either.

I also kind of get the sense that Paradox wrote the scripts for all three streamers and they are just reading them out?

What we really need is some good streamers to just start doing normal videos.

Fat Samurai
Feb 16, 2011

To go quickly is foolish. To go slowly is prudent. Not to go; that is wisdom.



I hope the AI will be less willing to hellwar for years and wreck their entire empire just to prevent you for taking a measly county.

Ham
Apr 30, 2009

You're BALD!


fuf posted:

I'm still enjoying these but in some ways it's hard to know who the target audience is. The content is too introductory for experienced players, but they are so fast-paced and cursory that I don't think new players would find them very useful either.

I also kind of get the sense that Paradox wrote the scripts for all three streamers and they are just reading them out?

What we really need is some good streamers to just start doing normal videos.

I agree. I'm not sure if this helps new people, but maybe the narrative explanation helps sell the basic concepts?

I'm hopeful that streamers will be able to publish their videos starting tomorrow.

Sindai
Jan 24, 2007
i want to achieve immortality through not dying

Nap Ghost

I didn't realize fabricate claims is now done by your religious councilor. Combined with Catholics not having direct control over that appointment low-skill bishops are going to have an incredibly high mortality rate.

Dwesa
Jul 19, 2016

Might die, but eh.


Fat Samurai posted:

I hope the AI will be less willing to hellwar for years and wreck their entire empire just to prevent you for taking a measly county.
It sounds like something empires would do.

GHOST_BUTT
Nov 24, 2013



Fun Shoe


Honestly I'm just glad they aren't done by Havoc anymore, I can't put a finger on why but I was really irritated by his style.

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CommunityEdition
May 1, 2009


Sindai posted:

I didn't realize fabricate claims is now done by your religious councilor. Combined with Catholics not having direct control over that appointment low-skill bishops are going to have an incredibly high mortality rate.

Will no one rid me of this insufficiently turbulent priest?

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