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Snooze Cruise
Feb 16, 2013

look-
a post,


Frances Nurples posted:

and then things got real weird



introspective

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a pipe smoking dog
Jan 25, 2010

"haha, dogs can't smoke!"


Frances Nurples posted:

and then things got real weird



Are you trying to kill your spymaster? Because if you are you should really fire her and get a loyal spymaster.

Frances Nurples
May 10, 2008



I don't have the wiggle room to try and replicate it atm, but what happened is I was plotting to murder Duchess Berta and my spymaster died. I replaced him with the best powerful vassal, Duchess Berta.

Shellception
Oct 12, 2016

I just wasted all my charitable impulse for the day on a wet lump of fuzz.






She looks like she knows what she's doing. As long as she doesn't tell herself anything, she'll be fine and dead at the same time. Schrödinger's spymaster.

Real Cool Catfish
Jun 6, 2011


I had no clue how strong the bonuses for being a councillor were?!

As a result, started as the count of Provence in the Karling Thunderdome start.

The goal: Become a powerful duke but stay a vassal for those sweet council bonuses,, try and keep Italy a strong contender in Europe, ideally keep a strong liege on the throne, advance the cause of Catholicism.

How it’s going 100 years on:

Am powerful duke with council rights guaranteed.
Italy is probably the weakest Kingdom out of the Karling Kingdoms (sort of indirectly my fault), roughly the same size as it started at least.
Italy is has been in perpetual civil war for almost the entire century with just about every vassal in Italy (and several outside) having a claim on the throne (sort of directly my fault).
My heir (who I am now playing as) converted to Apostolic Christianity when I wasn’t looking and didn’t want to revert, so guess I’m Apostolic now.

1/4, oops.

Harold Fjord
Jan 3, 2004



Shellception posted:

She looks like she knows what she's doing. As long as she doesn't tell herself anything, she'll be fine and dead at the same time. Schrödinger's spymaster.

She assumed it was a codename

Tippis
Mar 21, 2008

It's yet another day in the wasteland.




That's 75% of the full CK experience then. Just need to get rid of that last one and everything will be as it should be.

SlothBear
Jan 25, 2009



Frances Nurples posted:

I don't have the wiggle room to try and replicate it atm, but what happened is I was plotting to murder Duchess Berta and my spymaster died. I replaced him with the best powerful vassal, Duchess Berta.

My favorite version of this was when I ended up fabricating evidence of an affair against myself, which was stressful. But it was a relief to find out later that it was fake.

KDdidit
Mar 2, 2007







Grimey Drawer

I had the Pope as my vassal with a dismantled Papacy but he still called crusades on me. He was the only person that ever joined and whenever the start date came, nothing happened. I was the Roman Empire and mended the schism though, so it would have been his 2500 troops against my god knows how many so it was probably for the best nothing kicked off.

Quorum
Sep 24, 2014

REMIND ME AGAIN HOW THE LITTLE HORSE-SHAPED ONES MOVE?


KDdidit posted:

I had the Pope as my vassal with a dismantled Papacy but he still called crusades on me. He was the only person that ever joined and whenever the start date came, nothing happened. I was the Roman Empire and mended the schism though, so it would have been his 2500 troops against my god knows how many so it was probably for the best nothing kicked off.

I picture the Pope showing up to work in the Imperial Office of Depreciated Religions, punching the clock, and sitting in his swivel cathedra playing Snake for eight hours. Except once every ten years, when he gets to sign the official Crusade form and march over to present it to the Emperor.

joepinetree
Apr 5, 2012


KDdidit posted:

I had the Pope as my vassal with a dismantled Papacy but he still called crusades on me. He was the only person that ever joined and whenever the start date came, nothing happened. I was the Roman Empire and mended the schism though, so it would have been his 2500 troops against my god knows how many so it was probably for the best nothing kicked off.

Had you switched to a different religion?
Because I have the exactly same scenario (reformed Roman empire, unified the schism, though I am not orthodox but my new version of christianity) and never got the dismantle the papacy option, and given the conversation above, thought it would not appear to other christian faiths.

Red_Fred
Oct 21, 2010




Fallen Rib

Actually that reminds me. Is it OK to have a vassal as spymaster? I know positive opinion is the number one thing but I’ve always avoided using vassals as there would be too much incentive to kill me I thought.

Also last night I managed to white peace a much superior West Francia and Byzantium trying to take a kingdom off me. Felt pretty great. I am emperor of Italy (which says Tsar for some reason?) but together they were much more powerful than me.

Orcs and Ostriches
Aug 26, 2010




The Great Twist

Is there a way to get better notification when the following happens?

An outside realm or revolt targets your liege in a war to claim land that you own.

My current liege is just in non-stop war mode, and I keep losing lands when people or revolts target lands that I'm holding. Managed to spot a few in the scrolling notifications that targeted may main dutchy, but I have other counties and stuff getting chewed up because I don't inspect every one of his wars.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMPIN' ON INTO THE POWER LINES




Exciting Lemon

Putting a powerful vassal as your spymaster is often the best choice as long as they don’t hate you. Unlike real players the AI isn’t quite so bloodthirsty, and you can generally trust the +/- to determine what they’re going to choose.

Traxis
Jul 2, 2006



Orcs and Ostriches posted:

Is there a way to get better notification when the following happens?

An outside realm or revolt targets your liege in a war to claim land that you own.

My current liege is just in non-stop war mode, and I keep losing lands when people or revolts target lands that I'm holding. Managed to spot a few in the scrolling notifications that targeted may main dutchy, but I have other counties and stuff getting chewed up because I don't inspect every one of his wars.

Closest thing I can think of is this mod but I'm not sure if it has enough granularity to accomplish exactly what you want. Also, it isn't achievement compatible.

dead gay comedy forums
Oct 21, 2011




KDdidit posted:

I had the Pope as my vassal

one more to the Big List of Crusader Kings Fun Stuff To Do

dead gay comedy forums
Oct 21, 2011




Red_Fred posted:

Actually that reminds me. Is it OK to have a vassal as spymaster?

if you get a powerful vassal with high intrigue who doesn't hate you it can be the beginning of a beautiful relationship

usually I find courtiers with very high intrigue though and having a 20+ spymaster as friend/lover/relative that has my back does help wonders when you become a high profile target

FreudianSlippers
Apr 12, 2010

Shooting and Fucking
are the same thing!



How hard is the Pope?

To fight that is.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

:geno: Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



Not particularly, but he does have fat stacks of cash that will be used to hire loads of mercs.

binge crotching
Apr 2, 2010



FreudianSlippers posted:

How hard is the Pope?

To fight that is.

Early game, 1.5-2k MaA should be enough, especially if you have 5+ counties with the relevant building. As the game goes on you'll need more, but even 1200s you don't need more than 3-4k MaA to repeatedly wipe his stacks. The first battle is the hardest, after that it's all just mercs, which are 90% levies.

KDdidit
Mar 2, 2007







Grimey Drawer

Yeah when you declare on The Pope don't be fooled by his initial troop numbers, he's going to hire tons of Mercs.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



The “control 3 holy sites” requirement for reformation is dumb

Omnicarus
Jan 16, 2006



zoux posted:

The “control 3 holy sites” requirement for reformation is dumb

I'd like it if you could move holy sites should be an option, have it cost a ton of piety and give a religious war casus belli to all other rulers of your religion to move it back.

Sure it isn't super historical but it's a game that allows for completely reforming the church to allow for Divine Marriage or any other number of tenets already so I'm not sure why I can't also convince my followers that Paderborn isn't worth poo poo to visit, come to Mann instead.

SlothBear
Jan 25, 2009



zoux posted:

The “control 3 holy sites” requirement for reformation is dumb

Yeah it's a huge restriction to playing an unreformed faith that I don't like.

pidan
Nov 6, 2012



SlothBear posted:

Yeah it's a huge restriction to playing an unreformed faith that I don't like.

Maybe there could be a compromise where you can steal a holy site from other religions when you convert the province, e.g. if you're a Norse owning Rome and Cordova and, idk, Athens, you might be able to work something out. That'd make it more difficult but still more flexible, and it certainly has historical precedent.

(I kind of hate that Norse paganism is called Asatru in-game, what's next, Wicca?)

SlothBear
Jan 25, 2009



https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/ck3-dev-diary-73-serving-on-her-majestys-court.1490806/

Latest Dev Diary. Mostly just showing off some of the new minor titles.

Hopefully all of these bonuses to resist hostile schemes will let them make hostile schemes a bit more of a threat. I'm not sure I've ever had a game where hiring bodyguards would have ever felt necessary, and the risk of them joining a scheme against you seems like you could just, you know, not hire them.

a pipe smoking dog
Jan 25, 2010

"haha, dogs can't smoke!"


zoux posted:

The “control 3 holy sites” requirement for reformation is dumb

The whole way holy sites work sucks because it really geographically limits religions. I mentioned I was doing a run coming out of the himalayas as the Qiang but as soon as I abandoned tibet it wasn't worth keeping my faith as I couldn't hold onto my holy sites.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



a pipe smoking dog posted:

The whole way holy sites work sucks because it really geographically limits religions. I mentioned I was doing a run coming out of the himalayas as the Qiang but as soon as I abandoned tibet it wasn't worth keeping my faith as I couldn't hold onto my holy sites.

Yeah I was going to dismantle the papacy as a varangian operating out of sicily using asatru, but once I realized I'd have to dispatch multiple seal teams to hold Paderborn Germany and Upplond Sweden I just converted to Ashari and did it that way. Al Hasteinn.

Also gently caress off Byzantines and your iron grip on the heel of Italy

Can I ask about how you want your vassals distributed? I'm the Danish emperor of Britannia, do I want holdings at every tier, do I want to give everything away and just hold the emperor + my cherry counties? What happens if I hold no kingdoms as an emperor?

zoux fucked around with this message at 14:45 on Sep 14, 2021

SlothBear
Jan 25, 2009



zoux posted:

Can I ask about how you want your vassals distributed? I'm the Danish emperor of Britannia, do I want holdings at every tier, do I want to give everything away and just hold the emperor + my cherry counties? What happens if I hold no kingdoms as an emperor?

It depends what your goal is. If you're looking to maximize income or guarantee a powerful successor then you want to have as much as possible held by yourself personally. If you want to minimize paperwork then holding just the empire and your personal land is totally viable once you've built up the men at arms and buildings to feel secure against any attempts at your throne.

What I like about having just the empire title is that under your high crown authority your kings can't go waging wars, but their dukes can and so your empire will slowly gobble up the weaker territory around itself without getting drawn into mega wars and internal conflicts, basically passively expanding into weaker lands or crumbling neighbors. Combine this with true ruler and you can just slowly spread across the globe while keeping your focus on any real threats. Making sure all your kings are of your line is also a great way to rush the dynasty of many crowns achievement and bonuses if you decide to just let them all go for the fun of it.

Quorum
Sep 24, 2014

REMIND ME AGAIN HOW THE LITTLE HORSE-SHAPED ONES MOVE?


It's kind of a tradeoff. On the one hand, count vassals are more efficient than duke vassals, which are more efficient than royal vassals. Each intermediate stage in the feudal chain means a new middleman who's taking a (large) cut of the tax revenues and levy obligations. On the other hand, you have a vassal limit to consider, and it's simpler dealing with fewer, larger vassals. On the third hand, once you get late enough in the game, the tax revenues and levy obligations don't really mean much compared to your hyperdeveloped demesne and your personal army of space marines.

You do generally want to hold your capital kingdom, because otherwise the guy you give it to will covet your rich capital counties as they're part of his de jure kingdom.

Zeron
Oct 23, 2010


I remember one North Africa game where I had trouble with islamic religions because the religious head was out of diplomatic range, so I tried to do a heresy even though I didn't really want to..but all the holy sites were still in the Middle East if I'm remembering right.

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

:geno: Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



zoux posted:

Can I ask about how you want your vassals distributed? I'm the Danish emperor of Britannia, do I want holdings at every tier, do I want to give everything away and just hold the emperor + my cherry counties? What happens if I hold no kingdoms as an emperor?

The things you really want are at least two duchy titles (for the duchy unique buildings) and as many counties as you're allowed to hold personally (for income).

You also want to minimize the number of intermediate vassals; you gain more from a count who is your vassal directly than you would from the same count were he the vassal of a duke who was your vassal. So duchy and kingdom titles should be left uncreated until you start hitting the vassal limit.

PittTheElder fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Sep 14, 2021

dead gay comedy forums
Oct 21, 2011




PittTheElder posted:

The things you really want are at least two duchy titles (for the duchy unique buildings) and as many counties as you're allowed to hold personally (for income).

You also want to minimize the number of intermediate vassals; you gain more from a count who is your vassal directly than you would from the same count were he the vassal of a duke who was your vassal. So duchy and kingdom titles should be left uncreated until you start hitting the vassal limit.

the duchy penalty feels rather dumb tbqh, but I guess it is a balance factor

that intermediate vassal tip is very handy, thanks for that

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



PittTheElder posted:

The things you really want are at least two duchy titles (for the duchy unique buildings) and as many counties as you're allowed to hold personally (for income).

You also want to minimize the number of intermediate vassals; you gain more from a count who is your vassal directly than you would from the same count were he the vassal of a duke who was your vassal. So duchy and kingdom titles should be left uncreated until you start hitting the vassal limit.

That outweighs the "not rightful liege" penalty?

PittTheElder
Feb 13, 2012

:geno: Yes, it's like a lava lamp.



By a large margin, yes. Like by default a feudal vassal gives you 10% of their taxes or something. The Not Rightful Liege penalty will cut that by 50% if you're 1 level higher ranked, or 25% higher if at least 2 levels higher ranked (king vs. count or emperor vs. duke).

Contrast that to a situation where you have a duke vassal in between you (as king). Count pays 10% of his income to the Duke, the Duke in turn forwards 10% of that on to you, for a 90% effective penalty. In actual fact the loss is greater because the AI sets/allows contacts to maximize levies rather than taxes, so that count is probably paying either 0 or 2.5% taxes.

scaterry
Sep 12, 2012


zoux posted:

That outweighs the "not rightful liege" penalty?

Not rightful liege is 50%, an indirect vassal is filtered through the direct vassal so it's like 10/25% for gold/levies. So yes its much worse, at least below vassal cap.

SlothBear posted:

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/ck3-dev-diary-73-serving-on-her-majestys-court.1490806/

Latest Dev Diary. Mostly just showing off some of the new minor titles.

Hopefully all of these bonuses to resist hostile schemes will let them make hostile schemes a bit more of a threat. I'm not sure I've ever had a game where hiring bodyguards would have ever felt necessary, and the risk of them joining a scheme against you seems like you could just, you know, not hire them.

That gardener job is super broken.

IMO, if the AI ever bothered to plot against you, you would get murdered non-stop. It's super easy to get a bunch of people to join your murder plots against random kings/emperors, even Genghis Khan.

zoux
Apr 28, 2006



Honestly as the emperor they should all have to pay me whatever I say, because I'm the boss.

Harold Fjord
Jan 3, 2004



zoux posted:

Honestly as the emperor they should all have to pay me whatever I say, because I'm the boss.

This is a great way to end up murdered, but we should be absolutely allowed to try.

SlothBear
Jan 25, 2009



scaterry posted:

IMO, if the AI ever bothered to plot against you, you would get murdered non-stop. It's super easy to get a bunch of people to join your murder plots against random kings/emperors, even Genghis Khan.

Yeah, I'm not sure why that choice was made or if some value is off making them think it's a bad idea or something. But they're constantly plotting to murder courtiers that I don't care about so obviously they can plot murders they just never do it against me, which is weird as heck.

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Magil Zeal
Nov 24, 2008



Rivals will absolutely plot to kill you, though it may require certain traits? Pretty sure vengeful rivals will almost always at least attempt a murder plot.

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