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Oct 23, 2020 18:52
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paragon1 posted:I've always assumed the Bane's represented lingering environmental devastation, yeah. Bunch of old ruins inhabited by intangible* forces that will kill anyone who comes near. Yeah, like radioactive waste in a land of impoverished uranium basically. The side effects of the reality altering power that kind of magic affords you.
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Oct 23, 2020 19:14
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paragon1 posted:I've always assumed the Bane's represented lingering environmental devastation, yeah. Bunch of old ruins inhabited by intangible* forces that will kill anyone who comes near. If we want to go with that interpretation, then let's also keep in mind that Kyros forbids any entrance into the Oldwalls, which is where most Bane come from, and if he allowed people in, they might be able to research the Bane more thoroughly and maybe even come up with lasting solutions to the problem. In essence, interference from the tyrannical government stands in the way of solving climate change, which is about as close to being directly "about Trump" as the game gets.
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Oct 23, 2020 20:22
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Swap with another artifact
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Oct 23, 2020 21:52
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I think we should go get another artifact. And then come back only to find that after we cleared out all the obstacles to the super-valuable thing and just left it there, of course someone else came along and grabbed it. We have no-one to blame but ourselves.
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Oct 23, 2020 22:21
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We already turned the place into a smoking ruin with the edict of fire, let's just finish the job. Take the scroll and run
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Oct 24, 2020 01:40
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Thinking over it, you could actually turn artifacts into an allegory for Tyranny's themes. Play up a fact that artifacts are tightly regulated by Kyros (or other smaller-scale analogues like the Sages) and are rewarded to people who "prove" themselves and artifacts become a means of showing how the system favors those that are loyal by granting them power over others. People smarter than you? Stronger? No matter, suck up to the authority enough and be *given* the power to beat your fellow man using the accomplishments of someone better than you! It would also feed into the narrative of how a tyrannical empire will bring itself to ruin, as anyone capable of making artifacts outside of the ruling elite is going to be killed, and they'll be too busy screwing over each other to put in all the effort of actually eclipsing those previous works. People claiming the mantle of previous generations to say it makes them great and beating others into submission with it, no great works of our own are created, society stagnates and collapses as even those works are eventually destroyed etc. etc. There's material there, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the artifacts weren't that well-integrated. Could also make it an allegory for inheritance and how daddy giving you money makes you powerful even when you're not, but that'd be a slightly different game.
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Oct 24, 2020 02:07
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I'm gonna vote Find Another Artifact primarily because I feel like burning down Lantry's cool library house is kinda a dick move and I like Lantry. Also, the Staff of Hours kicks rear end and we're keeping that.
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Oct 24, 2020 02:41
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Take the scroll and run I am assuming, in typical player fashion, you have already scoured the place for its treasures anyhow. And we did proclaim an edict to level the place. Might as well finish that job while we're here
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Oct 24, 2020 03:39
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Huh, so there actually was a Sage Dangling Participle. I thought Lantry was being glib.
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Oct 24, 2020 04:13
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paragon1 posted:I've always assumed the Bane's represented lingering environmental devastation, yeah. Bunch of old ruins inhabited by intangible* forces that will kill anyone who comes near. This is pretty much correct imo and I can point at why a much, much later date.
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Oct 24, 2020 05:06
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There is a lot more to go over about the Bane and the Oldwalls (and practically everything else.) There's much more to Tyranny than it seems at first glance, I wish it had more traction.
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Oct 24, 2020 05:18
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OneWingedDevil posted:Thinking over it, you could actually turn artifacts into an allegory for Tyranny's themes. Play up a fact that artifacts are tightly regulated by Kyros (or other smaller-scale analogues like the Sages) and are rewarded to people who "prove" themselves and artifacts become a means of showing how the system favors those that are loyal by granting them power over others. Thinking about it more - the artifacts are basically the myth weaving that all tyrants do to link themselves to the past, like Augustus being the son of the divine Julius, everything Mussolini ever did, or Stalin and Ivan the Terrible. More on this next update.
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Oct 24, 2020 06:07
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Thinking about it more - the artifacts are basically the myth weaving that all tyrants do to link themselves to the past, like Augustus being the son of the divine Julius, everything Mussolini ever did, or Stalin and Ivan the Terrible. More on this next update. Sometimes people do this with actual objects too, like the imperial seal in China during fighting that led to the Three Kingdoms era. It was a weird thing because literally nobody was actually going to recognize a claim to the empire as "legitimate", seal or no seal, but they all wanted it anyway. Several people were killed over possession of the thing. Even non-authoritarian governments put a lot of emphasis on physical symbols, like the mace in the UK where if it gets removed from the building, parliament isn't allowed to meet or pass any laws. Tyranny just kind of takes it one step further with the idea that say, if you were to claim the mace for yourself, you are the government now, because the power literally comes from the symbol rather than it just being a symbol of power.
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Oct 24, 2020 06:21
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Thinking about it more - the artifacts are basically the myth weaving that all tyrants do to link themselves to the past, like Augustus being the son of the divine Julius, everything Mussolini ever did, or Stalin and Ivan the Terrible. More on this next update. This is the opposite of the case. Artifacts, and more broadly the Archons, Edicts, the Favor/Wrath system, and Kyros herself are all an allegory for how tyranny primarily gains its power because the people legitimize it by believing the tyrant's bullshit, and the more they discuss the tyrant's worldview as though it's valid, be the commentary positive or negative, the more powerful the tyrant becomes, by dictating the terms of the debate. The only way to deal with fascists is to wholly dismiss their claims as the complete nonsense they are, and deny them the legitimacy of a platform. The moment you decide to debate Kyros, you're already agreeing that Kyros' power is real, and then Kyros wins. Umberto Eco and Karl Popper have both gone into this topic in great detail.
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Oct 24, 2020 06:33
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EclecticTastes posted:This is the opposite of the case. Artifacts, and more broadly the Archons, Edicts, the Favor/Wrath system, and Kyros herself are all an allegory for how tyranny primarily gains its power because the people legitimize it by believing the tyrant's bullshit, and the more they discuss the tyrant's worldview as though it's valid, be the commentary positive or negative, the more powerful the tyrant becomes, by dictating the terms of the debate. The only way to deal with fascists is to wholly dismiss their claims as the complete nonsense they are, and deny them the legitimacy of a platform. The moment you decide to debate Kyros, you're already agreeing that Kyros' power is real, and then Kyros wins. Umberto Eco and Karl Popper have both gone into this topic in great detail. That's literally why we're collecting the artifacts. We are going all in on Kyros' myth weaving and starting one of our own - the Staff of Hours, for example, links us with the power and knowledge of the Sages in the eyes of the people. We've seen enough of the game to state that so far we are picking up the tyrant's tools, not secretly writing a bill of rights and planning a big election.
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Oct 24, 2020 06:46
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:That's literally why we're collecting the artifacts. We are going all in on Kyros' myth weaving and starting one of our own - the Staff of Hours, for example, links us with the power and knowledge of the Sages in the eyes of the people. We've seen enough of the game to state that so far we are picking up the tyrant's tools, not secretly writing a bill of rights and planning a big election. It's important to always keep in mind where the actual locus of power is, though. Like, it's obvious that the Archons each started with some kind of special ability, either innate or acquired, but it was through their legitimization by those around them that they became demigods. The fact that in Tyranny, there's literal magic involved kinda muddies the narrative waters (like, Kyros could probably be beaten if everyone just stopped caring about her, but until then she's still got magical nukes so that's not so easy to do, though that in itself can symbolize how fascism, once entrenched, makes itself impossible to dismiss safely), but the big takeaway from basically all the far-right extremism of the past century and change is that allowing such people to even be part of the conversation plays into their hands, and the best way to disempower an aspiring tyrant is to denounce them as the crackpot they are and refuse to even give them the time of day. Let them rave on a street corner or call into 3AM Coast to Coast like every other random nutjob if they feel the need to share their odious beliefs. Also, let's not get confused, all political power works the same way, it's just that some are valid and others are not. Like, the Bill of Rights and elections only have as much power as people allow them to have. Look at what's happening right now, we're very likely about to learn the hard way what happens when the president of the United States decides an election just doesn't apply to him, and a certain percentage of congress is likely to back him up. And historically, the Constitution and its amendments have only applied in the ways that judges and lawmakers have decided they do, which can change dramatically over time. All of politics is a person or group saying that they're in charge and these are the rules and everyone else going "sure, okay" (not always willingly, mind you). To connect it back to Tyranny, Artifacts, Archons, even Edicts are, in and of themselves, morally neutral tools. They are no more "of the tyrant" than the swords and armor used by Kyros' soldiers. Liberators need the support of the people just as much as despots.
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Oct 24, 2020 07:08
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EclecticTastes posted:It's important to always keep in mind where the actual locus of power is, though. Like, it's obvious that the Archons each started with some kind of special ability, either innate or acquired, but it was through their legitimization by those around them that they became demigods. The fact that in Tyranny, there's literal magic involved kinda muddies the narrative waters (like, Kyros could probably be beaten if everyone just stopped caring about her, but until then she's still got magical nukes so that's not so easy to do, though that in itself can symbolize how fascism, once entrenched, makes itself impossible to dismiss safely), but the big takeaway from basically all the far-right extremism of the past century and change is that allowing such people to even be part of the conversation plays into their hands, and the best way to disempower an aspiring tyrant is to denounce them as the crackpot they are and refuse to even give them the time of day. Let them rave on a street corner or call into 3AM Coast to Coast like every other random nutjob if they feel the need to share their odious beliefs. The artifacts (at least the one Mark has us pick up) are for the most part references to the glorious past and history of the Tiers. The Staff of Hours and Silent Archive are tied directly to the legacy of the Sages, and the game literally tells us our power increases when we associate ourselves with the legacy of the Sages - a powerful and wise order that advised monarchs. Umberto Eco posted:he first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition. Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it typical of counter-revolutionary Catholic thought after the French revolution, but it was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction to classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of different religions (most of them indulgently accepted by the Roman Pantheon) started dreaming of a revelation received at the dawn of human history. This revelation, according to the traditionalist mystique, had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of forgotten languages – in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, in the scrolls of the little known religions of Asia. We are not making a new myth of a better place like the Declaration of Independence or the French Revolution, we are explicitly tapping into the existing mythology of the Tiers to bolster our own power, much like Mussolini kept rambling about the Romans. We are jury-rigging a syncretic myth of Cleopatra, heir to the Sages/past Archons/fallen nations (I'm trying not to spoil the artifacts here) as a really cool person who deserves your support as the real heir of the unified Tiers, a totally real thing that existed despite the Tiers collapsing (in reality) because they were too busy infighting to resist Kyros. Note that our powerbase is the Spires, which Lantry tells us predate all of known history, not people coming up to us and telling us that we have their support.
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Oct 24, 2020 08:20
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These posts make me want see "Tyranny developed by Bethesda" (Bioware, Blizzard), and how badly would the writing turn out 
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Oct 24, 2020 09:31
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Quickly, before voting closes: Take it and run. gently caress the old burning building Also, this somewhat reminds me of Sorel's idea of the revolutionary myth somehow.
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Oct 24, 2020 09:32
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:The artifacts (at least the one Mark has us pick up) are for the most part references to the glorious past and history of the Tiers. The Staff of Hours and Silent Archive are tied directly to the legacy of the Sages, and the game literally tells us our power increases when we associate ourselves with the legacy of the Sages - a powerful and wise order that advised monarchs. Both of these notions can be true. Mussolini didn't get installed because the Romans were just so awesome that invoking their name meant he got to run Italy. Invoking the past is just one way to drum up popular support. If all you needed was the connection to the past, Artifacts would enter your inventory at full power. The key is associating them with yourself in the minds of the people. Each type of Big Magic in Tyranny correlates to a different way politicians appeal to the public to be given power (note how none of them correspond to "actually being a competent leader", perhaps partly because that is one of the least effective ways to get the people's support, historically speaking): -Artifacts: "You like (thing from past), and I am very much aligned with (thing from past). You should put me in charge so that we can be more like (thing from past)." Ex: Literally any politician to wax nostalgic about "the good ol' days". -Archons: "I have done (list of accomplishments, rarely relevant to governance, and often misrepresented based on public perception rather than objective fact). You should put me in charge based on that track record." Ex: Any politician that has ever claimed that business success can or should equate to success in running a country; politicians running on having been a movie star, pro wrestler, or D-tier reality show host. -Edicts: "I have the ability to have you all killed. You should put me in charge because you all like being alive." Ex: Every military coup, obviously, but to get more subtle, perhaps making an implied threat that a vital economic stimulus package won't be passed in the middle of a pandemic that's seen massive job loss, unless you're reelected. Favor/Wrath (or Loyalty/Fear) can be interpreted as, essentially, endorsements (or counter-endorsements, which can be just as much help as hindrance, depending on how the public feels about a given person/group). The Spires, I would say, actually serve as a narrative shortcut for the "accomplishments" related to becoming an Archon (since a lifetime of being a psychotic torturer or inspiring general is a bit outside the scope of the game), and of course are also serving gameplay purposes as a home base/fast travel system. By the way, this isn't related to the above points, but it occurred to me, there's no hard evidence that Kyros does anything as a leader beyond manipulate people to maintain her power, given that all the things supposedly overseen by Kyros directly, like trade regulations, conveniently happen to include Tunon as well (meaning Tunon likely does all the work). Which, on the one hand, savvy delegation can be a mark of good leadership, but, it's also possible there's a real Wizard of Oz situation going on, where Kyros has no idea how to actually rule, and is just constantly doing his best to look like an infallible Overlord by being a drat good conman.
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Oct 24, 2020 10:40
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Take the scroll and run if we run off to grab another artifact then somebody else (Nerat  ) will just show up and grab it. plus it's not good storytelling to just run off for another macguffin 
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Oct 24, 2020 21:56
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Xarn posted:These posts make me want see "Tyranny developed by Bethesda" (Bioware, Blizzard), and how badly would the writing turn out
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Oct 24, 2020 23:53
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Grab the scroll Do we end the edict of fire no matter which way we retrieve the scroll? We seem to have decided to not ask Mark about that part of the task.
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Oct 25, 2020 01:17
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Rawkking posted:Do we end the edict of fire no matter which way we retrieve the scroll? We seem to have decided to not ask Mark about that part of the task. Correct. The Edict ends as soon as the scroll leaves.
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Oct 25, 2020 01:57
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Yeah it's a very rules lawyer moment (spoiler: the game has a lot of those) because of the specific wording of the edict is "as long as forbidden knowledge lies within the heart of the Vellum Citadel".
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Oct 25, 2020 02:06
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The Cheshire Cat posted:Yeah it's a very rules lawyer moment (spoiler: the game has a lot of those) Well yeah, It trains you from the very beginning that this world doesn't actually care about any kind of Spirit of the law. The whole Empire lets you get away with anything so long as you can point at a law that says you can do that. That's one of its biggest flaws: that the system is too rigid. To the point where you can basically get away with anything so long as you know what you're doing.
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Oct 25, 2020 02:44
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Kyros' laws and edicts encourage this. If you have anyone interpreting any of the laws as 'the spirit of the law' the entire system falls apart. So you have to go full rules lawyer to get anything done, benevolent or not.
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Oct 25, 2020 02:57
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Stroth posted:Well yeah, It trains you from the very beginning that this world doesn't actually care about any kind of Spirit of the law. The whole Empire lets you get away with anything so long as you can point at a law that says you can do that. That's one of its biggest flaws: that the system is too rigid. To the point where you can basically get away with anything so long as you know what you're doing. The other flaws are a lack of a presumption of innocence, and the notion that anything not expressly covered by the law is left up to whoever is adjudicating. This allows for all kinds of corruption, prejudice, etc. to undermine any notion of true justice (the latter part is precisely why the Code of Hammurabi was so long, covering seemingly every possible crime they could think of). Not even Tunon himself is immune to this.
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Oct 25, 2020 03:01
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Voting closed! Cleo is going to wander off into the wilderness and find another artifact. I actually like the one we can get from Bleden Mark, so we will probably not be yeeting that one.
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Oct 25, 2020 04:58
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TheGreatEvilKing posted:Voting closed! Cleo is going to wander off into the wilderness and find another artifact. Given how short the list of available artifacts is at this point in the game, I'm pretty sure I already know which one we're gonna use, because it's ultimately kind of not-great given the game's mechanics, though I'm looking forward to the detour it will require, since it's literally the only optional detour (not counting the DLC) possible in what is otherwise a pretty linear game (which really shows how much Tyranny was inspired by Planescape: Torment, in much the same way Pillars of Eternity was inspired by Baldur's Gate).
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Oct 25, 2020 05:19
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Maybe I missed it, but did you actually mention the Power gauge that's on Cleo's portrait now anywhere? I don't think the game has explained anything about it yet, but it's been there for a couple updates at this point.
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Oct 25, 2020 07:06
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TheOneAndOnlyT posted:Maybe I missed it, but did you actually mention the Power gauge that's on Cleo's portrait now anywhere? I don't think the game has explained anything about it yet, but it's been there for a couple updates at this point. I've mentioned our power is going up but not what that actually means.
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Oct 25, 2020 07:24
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Cleopatra Jones and the Hunt For Artifacts Last time on Tyranny, we cleared out the Burning Library and were stuck trying to figure out the fate of the Silent Archive. The goonmind decided to just leave it for now, go find a new artifact, and swap that for the Archive.   This convenient entrance will take us back to the Archive when we get our hands on an artifact.  Somehow this jerk survived our initial assault on the Censor. We end his life.  These guys were hiding out in a corner and we also butcher them. Unfortunately they don't drop anything good.  There was some discussion in the thread about the map, so I wanted to show off the entire section that is just labeled with Kyros' insignia.  This is the only detour we can make, unfortunately.  Oh boy!   Meet Welby. She might be important later.  : She salutes you. My name is Welby, First-Axe for the Bronze Brotherhood. Though, I'm not sure that title matters anymore.: She pauses to gather her thoughts, then opens her mouth to continue. Instead, she exhales slowly and shakes her head. Never mind. You needn't be burdened with my problems.: While I appreciate you coming to me before speaking to Raetommon, you will need to be careful - he has, of late, been acting out of sorts and any perceived slight can become a problem for the one who offends him. Choose your words with him carefully.  : How could talking to you offend Raetommon? : Tell me about the Bronze Brotherhood.: Welby laughs a little. We're mercenaries - plain and simple. I'm not going to pretend like it's anything more. While it's true we have, in recent years, been a little more stationary than your typical crew, it doesn't change the fact that our services can be purchased if the price is right.Wait, mercenaries for hire? We are desperately in need of troops right now. At the very least we could pay them to stand around the Spire and prevent Nerat from trying to steal poo poo. : The Voices made an offer to assure our cooperation and we took it. If I had known Kyros would try ot have us thrown out of our home afterward... Well, I probably would have still taken the rings, but I would have been a little more prepared for the inevitable conflict.: Raetommon will try to sell you on our 'long and noble traditions', like we're some kind of altruistic saints who can do no wrong, but that story is as old and smelly as Gramma Beastman's tail hairs. : What does it mean to be First-Axe?: She sighs. I wish I knew, Fatebinder. The First-Axe protects and consults with the First-Brother. I am supposed to be Raetommon's advisor, confidant, and guard.: Lately his behavior has become erratic. He's acting paranoid, manic, and distrustful. What Welby is not mentioning here is that the Bronze Brotherhood worship the Bane. You can tell this if you go to their relationship meter. : What do you think has happened to Raetommon? : How would you run the Brotherhood?  : True. Acting like a child when you don't get what you want is not the behavior of a leader.Cleopatra is having flashbacks to a certain war tent.  We end the conversation here.  TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
So, what have we learned? The Bronze Brotherhood is tearing itself apart staring into the abyss of Kyros. We'll be seeing more of them.  Do either of you have permits?  : He notices you standing nearby and turns to speak.: Fatebinder, surely you, of all people, can help me. My name is Aster, and I must get to Lethian's Crossing. I have goods to deliver! Tell this... man I will not be paying a tool - to him, or anyone - and he is to let me through! He folds his arms over his chest and nods with a pronounced finality.You should be getting flashbacks to the Disfavored shaking down Sterling Hagnon outside their camp. The Bronze Brotherhood under Raetommon is the classic example of a resistance movement that has become as bad as the tyrant they hate.   : If this 'gentleman' would like passage through our land, a simple donation is required.: He holds out his hand. These funds help our cause and keep Ironhaul a safe place for all travelers! Clearly you both can see the value in that?: Aster speaks, his arms swinging about again, emphasizing his words. And who, exactly, is keeping it safe? You, standing there, with your weapons at the ready against me? His arms drop and he turns to you again : [Pay 50 ring toll for Aster] Here is payment for the merchant to pass unharmed.We can't actually order the mercs to let the merchant through. Aster will turn back.  : Will makes an exaggerated flourish and moves out of Aster's way. But of course!: He raises an enormous hammer and stops Aster, pressing it against his chest. Though, merchant... do be sure to have some rings of your own for your trip back. I doubt your friend here will be around to pay your way through these lands twice. He smiles, moves his hammer, and gestures for Aster to continue. : While I appreciate your help dealing with that merchant, I'm afraid I can't let you pass until you have spoken with our leader, Raetommon. Personally, I thought he was crazy saying you'd be visiting Lethean's Crossing. Looks like I owe him a few rings.: He shakes the pouch around his neck, making the rings inside jingle melodically. Not that there's a shortages of those out here!: What can this humble servant of the Brotherhood do for you, Fatebinder? And don't ask me to let you through, because that isn't happening. : Thanks, but I can handle this myself. This is the kind of poo poo Tunon executes people for trying to pull on his Fatebinders, but here we are. Let's just talk to Raetommon and get this over with. : Where can I find Raetommon? : [Leave] I will speak with Raetommon.: He laughs. I'll be counting the seconds until you return.   : But I'm sure you already know that. I couldn't help but see you over here, talking to Will and that traveling merchant. Only here for a moment and already sticking your nose where it doesn't belong, aren't you?: I don't appreciate others invading my territory, Fatebinder. You guys don't think you can actually take Cleo in a fight, do you?  : Watch yourself while you are a guest in my land. If you have come to stir up more trouble, we are well equipped and will not back down in the defense of what is rightfully ours! He sweeps his arm in front of him, gesturing to the surrounding countryside.: Welby and I might not always agree, but that is one point we see eye-to-eye on. If you step out of line, we will both correct you.: His eyes narrow and he leans toward you.. You are not welcome here. : Tell me about the Bronze Brotherhood. : Sounds like you're up-standing citizens. : Tell me about Welby.: He shoots a look to the north. I had such high hopes for her as my First-Axe. The continued success of the Brotherhood should be the single most important goal for anyone who is a member. She seems to have forgotten her place. She is not the head of this band - I am! : I need to get to Lethian's Crossing.: Raetommon considers your request for a moment. If I let you through, you must promise to behave. I have enough problems dealing with everyone else, I don't need to[sic] the hassle of keeping an eye on you, too: So watch yourself. This is my city and I have eyes everywhere. If you intend to stir up trouble, go somewhere else. I don't need it here. I suppose this is one way to save on payroll expenses.  : Who put a contract on me? : Thanks for the warning. : [Leave] We will speak again soon.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
So Raetommon is kind of nuts. We avoided a fight here, but rest assured, the Brotherhood is going to find some annoying way to mess us up. Onwards to the Crossing!  Excuse me?  Unfortunately to carry out the will of the goonmind, we do need to come here. : [Athletics 43] (Intimidate/Attack) I suggest you go - now - before this gets ugly.Raetommon is completely full of poo poo. If the guards wanted us for a bounty offered by Nerat or somebody they would not offer us the option to leave - they'd attack on sight. I'm not sure what the hell he's playing at.   We now have a new quest - eliminate the entirety of the Brotherhood's garrison here.  The guards are obliging enough to wait outside aggro range while we drop every buff we have.   The Bronze Brotherhood really don't have a lot of tricks like the Vendrien Guard's endless teleporting assholes.  They're quite flammable.  I take the opportunity to show off one of Eb's combo skills.  It's very silly.  We can use Athletics on the bridge to force it down and get to the last Brotherhood soldiers.  This won't end well for them.  We have enough nasty magic that we can just keep these guys from acting ever and blow them all up.   We have now single-handedly removed the Bronze Brotherhood presence from Lethian's Crossing. A pity, we really could have used some mercenaries.  We get this message and the screen fades to black. Now we can run around and hit up all the merchants and whatnot.  Lantry continues his mad quest to get all of the Lore.  The merchants don't have any artifacts. You can get the Fire, Frost, and Lightning sigils if you missed them, and we pick up a few sigils from Harichand Bronze (the sigil of bleeding and the sigil of rooting, which let you upgrade certain spells to inflict bleed or root respectively) but nothing major. We also dump all our excess inventory because we are going to need a lot of cash very soon.  Hello, Sirin. What are you doing here?  Kid, you can't go around mind controlling randos.  : Well, look who's here - and what brings you to Lethian's Crossing? I can't imagine it's the scenery or the quaint locals. Have you come to spoil my fun? She frowns a little, momentarily lost in thought.: Tunon probably insisted you find me, didn't he? Because we can't let Sirin have any fun, can we? Let's control her. Let's tell her what she can and can't do. Let's use her to destroy nations! As she speaks, the crowd around her appears agitated and the air in the room grows heavy and warm. Suddenly, she smiles. : You shouldn't be doing this, Sirin. These people don't truly love you. You're manipulating them. Kids these days. : Besides, who doesn't love having a legion of adoring lackeys? She smiles and the tightness releases your mind. The heads turn again to face Sirin, adoration shining in their eyes. : You can keep your followers for all I care. Just don't let it get out of hand.  : [Add Sirin to your party] Okay, Sirin, you may join me. You need someone watching you.This is your obligatory reminder that Sirin is fifteen. : Well, then let's go. If you're going to teach me the wonders of the world, it's not going to happen here...TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 Let's boot Eb for now. Don't worry, I plan to have a vote for the party in the next segment. Anyway, Sirin. We've talked a bit about her, in that she's kind of representative of how Kyros tramples art. Her complaints about her constantly being asked to release her followers are somewhat symbolic of Kyros and Nerat systematically (but not always successfully) removing any emotional sentiment from her performances to avoid people rising up.  Sirin is kind of like a D&D bard or a chanter from Pillars of Eternity. If you leave her alone she'll passively sing the song of your choice which will grant buffs to the part and debuffs to your enemies. If she gets through enough stanzas you can have her use an active ability that will do things like confuse or stun people.  Of course, Sirin being rather resentful of Kyros and the rest of those assholes, she knows a few songs that the Kyrosian establishment does not approve of. One of the other ones we can have her sing is literally the Vendrien Guard marching song.  The other thing her talent tree slightly hints at is that Sirin is mage #4. She can in fact do magic while handing out tons of passive bonuses. Her lore is low right now but as soon as we can get her to a lore trainer we can fix that. It won't be for a while, but we can still load her up with stuns and whatnot. poo poo, Barik is a better mage right now, and he's...not exactly the smartest. Anyway, the other thing you should be taking away from Sirin? Even the Archons have it bad under Kyros. This is going to be more evident when we discuss her tragic life, but she took the flimsiest excuse to ditch Nerat and is literally acting out for attention right now. We've seen three of these master-servant Archon relationships - Ashe and Cairn, Nerat and Sirin, and Tunon and Bleden Mark - and every time the servant absolutely hates their service and tries to get out of it. Cairn rebelled and forced Kyros to deploy an Edict to put him down, Bleden Mark is working with us to break the laws, and Sirin is desperately trying to get away from Nerat because he's a crazy monster man. Being an Archon just gives you shiny gold chains instead of lead ones.  This is Eldian. He can give us a history lesson. He's not happy we took out the Brotherhood, but he's not exactly displeased we're taking Sirin away.  He tells us the Forge-bound are here because there's iron in the hills and the town needs to be vigilant against the Bane but it's mostly fine if no one goes in the Oldwalls.  This is one of two reasons why we're here. We want to get Lohara to "examine" Barik's armor in a totally legal way, and we want to claim the Spire that's in this town.  : Right. : Noted. She clears her throat and wipes her blackened hands on the canvas of her smock.: I am Lohara, Master of Tempering and Forgemaster of Lethian's Crossing. My tasks exceed the hours left in the day, but there is no harm in pausing my work if it means speaking with the Fatebinder. : Why did you want to know if I kill with my right hand or left hand? : Can you make something for me?Come on, free artifact, come on...  Sigh. We tried.  : [Subterfuge 40] I did not realize the request was so thoughtless, my apologies. : Forget I asked. : I'd like to talk to you about Barik. : I hoped you would examine Barik. The mage options let us try to invoke Magician's Folly. : [Diplomat] I have the utmost respect for the work of your guild and would do nothing to jeopardize its standing with the Overlord. Yet you must admit Barik's armor a magical marvel[sic]. Surely an examination wouldn't run afoul of the law.: You forge words like a courtier, and I have little doubt that you would twist any argument to your advantage were we pressed to answer for a crime...: Allow me to state this in no uncertain terms, Fatebinder. The Forge-bound swore our allegiance to Tunon the Adjudicator, Archon of Justice. We do not easily forget that oath, nor do we rush to circumvent it. Our fastidiousness is not limited to our craft. You be quiet Barik. Remember when I said Barik's personal quest was about how Kyros and Graven Ashe hosed him over personally? Here we go! : [Subterfuge 40] I don't supposed that you know any skilled smiths who lack your ironclad sense of loyalty... : You ask me to be an accomplice to your crime?  : I appreciate it, Lohara. TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
That part is done. It's time to straight up violate Kyros' laws and just..enter the oldwalls.  We're already going after the forbidden knowledge of the Silent Archive, what's an Oldwalls violation?  Welcome to the Oldwalls! We don't have much to do here for the time being, but we just kind of go through them and go grab our Spire.  For Oldwalls connected to Spires like this one, you want to track down these engravings. They're either needed for something we'll see in a few seconds, or they're sweet, sweet sigils which we can use to create even more overpowered spells.  Thanks Lantry.  The rest of the dungeon is sadly blocked off, but we can go into this room.   : What do you know of the Spires? : What do you recommend? We press on. There's an engraving on the wall that I take a rubbing of.  Sirin and Barik shout out what you have to do - make the lights on the floor match the pattern on the rubbing.  Having done this, we can teleport to the top of the Spire.  This gets us an animation of the Spire powering up.   : Your awareness stretches beyond the limits of this Spire, pulling in many directions at once. The light you saw arcing through the sky remidns you of the tether you feel to the top of Vendrien's Well. This too is a point of connection, and you are an inextricable part of it - bound as surely as the Spires are to each other.: The Sunset Spire in Lethean's Crossing feels burdened by its age, as if a central linchpin somewhere in its core has weathered the centuries of oppressive weight, and longs to topple.: The surge of energy that courses through you, forming a link with Vendrien's Well, strengthens the very stones beneath your feet. The structural weakness you detected vanishes, replaced by confidence that could keep this tower standing for millennia.Translation: Thanks to our existing powerbase, we can support this power as well.  That's our Lantry!  : From here, even the Oldwalls seem paltry. This sovereign view was not intended for the likes of us.: Barik shakes his head slowlyGuys it's an allegory for how power elevates. : Who knew that all of this was up here while I sat below, wasting my time trying to gather a group of followers from the refugees in Lethean's Crossing. The untapped power in this Spire is astounding! I must find out how to get some. : [Listen closer.]: The whispers themselves seem to travel down the tether between you and your Spires, conducting heat that feels at times unbearable. They speak of your actions, your choices - everything that led you to this place. Your name is known, your banner recognized, your deeds reported across the Tiers and the Northern Empire alike. : [Lore 47] Unlocking this Spire seems to have opened some deeper connection.We have more power now. Granted, we also have the services of the Archon of Song, but we're still not strong enough to go up against Ashe or Nerat.   When you're powerful a few words can reshape a situation. : I feel it too. The air is...thick up here, isn't it? Exactly the opposite of what you'd expect. The magic up here is almost a physical presence!TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
 Normally I'd go for the Infirmary to get the master lore trainer...but she was a Sage, and we kinda killed her when we blew up the Library without warning. Oops! We also need an artifact, and here's how we're going to get one.  The Forge actually lets us craft artifacts! First, however, we have a missive.  Rhogalus posted:My dear Cleopatra Jones, We will of course explain. Our reply posted:Dear Rhogalus, Now we can build our forge!  Sweet!  This guy lets us forge stuff!  Alright, we've got three artifacts. The Alchemists Gloves let us do an AoE healing blast, the Commander's Plate lets us swap people around in combat and buffs a bunch of leadership effects we are frankly never going to use, and the Nightwalkers Boots let us teleport behind people. We are going to forge the Plate for the purpose of yeeting it into the Sages' spell. Unfortunately I need a lot more cash than I currently have, so it's time to run around and steal everything not nailed down. In the meantime, Lantry wants to chat.   : I've studied at Tunon's feet, proclaimed Edicts, broken them too. I'm sure I've been exposed to all sorts of arcane powers. : I always want to know what you're thinking. : [Subterfuge 47] The Edict of Execution was pushing for someone to claim Ascension Hall... can't be coincidence. : Do you think the Spires are connected to Kyros in some fashion? : If you're asking if Kyros built them or controls them... not, they predate all mention of Kyros and I'm sure if Kyros COULD control the other Spires, that fact would be shamelessly flaunted. : Are there stories of 'awakened' Spires elsewhere in Terratus? : Let's get going.TheGreatEvilKing summary posted:
Now, the clear implication is that Kyros wanted us to take the Spire so we could do something, and that ties in with how a lot of people interpret the game. It's not my interpretation, but we'll get to that in time. Do note that the scenario where the Spire stays unclaimed is the complete victory for Kyros. At best, elevating a random person to having the Spire gives Ashe and Nerat a new target to go after instead of being pissed enough at Kyros to get their forces together and march on the Northern Empire. Now, this was never happening anyway, but Kyros seems to subscribe to the Saddam Hussein school of paranoia. I put the forge order in offscreen and now we have to kill a bunch of time before the Plate is ready.  To the illegal forge! Next Time: Barik is screwed.
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Oct 26, 2020 01:08
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It's worth noting that the game's crafting system was designed by colossal narcs, and it requires you to gain some experience before the crafting process will begin (this applies to all generation of supplies and such). It doesn't require much, but it means you can't just nap at the Spire until you've crafted everything (assuming you have the supplies for it). Also, the Nightwalker's Boots, while on the list of forge items, cannot be made unless you're working with the Scarlet Chorus (or use console commands), as it requires a unique item that can only be obtained during a sidequest only available on that route. Also, I would not say that Kyros so much planned for the Fatebinder to claim the Mountain Spire so much as that Kyros accounted for the possibility. Most successful leaders, good or evil, get that way by planning for every foreseeable contingency, and ensuring they have a way to come out ahead no matter which outcome occurs. As an aside, I would not characterize the Bronze Brotherhood as a "resistance group". They're a bunch of mercenaries who turned on their employer because they feel slighted. Of the various groups opposing Kyrosian occupation, they are far and away the shittiest, and the only real difference between them and the Disfavored/Scarlet Chorus is that they're much, much, much weaker.
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Oct 26, 2020 01:43
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Did we just permanently lose the chance to do quest type things with the bronze brotherhood?
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Oct 26, 2020 02:19
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queserasera posted:Did we just permanently lose the chance to do quest type things with the bronze brotherhood? No, they're scripted to be antagonists in all but one half of one route. So, I guess the answer is "yes", with the caveat that the point where we cut off the ability to do a quest with them was back in Act 1.
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Oct 26, 2020 02:22
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EclecticTastes posted:As an aside, I would not characterize the Bronze Brotherhood as a "resistance group". They're a bunch of mercenaries who turned on their employer because they feel slighted. Of the various groups opposing Kyrosian occupation, they are far and away the shittiest, and the only real difference between them and the Disfavored/Scarlet Chorus is that they're much, much, much weaker. Yeah the Bronze Brotherhood is very much the local "resistance fighters" who are actually the old petty tyrants and are just pissed that a bigger and stronger tyrant came over and took their poo poo away. Hell, if you go to Lethian's Crossing in the Conquest and leave the Disfavored in charge the locals will actually thank you for it on the grounds that "Well, yeah, the curfews and everything kinda suck, but it's much better than when the Brotherhood was trying to run poo poo".
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Oct 26, 2020 02:27
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It's weird how the Bronze Brotherhood are so antagonistic though, isn't it? Like aren't we supposed to literally be a walking embodiment of Tunon's Law and thus a pretty Big loving Deal? But these random guys that harass merchants for 'tolls' want to go toe to toe with us? Even if they won wouldn't some other agent of Tunon come along eventually and murder them for murdering us?
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Oct 26, 2020 03:38
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Hmm. I somewhat agree on the spire going unclaimed a victory for Kyros, on the condition that it went unclaimed because the edict fell and took the lives of Ashe and Nerat. Otherwise the edict may as well not have been put into place, letting the two armies turn on each other without the threat of imminent death pushing them to blows. (I'm of the mind that the last thing Kyros wants is the tiers under their overlording thumb, y'see.) With one dead, the other could deal with the decapitated army and finish claiming the tiers, but with both dead? The armies weren't exactly loyal to Kyros in the first place and those individuals that decide to remain loyal, whatever that means for them, will be readily outnumbered. Let the Tiers sit and stew for a while in this condition, then send in another bundle of sacrificial Archons for the next campaign. It's a tidy way of keeping an empire fueled by conquering and doling out land, really. Unstable and teetering on the precipice of going horribly wrong, but tidy.
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Oct 26, 2020 03:39
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