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Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008





Sentinel Red posted:

I'd say actual fans of the character would rather not see him at all than a lovely version that doesn't do him a molecule of justice.

We're getting into who counts as a real fan here, so I'm gonna dip out of this one.

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glitchwraith
Dec 29, 2008

I've got average self-esteem and a hoodie.


I feel like Cassandra Cain in Birds of Prey is a good counter example.

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

Only Accused Of STATUTORY Rape

She should have been called Stephanie Brown

glitchwraith
Dec 29, 2008

I've got average self-esteem and a hoodie.


John Wick of Dogs posted:

She should have been called Stephanie Brown

Would have fit better, but just making her an original character would have been better than tying her to any of the Bat Girls. Then it's less weird when she more or less becomes Harley's sidekick.

Fangz
Jul 5, 2007

Oh I see! This must be the Bad Opinion Zone!


I don't really know the character, but I don't really see any reason why they can't retcon in her comics backstory or some version of it subsequently. "She gets kidnapped and brainwashed to be an assassin" is a pretty easy route to go if they wanted it. Or "her real, evil parents programmed her with fighting skills as a sleeper agent (since she's a foster kid in the movie)", etc etc.

You can easily set up an eventual route where she gets with Batman, which creates interesting dynamics between Harley and the Bat Family.

Fangz fucked around with this message at 19:10 on Apr 13, 2021

Sentinel Red
Nov 13, 2007
Style > Content.

Vince MechMahon posted:

We're getting into who counts as a real fan here, so I'm gonna dip out of this one.

Probably for the best. Maybe you're right though and, say, Renee Montoya fans would have loved it if the female detective in The Dark Knight who sells out to the mob and causes the assistant DA to be killed actually *was* Renee as opposed to Major Crimes Cop #2. Sure, she's a cowardly scumbag in it but at least she's in the film for a couple of scenes, right?

glitchwraith
Dec 29, 2008

I've got average self-esteem and a hoodie.


Fangz posted:

I don't really know the character, but I don't really see any reason why they can't retcon in her comics backstory or some version of it subsequently. "She gets kidnapped and brainwashed to be an assassin" is a pretty easy route to go if they wanted it. Or "her real, evil parents programmed her with fighting skills as a sleeper agent (since she's a foster kid in the movie)", etc etc.

You can easily set up an eventual route where she gets with Batman, which creates interesting dynamics between Harley and the Bat Family.

She didn't just growing up as an assassin, but as one so hyper focused on fighting that they neglected to teach her any other socialization, to the extent that she was mute for a long time. Overcoming that brainwashing and learning to interact with people like a human instead of a killing machine is her major story arc. Sure, you could come up with a way for her to become an assassin in the movie universe, but having her start off as the chatty pick pocket who gets a surrogate mother in Harley is already a huge departure.

Granted I don't really expect them to figure out what they are doing with Batman in that continuity any time soon, so it likely doesn't matter anyway. To my original point, she was a fine character in Birds of Prey that was made awkward by giving her a familiar comics name that had nothing to do with her.

Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008





Sentinel Red posted:

Probably for the best. Maybe you're right though and, say, Renee Montoya fans would have loved it if the female detective in The Dark Knight who sells out to the mob and causes the assistant DA to be killed actually *was* Renee as opposed to Major Crimes Cop #2. Sure, she's a cowardly scumbag in it but at least she's in the film for a couple of scenes, right?

If other than the corruption she was exactly like Renee visually and attitude wise I wouldn't have minded this. But I guess I'm not a true fan. I also didn't mind any of the changes made in the Joker, but maybe they should have called that something else because it might have upset the real fans?

If they didn't want to associate Eckhart with Bullock they shouldn't have had him be a sloppy detective in a fedora and overcoat with a crude yet sardonic sense of humor.

Rhyno
Mar 22, 2003

how few people do you
need before you can
change the world?


Aphrodite posted:

Nobody was talking about AoS. They specifically said movies. Keep up.

Vince brought up the show.

Open Marriage Night
Sep 18, 2009

"Do you want to talk to a spider, Peter?"




My baseless assumption about Shazam 2: Electric Magic Boogaloo using an original villain, is because the name Isis is a no go.

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

Only Accused Of STATUTORY Rape

Wouldn't Isis more likely be in the Black Adam movie?

Sentinel Red
Nov 13, 2007
Style > Content.

Vince MechMahon posted:

If other than the corruption she was exactly like Renee visually and attitude wise I wouldn't have minded this. But I guess I'm not a true fan. I also didn't mind any of the changes made in the Joker, but maybe they should have called that something else because it might have upset the real fans?

If they didn't want to associate Eckhart with Bullock they shouldn't have had him be a sloppy detective in a fedora and overcoat with a crude yet sardonic sense of humor.

And that is where we differ, Vince. If they're not going to remain true in spirit, personally I'd rather they just didn't bother. Killing Bullock before he has a chance to develop and redeem himself, having Montoya in Maroni's pocket and selling out her colleagues, having a Cassandra Cain who is so far removed from the character people loved in the first place as to more or less be someone else...I just find it lame, it's the worst kind of low effort fan service. "Look, it's that thing! Sure, it's nothing actually like the thing beyond its name and a superficial visual level but hey! Thing! They're here!"

For example, I doubt anyone minded Flass in Batman Begins. Visually, he was nothing like Flass from the comic - indeed, he was basically Eckhart 2.0, another schlub cop - but he absolutely was Flass where it counted, character-wise. And that's all I'm saying. As long as a character is (reasonably) in keeping with the spirit of the original in service to the story being told, that's what I'm looking for in an adaptation. And conversely, having Bullock be onscreen only to do some don's dirty work and die, the end would not bring me joy.

[insert 'furious 1000 word rant about why Keanu-Conjob is straight up trash because he actually learns his lesson at the end of the film and quits smoking instead of ploughing on through 3 packs of Silk Cut a day like an idiot champ' here]

Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008





I think where we differ is the core of how we look at the movies. l'm never expecting a 1:1 translation unless it's Sin City and that's the gimmick. I look at all movies as Elseworlds. They're different takes on existing characters, with any luck by a creative team that has something interesting to say with those characters, even if they're changed from their "true" versions. Corrupt Burton-Verse Bullock who's a corrupt rear end in a top hat is more interesting to me, and due to his name and that little slice of recognition, makes me just a sliver more invested than some new guy named Eckhart, when for the purposes of the movie, 8/10 things about those characters are already identical.

You can certainly go too far and make it ridiculous, like the previously mentioned Cassandra Caine in Birds of Prey. That one's a real head scratcher even to me. And there's certainly times where you can add in a new character to fill a niche. But generally I just prefer seeing versions of characters I'm familiar with, whether they're altered or almost the same. The more major the character the longer the list of things I want to see becomes, but my list is probably different than anyone elses.

Karloff
Mar 21, 2013



They tried it with Jimmy Olsen and it didn't go down too well.

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007





Karloff posted:

They tried it with Jimmy Olsen and it didn't go down too well.

howe_sam
Mar 7, 2013

Creepy little garbage eaters



John Wick of Dogs posted:

Wouldn't Isis more likely be in the Black Adam movie?

Current speculation is that she is and Sarah Shahi is playing her

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Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008





What they did with Jimmy was dumb but only because Jenny was already those movies version of Jimmy. They just didn't give her that last name. It was Eckhart all over again!

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