|
I moved out west to Oregon this year and boy is it a doozy of a year to come here. Oregon is having historic fires in places that usually don't have them and there are evacuations 15 miles from my house and the air outside is not safe to breathe. I have always been fascinated by the concept of wildland firefighting, as a somewhat frequent visitor to national forest backcountry out west. But growing up in appalachia we never learned much about it because it's not really a thing there. Now that I live out west and especially now that it's happening very close by, my curiosity is only increasing and I want to know more about how it works. Some of what I'm curious about might be stuff they learn about in like middle school out west, I don't know! I'm hoping some people here know some basic info that I don't, maybe there are even some experts floating around, though I imagine they are busy right now if so. Things like: Just a general overview of how fighting a wildfire is approached, I honestly know very little. What constitutes containment? How big are the lines of control and what do they look like? If embers can fly half a mile in the wind, how can a fire ever be contained without like mile wide trenches? How are lines of control created? Do they look like big trenches or what? How does all this differ in the deep backcountry vs closer to civilization and roads? Something about smokejumpers ??? How is heavy equipment brought to the deep backcountry, if at all? What kind of work is done by hand crews vs heavy equipment? What does it look like? Is it a bunch of people digging trenches, or cutting trees, or what? Is hand crew vs heavy equipment similar kinds of actions just with different ways of doing it, or are they doing different things? Planes and helicopters dropping water - how is this deployed, do they focus it at the edges of the fire to keep it from spreading or ? I think a backburn is when you burn some stuff to remove fuel to stop the fire from spreading. How do you keep the backburn contained when the forest is already a tinderbox? How does one actually play out in practice? Sometimes in national forest lands out west I've seen these big (5-10 foot) piles of fallen logs and brush, like someone collected the dispersed fallen logs and needles and dry brush from the forest and put it all in the pile, and there are a bunch of these piles like 50 yards apart, clearly a deliberate and fairly large project. I've always assumed it's related to fire mitigation, is that true? If so, how does it help? If anything these piles always look like a big ol bonfire waiting to happen, to me. Also to any firefighters who decide to post here, a pre-emptive and sincere thank you for you are service. To anyone affected by wildfires, my goondolences.
|
#
?
Sep 11, 2020 17:41
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 03:02 |
|
|
Sorry I can't really answer any of these questions, but I recently came across this video and it made me think of this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EodxubsO8EI
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 20:34
|
|
|
cheque_some posted:Sorry I can't really answer any of these questions, but I recently came across this video and it made me think of this thread: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EodxubsO8EI This was a helpful introduction, it definitely helps me understand the basic overview a bit better. I'm still very curious to know more details though.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 21:33
|
|
|
The rules around firefighting have changed pretty quickly over the past few years, everything is so much hotter and windier now that the old rules don't really work. We used to worry about dead trees from pine beetles and set up defensible zones and whatnot, but if the wind is blowing 60 mph and it's 95 degrees for all of September than everything will burn, embers can fly for thousands of feet and even the big old fire resistant trees burn. I think the strategy is shifting more towards thinning out the forest and setting up breaks on ridgelines wherever it makes sense, but even then if it gets really windy you are just hosed.
|
|
#
?
Sep 25, 2020 23:23
|
|
|
There's a lot to unpack in your questions and it doesn't always shake out the same. The basics of firefighting starts with the fire triangle: fuels, heat, and air (oxygen). You need all 3 for combustion, so the basic premise of firefighting (Containment) is knocking one of the legs of that tripod out. For instance, heat/air is what they're attacking when using an air tanker or helicopter to drop water on a fire flank. "Cutting line" is using a hand crew or dozer to create a break in the fuels on the forest floor and understory to stop the fire. If you can create a break in the fuels and knock the heat out of the head of the fire, you can throw a line all the way around it and contain it, basically. Heavy equipment essentially doesn't go into the backcountry, its what smokejumpers, hotshots, and normal hand crews are for. (link to guide for typing resource crews, click "crews" : https://www.nwcg.gov/publications/pms200) There's a lot to it but there's some open access videos from the National Wildfire Coordinating Group that you might wanna poke around and look at. They're all super campy training videos but they review terminology and have action shots interspersed throughout. Basic Intro to wildland fire behavior, unit 1 powerpoint is helpful and the videos have basic terminology and a cheesy rundown of how a fire is approached by the incident commander (IC): https://www.nwcg.gov/publications/training-courses/s-190/course-materials Intro to firefighter training, no videos but some interesting powerpoints with pictures (unit 7 powerpoint - suppression): https://www.nwcg.gov/publications/training-courses/s-130/course-materials Chainsaws on a handcrew, kind of boring but lots of shots of handcrews cutting line while the sawyers select the path: https://www.nwcg.gov/publications/training-courses/rt-130/hazards/haz501 General directory of refresher course videos, check out the case study category, fire/environment, and operations (like the fire triangle or "the mighty engine" videos) https://www.nwcg.gov/publications/training-courses/rt-130/wfstar-catalog I'm not a firefighter, I'm a forester but I work on the militia handcrew/engine as a single resource for the forest I help manage so I have a little experience.. If you have the time watch a few of the videos on the basics and a case study or two. You might be lost but you'd still be better off than if I tried explaining it to you. Big_Gulps_Huh fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Sep 30, 2020 |
|
#
?
Sep 30, 2020 05:05
|
|
|
alnilam posted:Just a general overview of how fighting a wildfire is approached, I honestly know very little. This is a really broad question, but a good one. Generally wildland fire is approach as a function of land management in the US. When we're talking about federal land, the decisions the Incident Commander makes are based off of a delegation of authority from the administrator of that land, usually the Department of the Interior or US Forest Service. Unlike in Europe, wildfire is normally not treated as an emergency situation in and of itself. The big exception to this is California, with CALFIRE. They are an emergency management organization. There is a lot to unpack with this question, so feel free to expand on this question quote:What constitutes containment? How big are the lines of control and what do they look like? If embers can fly half a mile in the wind, how can a fire ever be contained without like mile wide trenches? https://www.nwcg.gov/term/glossary/containment Fireline is essentially a fuels gap down to bare mineral soil. How wide they are really depends on the situation. Sometimes you may only need 6 inch wide line, others you might need to have as wide as a driveway. Depends on the situation. quote:How are lines of control created? Do they look like big trenches or what? Constructed fireline is either dug by hand or by heavy equipment. Control line can include natural barriers as well, like lakes, roads, or other areas with no readily available fuels. Generally when you look at handline you see a scraped line down to bare mineral soil, and as thick as deemed necessary depending on the situation. Normally it's not deep at all unless you're building line downhill from a fire. quote:How does all this differ in the deep backcountry vs closer to civilization and roads? Something about smokejumpers ??? Can't use engines and heavy equipment in the backcountry, obviously. You do it by good ole fashioned sweat. Just a whole bunch of folks whacking the dirt with their tools. Jumpers, helitack, and helicopter rapellers are great for smaller fires in inaccessible places, but they do have their limitations. You aren't going to fully suppress a 100 acre fire in timber with just a load (6-10) of smokejumpers, for example. quote:How is heavy equipment brought to the deep backcountry, if at all? Simply, it isn't. It's all manual labor, assisted from the air by tankers and helicopters. quote:What kind of work is done by hand crews vs heavy equipment? What does it look like? Is it a bunch of people digging trenches, or cutting trees, or what? Is hand crew vs heavy equipment similar kinds of actions just with different ways of doing it, or are they doing different things? When we're talking about line, handline and dozer line are the same things in a very general sense. They both serve as gaps in continuous fuels to check the fire's spread. Now obviously there are places where heavy equipment is more efficient vs handcrews, and vice versa. Dependent on fuels and terrain. Handcrews also do burnout operations, mop up, and patrol line. There are definitely roles for both. A crew cutting line is an assembly line. A couple dudes out front with chainsaws cutting trees, then a few more guys with special tools to break up fuels, and so on until you get to the guy in the back with (generally) a shovel making sure that the line is indeed down to bare mineral soil free of fuel and doing quality control. A lot depends on the situation. quote:Planes and helicopters dropping water - how is this deployed, do they focus it at the edges of the fire to keep it from spreading or ? quote:I think a backburn is when you burn some stuff to remove fuel to stop the fire from spreading. How do you keep the backburn contained when the forest is already a tinderbox? How does one actually play out in practice? The objective of a burnout is to remove unburned fuel between your control line and the incoming fire. That fire you put on the ground is going to be a lot less violent then the fire you're fighting. The intensity of a fire is very dependent on terrain and fuels. By burning out, you're removing that fuel at a time and place of your choosing. It's a widely used tactic to deny the fire an ability to grow. Doesn't work all the time, but it's used quite a bit quote:Sometimes in national forest lands out west I've seen these big (5-10 foot) piles of fallen logs and brush, like someone collected the dispersed fallen logs and needles and dry brush from the forest and put it all in the pile, and there are a bunch of these piles like 50 yards apart, clearly a deliberate and fairly large project. I've always assumed it's related to fire mitigation, is that true? If so, how does it help? If anything these piles always look like a big ol bonfire waiting to happen, to me. You're not far off. Fire in a forest is actually pretty good when it remains on the ground. It removes a lot of built up crap. It's bad when it gets into the crowns of the trees. That's when you see your 100ft flame lengths and extreme fire behavior (generally). The problem is ladder fuels. Low branches, small trees, brush that can get the fire from the ground to the tops of mature trees. Those piles you see are those fuels. In the summer, contractors or agency fuels crews will hike into the forest and spend days or weeks removing these fuels and piling them up in clear areas. Not that much fun unless you're really thinning and you're getting to fall larger trees, but necessary. They'll sit there and dry out for a few years, and then come snow on the ground some people will go out and light those piles on fire, thereby consuming the fuel. It eliminates all that ladder fuel and thins out the forest, making fire far less intense when it does come through.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2020 03:13
|
|
|
alnilam posted:
Oh slash piles make great bonfires... in Winter. Pile burns are (at least where I am) planned out similarly to larger (broadcast) prescribed fires. They get lit off on days when it is very unlikely that the fire will spread, in some regions that means those piles will be burned when theres a foot or two of snow on the ground.
|
|
#
?
Oct 1, 2020 15:15
|
|
|
I do a lot of hiking in the winter here in Colorado, and I can confirm it's really cool to hike ten miles into a dead silent frozen valley somewhere and then see and hear these huge flames billowing up off the top of the mountain above you. There are no sawmills near here so they just burn everything- slash and the big old pines all go in the same piles. When the air is calm and there is snow everywhere they just don't seem to give a gently caress how big the fire gets, just want to get rid of fuel quickly while conditions are good. I love seeing those winter ridgeline fires.
|
|
#
?
Oct 2, 2020 11:44
|
|
|
I've burned in the snow before. It can get...fairly entertaining. If the crew that did the fuels reduction assignment ahead of you was lazy/lovely, you'll have fires creep through logs under the snow. You'll notice it because you'll see smoke coming out of a patch of snow thirty feet away and digging it away will reveal a smoldering log. Private contractor piles were always sexy - a few seconds with a drip torch and they'd go up like the beacons of Gondor. Inmate piles were usually totally poo poo - you'd dump dozens of gallons of mix (1 part gas to 3 parts diesel) into them before they'd finally burn. Burn days and burn assignments are very tightly controlled, and more often than not you'll get waved off at the last minute because of xyz thing. Trees can and do torch during pile burning - this is expected and probably fine, a few torched trees in the winter are rarely a problem. Additionally, in some slopes, it's basically impossible to not have burn piles turn into a controlled burn, so they'll cut a control line around the area before the piles go up. Toward the end of spring, this can get especially entertaining if you've got a creepy pile (yes, very professional terminology, I know) that you've gotta come back and get under control every few minutes. You'd also be major league surprised by just how much conifer forest can burn up and still be ok. I've seen completely torched out pines grow back needles in the spring. You can actually see if totally burned out trees are still alive by coring them not too long after the fire - if the cambium is green and goey, the tree is alive but dormant. If it's yellow and flaky, the tree is dead and may need to removed. I did restoration work on the Rim Fire burn scar a couple years ago, and it was not an uncommon site to see a 120 foot tall Ponderosa pine that had completely burned have the top ten feet with a tiny little green crown on it. Oak forests, on the other hand, can completely burn up in a super hot fire and come back within a decade or two. I've seen more than a few 50 inch oak snags with green shoots popping out at the base. Give it a few years, and most of the oaks that burned up will turn into little bushes of shoots. Likewise with most brush here in CA. I've driven through another burn scar a few times, and you wouldn't even know that it had burned if not for the few torched up gray pines that are there.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 05:44
|
|
|
A White Guy posted:
Yeah, I'd heard that about Region 5 (not about tightly controlled, more about getting waved off constantly). I can count on one hand the number of days I've been on a burn that ended up getting scratched. I think its only happened twice in three years I've been down in Region 8... both times because we didn't get the forecast wind and couldn't keep flame lengths high enough to be productive. That said, what even counts as "inside" the burn season for you guys? I know CA is big af and your weather really isn't conducive for Rx... but I've seen modules with folks from CA all over the country during the wintertime and I'd have thought that's when they'd be needed back home.
|
|
#
?
Oct 6, 2020 17:31
|
|
|
The Strangest Finch posted:Yeah, I'd heard that about Region 5 (not about tightly controlled, more about getting waved off constantly). I think that 'this day is ok to burn' to roughly relative to the last time it rained seriously, plus the usual conditions (low wind speed, high RHs, moderate temps). 2019, I was burning in the very opening weeks of June because the last few weeks of May had had heavy intermittent rains. We were working a rural school, and the last day we were burning the CalFire guys rolled out and told me "Hey, we're done burning after today". Not two days later, we had to move camp because a neighboring pasture got on fire and the helitack teams were unloading at the school's soccer field. The burn season in California, roughly speaking, runs from the last rains of winter and spring (which have been shifting over the years) to the first rains of winter. In the past, that meant a season correspondingly roughly to the last weeks of May to the start of October. Tahoe has been seeing weird winters wherein the amount of snow hasn't really changed, but the time it falls has. Instead of starting in October, and lightly snowing practically everyday til May, it instead is dry and cold all the way til January and then it loving dumps for four months before the snows largely abate by June. It's also important to remember that California is huge, so the Santa Anna's that rage through LA in October have exactly nothing in common with the first rains of winter in Humboldt county. Each area has its own different cycle to consider. In the mountains, that means if there's snow on the ground, you can probably burn (depending upon how severe the winds area, as I've had snow covered hills still burn in the middle of March). In the valley (meaning the Central Valley), burning has to be done in the rainy season of Decemberish-Mayish. In SoCal, lmao, the fukken desert will burn anytime outside of the last two weeks of September, and the coastal areas tend to burn between July and November. To sum up, 'it's this time of year to burn' is a kind of wisdom that's started to die here in California. 'When's the last time it rained seriously?' is a more important question to your calculations. Finally, this year was so bad in terms of fire (record breaking burn acreage) that some areas will not need extensive burning for a decade plus now. One of the examples that I think about is the city of Redding, CA. In the last four years, all the cardinal directions of Redding have seen huge fires completely consume the available fuel. The Hirz, Delta, Carr, and now the Zogg fire have burned all the outlying areas of the city in every direction. So for the next decade or two, I don't think Redding will seriously need to consider its fuels problem - because all those fuels have already been consumed.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2020 20:58
|
|
|
OP checking in to say I am really appreciating the replies! I am learning a lot. After some rains here they were able to get really close to the fire and do some backburning. It was nice to understand better what I was reading in the news. They are talking about "mopping up" here now, what does that mean? My guess is cleaning the area up of hazards, or does it have a fire related meaning?
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2020 23:22
|
|
|
Mop-up is going back through the burned areas ("the black") near the control lines (usually within several chains (66')) and making sure everything is out with lots of scraping logs and turning soil with a spade. Sawyers will also go and fell snags or hazard trees near trails etc. IMO the worst part of being on a fire is the mop-up.
|
|
#
?
Oct 11, 2020 23:40
|
|
|
So if you are actually fighting fires and breathing in smoke all day for X days every year do you just sort of expect your lungs to give out at some point? Do the old timers have lots of health problems?
|
|
#
?
Oct 12, 2020 02:39
|
|
|
Lung cancer is an issue for career firefighters. A fella I know up at Tahoe National Forest gets his lungs CT-scanned every year. Skin cancer is also a big deal - a lot of these guys never wear sunscreen and work outside all day. Mouth/throat cancer is also an occupational hazard from the two horse shoes of dip every fourth or fifth firefighter has stuffed in his/her mouth. I don't really know about emphysema/COPD long term rates in firefighters. As for health issues, eeeeeh. A lifetime of swinging pulaskis and hauling poo poo around is not exactly conducive to a graceful retirement into old age, but most of the old rear end firefighters I know actually look pretty good for their age. They've been fit and in shape most of their life, and yeah they might look about ten or fifteen years older than they actually are (sun+smoke will age the hell out of you), they're still mobile and active. Statistically speaking, working outdoors generally leads to longer life expectancy, even if you're out of shape and smoke, versus those who work indoors and actually have their health together.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2020 15:46
|
|
|
You dont see old cowboys and thats the same poo poo for firefighting. Dont use the handful of old strays around as positive examples, it ruins bodies inside and out. Its coal mining type poo poo. You're seeing a 45 year old person and saying they look 65 but that's ok because they are tan and can hike! Lmfao. Also you're talking about retirement like it's relevant in a seasonal job. It's a terrible loving job, cut that ableism garbage out about being old and active.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2020 16:26
|
|
|
Harry Potter on Ice posted:Also you're talking about retirement like it's relevant in a seasonal job. It's a terrible loving job, cut that ableism garbage out about being old and active. Have you just not heard of Fire retirement or? Regardless, the age pyramid in fire gets really loving steep after 30 or so. Most firefighters don't get to GS-5 (the point at which you become a permanent hire) after all. Until recently there really wasn't a consistent way to move into the upper pay-tiers on experience alone, which meant that people looking at their careers long term might have a pretty strong incentive to jump ship. In theory the apprenticeship program might fix that. I have a few friends that have gone through it and are sitting pretty career-wise now. That said, I've only met a couple old firefighters who weren't in pretty drat good shape. MUCH more frequent are the low-40s set who look like they're 50+ and no doubt aren't going to be able to pass a pack-test in a few more years.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2020 16:52
|
|
|
I almost completed my ict5 taskbook before getting burnt out, so yes.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2020 16:56
|
|
|
Harry Potter on Ice posted:I almost completed my ict5 taskbook before getting burnt out, so yes. Yes to what? IC5 is literally the lowest rung of the leadership ladder. That could put you at anywhere from 2 seasons to 5 depending on how dickish your overhead was. But you're right that most people get out young. Unless you can get a perm slot its really not a great way to make a living long term.
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2020 17:04
|
|
|
Yes to fire retirement and laughing more at you thinking someone is getting a perm and ic5 open at 2 seasons. As far as leadership.. pretty standard assholes in the fire world but I was on one of the older crews so it was really really difficult to move up as turnover was extremely low and most seasons not at all
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2020 17:08
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 24, 2024 03:02 |
|
|
Harry Potter on Ice posted:Yes to fire retirement and laughing more at you thinking someone is getting a perm and ic5 open at 2 seasons. As far as leadership.. pretty standard assholes in the fire world but I was on one of the older crews so it was really really difficult to move up as turnover was extremely low and most seasons not at all I actually have heard that about older / hotshot crews. About the latter I've heard almost nothing good to be honest. That would kinda explain it though. You can believe me or not, but I had my FFT1/ICT5 open after 3 seasons and took 2 years of pretty frequent training assignments to close them both. I did have the significant advantage of being on a small crew that had a lot of time for training and remarkably good leadership though. All the other FFT2s on the crew who started around the same time as me had their stuff closed out at about the same rate... assuming they stuck with it. That whole experience might be why I have a somewhat sunnier view of the training process than a lot of people -- I got pretty lucky. Personally, I thanked my bosses by jumping ship to the private side of the equation as soon as I could figure out how, the grass is greener and I suck a hell of a lot less smoke. As far as GS5 goes, no I've never met anyone who claimed to have that in two years, but I also didn't say that. I did have a crewmate who somehow managed it in 3 (with off-season gigs to build up his experience), but everyone figured there had been blood sacrifices involved as he was kind of a space cadet. On a different thing entirely A White Guy posted:
Not being familiar with California, what do you think the fire return interval in Redding would be moving forward? Assuming that the last couple shitstorm years have removed the fuel buildup / pushed the reset button, how often would Rx fires need to happen in order to keep it at a level where a catastrophic event isn't likely? I've heard a lot about how wild changes in yearly precipitation can lead to rapid buildup of fuels in future years but do y'all have much in the way of a rule of thumb?
|
|
#
?
Oct 14, 2020 17:28
|
|