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Pick
Jul 19, 2009




Nap Ghost



They do have some speculative tech, to assist with certain species needs.

And they probably have spaceships? At our level though. They have cell phones.

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Roth
Jul 9, 2016




It's sci-fur

Incelshok Na
Jul 2, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 26 days!


Easy, it's fantasy.

It's a world like ours, but different in a few fundamental ways. The tech reflects those differences.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



Its urban fantasy, so fantasy

Its also a film that did not sit right with me at all at the time and I think considerably more of the US has caught up to that feeling.

Barudak fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Sep 16, 2020

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Barudak posted:

Its urban fantasy, so fantasy

Its also a film that did not sit right with me at all at the time and I think considerably more of the US has caught up to that feeling.

It's truly an all-timer for a 'that aged poorly' film.

The most scifi aspect of it is that there's a single city that air conditions an entire district right next to a superheated district, but since that could be anything from magic to mundane but expensive climate control, I don't think it matters.

Cobalt-60
Oct 11, 2016

Over time, random factors add up. What is chaos in the moment becomes systemic over time and space. As data accumulates, a pattern emerges.



It's fantasy.

Even if you buy into the basic ideas (anthropomorphic animals? sure), there are WAY too many unanswered questions. Beginning with "what's keeping herbivore population in check?"

grassy gnoll
Aug 27, 2006

The pawsting business is tough work.

Gun Saliva

The fox eats grapes, therefore it is part of the classical canon.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


I would call it fantasy except that it is constantly trying to justify the fantasy elements with some boring, internal, self-contradictory logic. "Cartoon animals living in a city and behaving like people" is so easy to imagine that it formed the foundation for popular animation 100 years ago, so the film ends up being a lot of very old jokes about ways animals are, but they can't really do any of the fun stuff cartoon characters can do, and all their character momentum is directed toward a plot with very dark and down-to earth themes. In fact, the themes of racial prejudice and rejecting stereotypes completely contradict hilarious, cutting edge jokes where lemmings eat a lot of popsicles all in order, and sloths are slow.

It's like, it is technically fantasy, but it cannot possibly be because it is pulling back so hard from its natural fantasy elements. It's hard sci fi.


Cobalt-60 posted:

It's fantasy.

Even if you buy into the basic ideas (anthropomorphic animals? sure), there are WAY too many unanswered questions. Beginning with "what's keeping herbivore population in check?"

the guy who shot bambi's mom

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Super funny that the original concept for the movie got reworked hastily because test audiences saw the setting as a horrific dystopia

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Cobalt-60 posted:

It's fantasy.

Even if you buy into the basic ideas (anthropomorphic animals? sure), there are WAY too many unanswered questions. Beginning with "what's keeping herbivore population in check?"

Well, the sign outside the rabbit town has a population counter that is just increasing wildly all the time, so it looks like "nothing." Nobody seems to be starving so I think we're just supposed to accept that the food production & distribution systems have massive capacity above and beyond the current population.

Ghost Leviathan posted:

Super funny that the original concept for the movie got reworked hastily because test audiences saw the setting as a horrific dystopia

First I've heard of this, was the original concept better?

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Original concept was way more specific about predators being controlled to the point of mandatory shock collars iirc, they had a young bear being given one on his 'bear mitzvah'

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Ghost Leviathan posted:

Original concept was way more specific about predators being controlled to the point of mandatory shock collars iirc, they had a young bear being given one on his 'bear mitzvah'

More like Beastars (I haven't watched Beastars)?

That's a massive change in not just tone but meaning, to the point of being totally incompatible. The main 'in' we have to understand Zootopia as having anything to say other than animation gags is that the predators are historically and politically privileged, so to have them be both the elite and under dramatic social restrictions is to tell a very different story.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



The original treatment they aren't the elite, they're basically a hated minority group.

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Barudak posted:

The original treatment they aren't the elite, they're basically a hated minority group.

Yeah, so it's a completely different social structure and thus different set of tropes and so on. Which is a hell of a thing to change at the last minute.

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

Rise and shine, master leprechaun.




lol, get it. The purple stuff makes them super predators.

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

Rise and shine, master leprechaun.




You know

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

Rise and shine, master leprechaun.




like Hilary

ikanreed
Sep 25, 2009

Rise and shine, master leprechaun.




Hilary Clinton

Pick
Jul 19, 2009




Nap Ghost

Tulip posted:

It's truly an all-timer for a 'that aged poorly' film.

💯

Sarcastro
Dec 28, 2000
Elite member of the Grammar Nazi Squad that

It's a straight-up sequel to Sing, centuries later after the apocalypse.

(edit: it's also criminal that it won Best Animated over Moana)

Some Goon
Jan 6, 2013

A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.




I haven't seen it, but if, other than the animal people, it's a contemporary society, wouldn't it just be fiction? Or is the big twist that everyone used to be human?

Linux Pirate
Apr 21, 2012

Well, there goes our grant money.



Maybe I missed it, but what are the carnivore animals supposed to eat if they live side by side with herbivores?

Also why has no one in the entire internet mentioned that Nick the fox sells the Marlon Brando mouse a skunk skin rug? That's some Ed Gein poo poo.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Rabbit cop fights prejudice and bias regarding her small size to become a cop only to end up confronting prejudice and bias that she against normally carnivorous animals that she herself shared. Seems relevant to me.

I'm not sure what the original plan for the plot was, but it sure was something. A lot less subtle about the oppression, but also a lot more of a stretched metaphor for real-world oppression. Not being able to get a bank loan because of being an oppressed minority is very real though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNY3TBMILgI

Cobalt-60 posted:

It's fantasy.

Even if you buy into the basic ideas (anthropomorphic animals? sure), there are WAY too many unanswered questions. Beginning with "what's keeping herbivore population in check?"

Birth control. They're people. What's keeping the Irish population in check?

Linux Pirate posted:

Maybe I missed it, but what are the carnivore animals supposed to eat if they live side by side with herbivores?

There's kind of a lot of kids' movies with talking animals that act like animals don't really have any dietary needs, they can all eat the same thing.

But also I think only mammals are sentient in the movie, so fish, birds, bugs, bivalves.

dudeness
Mar 5, 2010

Cat Army


Fallen Rib

It's Utopia/Dystopia, kinda like The Giver, so I think that puts it in Sci Fi. Utopia because it appears that a society caters to all of it's citizens needs equally, dystopian turn when it turns out there are still cops.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Linux Pirate posted:

Maybe I missed it, but what are the carnivore animals supposed to eat if they live side by side with herbivores?

Human Beings.

Aglet56
Sep 1, 2011


it was funny when detective pikachu wound up being pretty much a remake of zootopia

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Aglet56 posted:

it was funny when detective pikachu wound up being pretty much a remake of zootopia

and then disco elysium turned out to be a remake of detective pikachu

Aglet56
Sep 1, 2011


Ghost Leviathan posted:

and then disco elysium turned out to be a remake of detective pikachu

Having never played disco elysium, this is by far the most compelling thing I've heard about it

Sleeveless
Dec 25, 2014

I AM TRULY ONE OF THE WORST POSTERS ON THIS SITE. LOOK UPON THIS GUY MANN REREG AND DESPAIR.


Linux Pirate posted:

Maybe I missed it, but what are the carnivore animals supposed to eat if they live side by side with herbivores?

They eat fish and birds since only mammals are anthropomorphic in the film universe. It's a better compromise than something like Kimba where they just bully all the other meat eaters into being vegetarians.

Also since there were no humans there are no domesticated animal species like dogs or housecats in the movie.

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


ikanreed posted:

lol, get it. The purple stuff makes them super predators.

they must be brought to hoof

Tulip
Jun 3, 2008

I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth; I am a citizen of the world.




Some Goon posted:

I haven't seen it, but if, other than the animal people, it's a contemporary society, wouldn't it just be fiction? Or is the big twist that everyone used to be human?

Yeah it's probably not worth trying to fit it into the major genre fiction traditions. There's something to be gained by comparing it to movies like Ringing Bell or even just stuff from Aesop's Fables, and ikanreed probably brings up the most salient point about what the movie is.

That said this really is interesting to me

Barudak posted:

The original treatment they aren't the elite, they're basically a hated minority group.

Because in the movie as released, the big supervillain speech is centered around how predators hold the majority of power. So instead of the sheep being the Hillary Clinton to the lion's Barack Obama, the sheep is the member of the marginalized group working tirelessly for the default accepted white guy in power. This reverberates down the plot - the predator attacks move from being like, Reaganite fear/fiction of black-on-white crime to having more in common with white supremacist terror attacks.

Which leads to one of the two main lessons of the movie being pretty loving gross - the plot of the movie becomes that terrorist attacks by the political elite on the political minority are the result of political machinations on the part of the political minority. Like if somebody blamed KKK attacks on Al Sharpton or Frederick Douglass. (The other main lesson is also pretty bad - that civilian government power needs to be held in check by police forces.)

If the production made such an abrupt change - nearly a 180 - would explain how this gets muddled weirdly. There's scenes that imply that the prey animals are the privileged group, like Nick being bullied as a kid or Judy's "you're one of the good ones" line, even though they run contrary to the central villain thesis. These parts make more sense as remnants of the previous draft. But in the case of a pretty blunt race allegory, switching things around has some fairly negative repercussions.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Handling of fictional race relations in sci-fi or fantasy settings tends to be incredibly fraught at best. (see the Avatar thread) The allegory in Zootopia ends up at best confused, and maybe more sexism than racism, but honestly I don't think the writers even knew.

Funny thing is that they basically fumbled with what furry webcomics have been dealing with for decades plural at this point.

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


Ghost Leviathan posted:

Handling of fictional race relations in sci-fi or fantasy settings tends to be incredibly fraught at best. (see the Avatar thread) The allegory in Zootopia ends up at best confused, and maybe more sexism than racism, but honestly I don't think the writers even knew.

Funny thing is that they basically fumbled with what furry webcomics have been dealing with for decades plural at this point.

Dreaming of Zootopia

Sleeveless
Dec 25, 2014

I AM TRULY ONE OF THE WORST POSTERS ON THIS SITE. LOOK UPON THIS GUY MANN REREG AND DESPAIR.


The fact that the predator/prey dynamic in Zootopia doesn't map 1/1 to any particular real world form of systemic oppression is the entire reason the movie works. Kids might need to discuss it with their parents to get that but I would hope an adult would recognize that and be able to explain it to them.

Barudak
May 7, 2007



It does however let the film let the main cop make unquestioned racist as hell and wrong statements and face zero repercussions and the mayor get out of jail despite running a kidnapping ring.

Poor Shakira her character was supposed to be the heart of the movie but well she's just a big weird focus with no point in the final version

Atrocious Joe
Sep 2, 2011

I'll leave the past in the past, tomorrow's not promised
And today's just an anime titty I guess that's why it's the present







SlothfulCobra posted:

Birth control. They're people. What's keeping the Irish population in check?

until 100 years ago, the UK

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Just because the mayor is black a lion doesn't mean that there isn't racism against him. That's the whole point of the anti-fox branded mace, there's the perspective that carnivorous animals are implicitly more prone to violence and being threatening. We don't see there being any sort of elitism to predators anywhere else. There are less predators, but there's also less black people, that's what minority means. There are racist populist movements that rely on otherizing a minority to unite the other people despite their differences.

I think the size bias is more confusing, because there's a whole segment of the city that's even smaller than Judy so I guess there's just no police for them? And that may be why one of them is a mob boss.

Sleeveless
Dec 25, 2014

I AM TRULY ONE OF THE WORST POSTERS ON THIS SITE. LOOK UPON THIS GUY MANN REREG AND DESPAIR.


The predator thing works really well as an ableism metaphor, especially for mental health. There are people who through no fault of their own have a greater capacity to harm themselves and others but are also fully capable of living a safe and fulfilling life and there are people who would rather dehumanize them (literally, in the case of the berries that make the predators revert to a feral and bloodthirsty state against their will) and then use that to justify eliminating them from society for their own selfish ends instead of allowing them to be accommodated.

Incelshok Na
Jul 2, 2020
Probation
Can't post for 26 days!


Sleeveless posted:

The fact that the predator/prey dynamic in Zootopia doesn't map 1/1 to any particular real world form of systemic oppression is the entire reason the movie works. Kids might need to discuss it with their parents to get that but I would hope an adult would recognize that and be able to explain it to them.

I think this point is worth emphasizing. If you take Zootopia as a 1:1 mapping to the real world it looks like a mess. If you think of it as a fable, then it works perfectly.

This also answers the original question too: is Zootopia sci-fi or fantasy? It's neither, it's a fable.

This is a good read on fables. The "Life of Aesop" portion is especially worth reading. Think about what Zootopia tells us by having Judy as a central character. Then think about Disney and its place in the world. Aesop being a slave and Judy being a cop aren't accidents. That's also why a lot of people react negatively to Zootopia: because it isn't meant for them. Aesop being a slave tells us the intended audience for Aesop's fables. Judy being a cop from a rural (though it often reads suburban) background tells us the intended audience for Zootopia.

Incelshok Na fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Sep 17, 2020

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Pick
Jul 19, 2009




Nap Ghost

Barudak posted:

It does however let the film let the main cop make unquestioned racist as hell and wrong statements and face zero repercussions and the mayor get out of jail despite running a kidnapping ring.

Poor Shakira her character was supposed to be the heart of the movie but well she's just a big weird focus with no point in the final version

The mayor is still in jail at the end.

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