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Dick Ripple
May 19, 2021
Trying to make a fire by rubbing a stick can teach you a lot of things... But maybe you need some goals in mind before you go out building skillsets. Want to be self sufficient? Bushcraft / Hunting / foraging is not a bad place to start. Tending a garden, building a greenhouse or storage shed... From an outside view a lot of this seems simple, but when you actually try these things you will find out quickly that is not the case.

There is also a lot more to maintence and construction of systems than just having the knowledge and blueprints, I think this is often overlooked. For starters the basic tools to do so, you're only going to get so far with just a hammer and screwdriver.

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Harold Fjord
Jan 3, 2004
You might be able to jury rig something but when you are improvising every single repair because genuine parts aren't being manufactured and distributed across the globe, you're gonna hit a limit.

AreWeDrunkYet
Jul 8, 2006

Atticus_1354 posted:

Why am I building steam engines from scratch when I just need an instruction booklet to tell me how to join these solarpanels or windmills to this giant stack of golf cart batteries? We're not going to be literally thrown back to the stone age. This shits just laying around for anyone who wants to put it together.

Batteries have a surprisingly low lifespan, especially if they aren't being actively used. That's also true for a lot of mechanical components, without regular grease and use they may not even be operational within a year. Almost all human systems quickly break down without maintenance.

It's not realistic to expect to maintain any reasonable level of technology or infrastructure without societal organization.

Atticus_1354
Dec 10, 2006

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AreWeDrunkYet posted:


It's not realistic to expect to maintain any reasonable level of technology or infrastructure without societal organization.

Sure I'll get on board the steam engine train when the entire world has a massive collapse that sends everyone back to a preindustrial state while wiping out all societal organization and physically destroying all pieces of currently existing tech.

withak
Jan 15, 2003


Fun Shoe
I will probably be dead before we can chew through the supply of abandoned technology left sitting around after the collapse of society anyway.

goatsestretchgoals
Jun 4, 2011

AreWeDrunkYet posted:

Batteries have a surprisingly low lifespan, especially if they aren't being actively used. That's also true for a lot of mechanical components, without regular grease and use they may not even be operational within a year. Almost all human systems quickly break down without maintenance.

It's not realistic to expect to maintain any reasonable level of technology or infrastructure without societal organization.

Someone who is reasonably handy can probably figure out that the spinny thing needs lubrication and dump some scavenged motor oil in it. Is it as good as the highly specific lithium grease that it was supposed to take? No, but it will (probably) work, at least for a few hours/days.

Machines that are meant to run for long periods of time with minimal down time are designed to need as little maintenance as possible and that maintenance should be easy to complete. Your neighbor’s Tesla probably isn’t a long term solution but the machine shop across town has some kickass tooling that is designed to continue working despite the best efforts of machinists like me.

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

Atticus_1354 posted:

Sure I'll get on board the steam engine train when the entire world has a massive collapse that sends everyone back to a preindustrial state while wiping out all societal organization and physically destroying all pieces of currently existing tech.

A steam engine can do a lot of useful things, particularly since gasoline is only good for a few months, and useful for maybe a couple of years if the weather cooperates and you're a little lucky.

Atticus_1354
Dec 10, 2006

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Godholio posted:

A steam engine can do a lot of useful things, particularly since gasoline is only good for a few months, and useful for maybe a couple of years if the weather cooperates and you're a little lucky.

What particular event is going to send us all back to that level and allow you time to manufacture a steam engine?

The Voice of Labor
Apr 8, 2020

it's usually not one event but a conglomeration of them. I'd say chief among them though would be the environmental collapse we've been cooking up for the past few hundred years. 8 billion people not being able to get food water and breathable air is going to be bad times

Atticus_1354
Dec 10, 2006

barkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbark
And what fuel are these steam engines going to run on in our climate change hellscape and how much of it do they need on a daily basis?

The Voice of Labor
Apr 8, 2020

corpse methane and who knows. look, if you don't want in on this steam engine stuff that's cool

withak
Jan 15, 2003


Fun Shoe
Instead of shoveling coal, the tenders for our future steam engines will involve someone puncturing old lithium batteries with an ice pick and tossing them into the firebox.

Atticus_1354
Dec 10, 2006

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The Voice of Labor posted:

corpse methane and who knows. look, if you don't want in on this steam engine stuff that's cool

Those are serious questions. Are there going to be slaves working your coal mines? Are you going to be clearcutting forests? We have steam boilers at work and if the natural gas or propane supply gets cut off they aren't going to be doing much good. If we're in a world without gasoline your alternative isn't steam because steam isn't what produces the energy.

The Voice of Labor
Apr 8, 2020

Atticus_1354 posted:

Those are serious questions.

they aren't though. trying to plot out logistics for a:)a future world that is b:) radically dissimilar to ours is a self defeating task. the inferences don't map and predictions about regular stuff in the near future are inherently bad and faulty . it's the opposite problem of having an offline copy of wikipedia and expecting to be able to keep a nuclear power plant going. it's conceivable that civilization can collapse to the point where technology regresses hundreds of years, it's happened at least twice before, it's a fairly vacuous fact, but it's not contradicted by me not having built a water wheel in my back yard

Atticus_1354
Dec 10, 2006

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The Voice of Labor posted:

they aren't though. trying to plot out logistics for a:)a future world that is b:) radically dissimilar to ours is a self defeating task. the inferences don't map and predictions about regular stuff in the near future are inherently bad and faulty . it's the opposite problem of having an offline copy of wikipedia and expecting to be able to keep a nuclear power plant going. it's conceivable that civilization can collapse to the point where technology regresses hundreds of years, it's happened at least twice before, it's a fairly vacuous fact, but it's not contradicted by me not having built a water wheel in my back yard

So you're planning to use steam engines, but it's impossible to plan for the future because the futures unpredictable? Why is the fuel source for your planned power source a bridge to far especially when steam engines are presented as a solution to a failure in our current fuel source.

Atticus_1354 fucked around with this message at 03:11 on May 20, 2022

The Voice of Labor
Apr 8, 2020

I present to you the steam powered steampunk chainsaw, built from the remains of an espresso maker and an instapot, in its natural habitat of a fire devastated forest, harvesting nature's charcoal to drive the furnaces to produce more steam powered steampunk chainsaws.



e: oh yeah, I didn't draw it, but it would probably need to be set up on a bipod because it would be so heavy and awkward

Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

Atticus_1354 posted:

So you're planning to use steam engines, but it's impossible to plan for the future because the futures unpredictable? Why is the fuel source for your planned power source a bridge to far especially when steam engines are presented as a solution to a failure in our current fuel source.

Jesus Christ, go away.

Atticus_1354
Dec 10, 2006

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Godholio posted:

Jesus Christ, go away.

My dude you said gasoline isn't going to be good so it's reasonable to replace it with a steam engine. How is asking what's going to fuel the steam engine a crazy question?

CopperHound
Feb 14, 2012

Jesus Christ, can we go back to talking about first aid?

Here, I'll start:
I'm thinking about stashing some major trauma (as in this person might bleed to death in the 5 minutes it takes an ambulance to get here) first aid kits in all sorts of places for quick access. What kind of stuff would you include that is helpful but won't cause more problems if it was used by a panicked incompetent person?

Here are the things I'm thinking about :

  • wound packing gauze - idk about hemostatic gauze. I would guess the complications are minor when weighed against risk of bleed out, but what if the extra cost means being able to afford one less kit?
  • Bandage/dressing for keeping pressure on wound
  • 2xVented chest seal - hopefully would never need it, but they are cheap and I can't imagine accidentally harming somebody with one.
  • Tourniquet - again, I guess there is a chance of inappropriate use, but would it be better to error on the side of caution and let the professionals deal with the aftermath?
  • Gloves - idk if I would take the time to put them on in such an urgent situation, but it seems irresponsible to not include.

E: hemostatic gauze might actually be much cheaper than I was imagining. I can't tell the the $15 stuff is legit.

CopperHound fucked around with this message at 02:00 on May 21, 2022

Wrong Theory
Aug 27, 2005

Satellite from days of old, lead me to your access code

CopperHound posted:

Jesus Christ, can we go back to talking about first aid?

Here, I'll start:
I'm thinking about stashing some major trauma (as in this person might bleed to death in the 5 minutes it takes an ambulance to get here) first aid kits in all sorts of places for quick access. What kind of stuff would you include that is helpful but won't cause more problems if it was used by a panicked incompetent person?

Here are the things I'm thinking about :

  • wound packing gauze - idk about hemostatic gauze. I would guess the complications are minor when weighed against risk of bleed out, but what if the extra cost means being able to afford one less kit?
  • Bandage/dressing for keeping pressure on wound
  • 2xVented chest seal - hopefully would never need it, but they are cheap and I can't imagine accidentally harming somebody with one.
  • Tourniquet - again, I guess there is a chance of inappropriate use, but would it be better to error on the side of caution and let the professionals deal with the aftermath?
  • Gloves - idk if I would take the time to put them on in such an urgent situation, but it seems irresponsible to not include.

E: hemostatic gauze might actually be much cheaper than I was imagining. I can't tell the the $15 stuff is legit.

I am trying to think of things that could be procured or reused in a situation where you don't know when you can be resupplied.

Gauze is pretty cheap but it is only considered sterile for a couple years. It might be worth more thinking of some sort of re-useable rag that could be sterilized I think. Not so much for packing wounds but more for covering deep cuts and such. Most gauze I think is shot with gamma rays to sterilize it, I know sunlight can sterilize it but to what extent and if it would be clean enough I don't know.

Another issue is antibiotics. Say you get shot with a through and through, through the arm or something. The wound might not kill you but the infection might. Penicillin is growable from what I have read, I think you can grow it on potatoes or something similar that is either starchy or sugary. Administering it safely definitely takes some knowledge that I probably wouldn't trust myself to know. For painkillers I know tree bark soup is basically aspirin, the Chinese and Native Americans both figured that one out. I don't know what trees though.

As for chest wounds and wounds needing tourniquets, I don't know. At that point you need surgery which is specialized training, tools and information you probably aren't going to find in a book. Although what about civil war style amputations? Dress the stump, remove the tourniquet and apply antibiotics?

CopperHound
Feb 14, 2012

Sorry, I'm working from the point of view of people that aren't in a collapsed society yet and want to do whatever they can to keep it from collapsing.

L0cke17
Nov 29, 2013

CopperHound posted:

Jesus Christ, can we go back to talking about first aid?

Here, I'll start:
I'm thinking about stashing some major trauma (as in this person might bleed to death in the 5 minutes it takes an ambulance to get here) first aid kits in all sorts of places for quick access. What kind of stuff would you include that is helpful but won't cause more problems if it was used by a panicked incompetent person?

Here are the things I'm thinking about :

  • wound packing gauze - idk about hemostatic gauze. I would guess the complications are minor when weighed against risk of bleed out, but what if the extra cost means being able to afford one less kit?
  • Bandage/dressing for keeping pressure on wound
  • 2xVented chest seal - hopefully would never need it, but they are cheap and I can't imagine accidentally harming somebody with one.
  • Tourniquet - again, I guess there is a chance of inappropriate use, but would it be better to error on the side of caution and let the professionals deal with the aftermath?
  • Gloves - idk if I would take the time to put them on in such an urgent situation, but it seems irresponsible to not include.

E: hemostatic gauze might actually be much cheaper than I was imagining. I can't tell the the $15 stuff is legit.

Tourniquet, gauze, compression bandage required imo.

Gloves, silver sharpie (writes better on more surfaces/skin types than black), hemostatic gauze secondary, but very nice if you need them.

In my backpack I keep a small ifak that has tourniquet, 6"compression bandage, hemostatic gause, regular gauze, silver sharpie, strap cutter, shears, tiny window breaker, gloves, and some hand sanitizer (for me if I need to use it).

I've needed it one time, person I was with got bit by a dog really badly, blood was spurting everywhere. Slapped the compression bandage on the hand, stopped the bleeding very fast.

If you've taken no first aid classes I'd highly recommend checking out stop the bleed before you buy anything
https://www.stopthebleed.org/

They put on free classes all over the country. Go there, try the things firsthand, then figure out what you need.

You may also want to check out something like the throw kits from NARescue
https://www.narescue.com/kit-individual-throw-basic.html

They come vacuum sealed with the basics, there's several tiers of them, and you can stash them wherever you need.

Edit: also never buy medical poo poo in Amazon, it's rife with fakes.

L0cke17 fucked around with this message at 03:37 on May 21, 2022

Wrong Theory
Aug 27, 2005

Satellite from days of old, lead me to your access code

CopperHound posted:

Sorry, I'm working from the point of view of people that aren't in a collapsed society yet and want to do whatever they can to keep it from collapsing.

Gotcha! North American Rescue makes a lot of good kits with stuff that you could stock up on.

This is what I carry in my range bag (granted it is more for gunshot wounds considering where it goes when it goes with me):

2 Z-pack gauze
2 Israeli Bandages
1 Tourniquet
1 Nasopharyngeal with lube
1 Eye Shield
1 Roll tape
1 Space Blanket
1 Front and back hyfin chest seal kit
1 Medical shears
1 Sharpie
1 Pair nitrile gloves (for PPE)

Some other things to consider:

CPR face shield (if you or someone with you is CRP certified)
One of those moldable splints with some of those army triangle wraps (those can be used for other stuff as well)
Neck braces, just to stabilize the neck until a responder can take over (fake edit: the cervical collar I carried in my aid bag in afghanistan is $15 on NAR, 8 if you want the white one instead of OD green)
Some sort of liter, NAR has a quick liter that folds out
Knives and tools, you never know, even strap cutters and multi-tools
Flash lights and chemlights for working in the dark and marking areas in low light

hypnophant
Oct 19, 2012

CopperHound posted:

Jesus Christ, can we go back to talking about first aid?

Here, I'll start:
I'm thinking about stashing some major trauma (as in this person might bleed to death in the 5 minutes it takes an ambulance to get here) first aid kits in all sorts of places for quick access. What kind of stuff would you include that is helpful but won't cause more problems if it was used by a panicked incompetent person?

Here are the things I'm thinking about :

  • wound packing gauze - idk about hemostatic gauze. I would guess the complications are minor when weighed against risk of bleed out, but what if the extra cost means being able to afford one less kit?
  • Bandage/dressing for keeping pressure on wound
  • 2xVented chest seal - hopefully would never need it, but they are cheap and I can't imagine accidentally harming somebody with one.
  • Tourniquet - again, I guess there is a chance of inappropriate use, but would it be better to error on the side of caution and let the professionals deal with the aftermath?
  • Gloves - idk if I would take the time to put them on in such an urgent situation, but it seems irresponsible to not include.

E: hemostatic gauze might actually be much cheaper than I was imagining. I can't tell the the $15 stuff is legit.

Tourniquets make sense for a range bag or FAK for a workshop or anywhere power tools are being used. I don’t think they make much sense in a bug out bag or wilderness FAK, but you should know how to improvise one, if you’re thinking of carrying one. Cravats and tongue depressors can be used to make an effective improved tourniquet, are lighter and take up less space than a manufactured tourniquet, and have lots of other uses besides. Cravats in particular are a must for splints. Hemostatics are almost certain to sit in your bag until they expire. Chest seals will definitely sit in your bag until they expire.

Note on NPAs; they’ll protect the airway of an unconscious or shocky patient, but won’t do anything for blood or vomit. If you think your patient’s airway is at risk, the best thing is to put them in the recovery position (roll them on their side.) The medics can put in an NPA when they transport if they deem it necessary.

Include the gloves. You are much more likely to be glad you have gloves than a chest seal, and they’re cheaper. Throw some bandaids in as well.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

hypnophant posted:

Tourniquets make sense for a range bag or FAK for a workshop or anywhere power tools are being used. I don’t think they make much sense in a bug out bag or wilderness FAK, but you should know how to improvise one, if you’re thinking of carrying one. Cravats and tongue depressors can be used to make an effective improved tourniquet, are lighter and take up less space than a manufactured tourniquet, and have lots of other uses besides. Cravats in particular are a must for splints. Hemostatics are almost certain to sit in your bag until they expire. Chest seals will definitely sit in your bag until they expire.

Note on NPAs; they’ll protect the airway of an unconscious or shocky patient, but won’t do anything for blood or vomit. If you think your patient’s airway is at risk, the best thing is to put them in the recovery position (roll them on their side.) The medics can put in an NPA when they transport if they deem it necessary.

Include the gloves. You are much more likely to be glad you have gloves than a chest seal, and they’re cheaper. Throw some bandaids in as well.

https://www.bikemag.com/videos/video-cedric-gracias-brush-with-death/

This is the reason why I carry a purpose-built tourniquet when I go riding, either mountain biking or urban. If one of my buddies went down and I saw a fuckton of blood from an extremity bleed, I’m going directly to TQ, especially if their time to definitive care was relatively quick- I’d rather err on the side of letting the doctors handle tourniquet release. Also, there was an incident in DC a few months ago where a cyclist got doored and ended up with a severed femoral artery and someone fortunately had a TQ to apply. Improvised TQs have a high failure rate, and also a wooden tongue depressor is going to be a horrible windlass as those things break so easy.

In a true bug out situation, I’d still keep a TQ in my first-line gear and more in my pack because I’d be operating under the assumption that whatever I’m fleeing is localized, and that medical care is adequate wherever I’m bugging out to. If we’re about to live through Cormac McCarthy’s “The Road” then I hope my patient can come to peace with their new nickname of “Peg” in commemoration of their new hastily built prosthesis, at least assuming they survive a gunshot and amputation without antibiotics.

I

hypnophant
Oct 19, 2012
A tourniquet would not have done you any good in the linked video since the wound is too high in the groin, and you’d have been wasting time if that was the first thing you reached for. The guys who treated him don’t use one either, you can see them holding direct pressure all the way into the heli. That’s the problem with tourniquets, they work very well but most extremity wounds don’t actually bleed that much and the wounds that do bleed tend to be central (which the femoral artery absolutely is - it’s very difficult to wound it anywhere other than the groin since it’s so deep in the leg that you practically have to cut through to the bone.)

I would not recommend using a single tongue depressor for an improvised tq, no. Stack a few and they’ll hold up ok. Honestly the biggest reason to go to a manufactured tq is a durable windlass and a reliable way to secure it, but manufactured tqs are a very recent invention.

I looked at the study someone posted a while back about improvised tqs, by the way. The biggest problem was with improvised tqs made with stretchy material. If an appropriate material is used - such as a cravat - an improvised tq was 90% as a effective as the manufactured one, which I expect mostly comes down to the better windlass.

rifles
Oct 8, 2007
is this thing working

hypnophant posted:

A tourniquet would not have done you any good in the linked video since the wound is too high in the groin, and you’d have been wasting time if that was the first thing you reached for. The guys who treated him don’t use one either, you can see them holding direct pressure all the way into the heli. That’s the problem with tourniquets, they work very well but most extremity wounds don’t actually bleed that much and the wounds that do bleed tend to be central (which the femoral artery absolutely is - it’s very difficult to wound it anywhere other than the groin since it’s so deep in the leg that you practically have to cut through to the bone.)

I would not recommend using a single tongue depressor for an improvised tq, no. Stack a few and they’ll hold up ok. Honestly the biggest reason to go to a manufactured tq is a durable windlass and a reliable way to secure it, but manufactured tqs are a very recent invention.

I looked at the study someone posted a while back about improvised tqs, by the way. The biggest problem was with improvised tqs made with stretchy material. If an appropriate material is used - such as a cravat - an improvised tq was 90% as a effective as the manufactured one, which I expect mostly comes down to the better windlass.

Why would you ever plan to have to improvise a piece of kit that takes up basically no room and weighs almost nothing when its job is as important as that of a tourniquet? It's probably the one thing I would never compromise on, because the thought of having to try to improvise one to save a little weight or space in my bag with one arm while I bleed out of my other from a compound fracture or traumatic amputation doesn't sound nice.

CopperHound
Feb 14, 2012

I'm starting to understand the wilderness survival obsession. I want to throw away my computer and walk off into the woods after trying to engage with this thread.

hypnophant
Oct 19, 2012

rifles posted:

Why would you ever plan to have to improvise a piece of kit that takes up basically no room and weighs almost nothing when its job is as important as that of a tourniquet? It's probably the one thing I would never compromise on, because the thought of having to try to improvise one to save a little weight or space in my bag with one arm while I bleed out of my other from a compound fracture or traumatic amputation doesn't sound nice.

because traumatic exsanguination from an extremity is extraordinarily rare in civilian contexts. it’s only become a common cause of death in the military since the widespread introduction of body armor, and even there it was like single-digit percentages before the CAT was introduced. it’s much much rarer in the civilian world. i was an emt full time in a busy city for five years and i can count on one hand the number of times i used a tourniquet; we didn’t carry a rapid tourniquet on the ambulance and i never particularly felt like that was a priority to fix even though i had plenty of complaints about our gear

almost all tourniquets before about 2010 were “improvised.” i do think the manufactured ones are better but they’re just very low on the list of things to get since the injury they treat are so uncommon. if size and weight aren’t a concern, and your kit is well stocked otherwise, sure go ahead and add them, but i’m disagreeing with the priority that gets placed on them more than having them included at all.

Wrong Theory
Aug 27, 2005

Satellite from days of old, lead me to your access code

CopperHound posted:

I'm starting to understand the wilderness survival obsession. I want to throw away my computer and walk off into the woods after trying to engage with this thread.

Well if you go out into the wilderness: Don't pack a tourniquet and don't try to use steam power. The internet was very clear on this.

The Voice of Labor
Apr 8, 2020

CopperHound posted:

I'm starting to understand the wilderness survival obsession. I want to throw away my computer and walk off into the woods after trying to engage with this thread.

you broke up the steam engine chat to bring the thread back to first aid and now you're mad because the thread's doing first aid chat.

speaking of first aid/hygiene what are y'all planning to use for prophylactics after society collapses? it take's a grip of infrastructure to manufacture latex condoms and their shelf life is pretty short

ASAPI
Apr 20, 2007
I invented the line.

The Voice of Labor posted:

you broke up the steam engine chat to bring the thread back to first aid and now you're mad because the thread's doing first aid chat.

speaking of first aid/hygiene what are y'all planning to use for prophylactics after society collapses? it take's a grip of infrastructure to manufacture latex condoms and their shelf life is pretty short

Thank God the wife is getting older and I have radioactive sperm.

Atticus_1354
Dec 10, 2006

barkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbarkbark

The Voice of Labor posted:

speaking of first aid/hygiene what are y'all planning to use for prophylactics after society collapses? it take's a grip of infrastructure to manufacture latex condoms and their shelf life is pretty short

Having sheep is very handy. You can use the wool to make a comfortable bed on which to use the lambskin condoms you made. Or if you can't find a wasteland bride you have a sheep at hand.

pantslesswithwolves
Oct 28, 2008

Ba-dam ba-DUMMMMMM

hypnophant posted:

because traumatic exsanguination from an extremity is extraordinarily rare in civilian contexts. it’s only become a common cause of death in the military since the widespread introduction of body armor, and even there it was like single-digit percentages before the CAT was introduced. it’s much much rarer in the civilian world. i was an emt full time in a busy city for five years and i can count on one hand the number of times i used a tourniquet; we didn’t carry a rapid tourniquet on the ambulance and i never particularly felt like that was a priority to fix even though i had plenty of complaints about our gear

almost all tourniquets before about 2010 were “improvised.” i do think the manufactured ones are better but they’re just very low on the list of things to get since the injury they treat are so uncommon. if size and weight aren’t a concern, and your kit is well stocked otherwise, sure go ahead and add them, but i’m disagreeing with the priority that gets placed on them more than having them included at all.

While I get what you're saying and can't question your years of experience in EMS, CH's original premise was

CopperHound posted:

I'm thinking about stashing some major trauma (as in this person might bleed to death in the 5 minutes it takes an ambulance to get here) first aid kits in all sorts of places for quick access. What kind of stuff would you include that is helpful but won't cause more problems if it was used by a panicked incompetent person?

and in the context of this thread, I think it's entirely appropriate to have a kit whose contents are geared toward the hasty yet temporary resolution of a life-threatening bleed while pursuing evacuation out of the "hot zone" and towards definitive care, in which case the ubiquitous IFAK and its contents are well suited to the task at hand. Beyond what you mentioned about cravats, what would your kit look like?


The Voice of Labor posted:

speaking of first aid/hygiene what are y'all planning to use for prophylactics after society collapses? it take's a grip of infrastructure to manufacture latex condoms and their shelf life is pretty short

Preferably a vasectomy done 2-3 years ahead of the collapse of society and the hope that the HIV hasn't spread through my army of concubines?

Guest2553
Aug 3, 2012


90% of SA would die during The Event, and 9.999% would be lucky to end up like Channing Tatum in This Is The End. We probably have a statistically significant chance of having an Immortan Joe or Imperator Furiosa types kicking about, but I'm pretty sure it won't be me.

hypnophant
Oct 19, 2012

pantslesswithwolves posted:

While I get what you're saying and can't question your years of experience in EMS, CH's original premise was

and in the context of this thread, I think it's entirely appropriate to have a kit whose contents are geared toward the hasty yet temporary resolution of a life-threatening bleed while pursuing evacuation out of the "hot zone" and towards definitive care, in which case the ubiquitous IFAK and its contents are well suited to the task at hand. Beyond what you mentioned about cravats, what would your kit look like?

“the ubiquitous ifak” is ubiquitous in the military trauma context only. there’s no such thing as an all-purpose first aid kit; there are kits built for specific purposes, with specific injuries in mind. i keep a home first aid kit ready with basically bandaids and cold packs, and a kit for day hikes with a bunch of gauze rolls, a few gauze pads and bandaids, cloth tape, bug spray, tick tweezers, cravats and safety pins to secure them, and an ace bandage because the most threatening injury i’m likely to deal with is a rolled ankle, plus a handful of nsaids. I haven’t gone on overnight trips or got off marked trails for the last few years so i don’t bother with more than that, and i haven’t shot guns since i left the army so i don’t have a range bag. I have a couple CATs sitting in the bottom of a tote somewhere but i just don’t have any reason to carry them anywhere or keep them accessible.

as for major trauma - it really really depends on what your major potential mechanisms of injury are. for vehicle crashes including bikes, i think a way to protect the cervical spine is a pretty good idea, if you can find space in your bag for a c collar. some kind of appropriate small extraction gear like a seat belt cutter or glass breaker would be ok too. the really gnarly stuff i saw was always industrial accidents, and if you’re doing any kind of work with power tools i think a pretty well stocked first aid kit is totally justified. that’s a situation where a CAT does make sense but only after you’ve got a substantial amount of bandages, including some large pads, plus a mylar blanket or even a hospital-style wool or cotton one. my rule of thumb is that i’d want to be able to treat an evisceration before i start thinking about stocking up on bougie tourniquets. trauma shears are a must as well, for any type of trauma.

where are you envisioning this “hot zone” taking place and what sort of injuries do you anticipate during evacuation? if this is like, evacuating in advance of a natural disaster, then i’d say the most important thing you can do is preventative - be as alert as you possibly can to hazards and avoid getting injured at all, since any accident will delay your move to safety. other than that you wouldn’t need any more of a kit than you would bring on a road trip. if you think you’re going to shoot your way out or reenact the day after tomorrow, i really can’t help you.

e: what i’m trying to get across is that people don’t just start bleeding for no reason and what kind of bleeding you’re likely to see depends on what the hazards are in your surroundings. if the hazards are guns and you’re wearing body armor that protects your torso, extremity wounds are a relatively serious threat. if there are guns but you’re not wearing body armor, or the threat is from machinery or cars or, i dunno, bears or something, extremity wounds may be less of a concern and the thing you use to treat extremity wounds specifically isn’t as important as in that other context.

hypnophant fucked around with this message at 07:04 on May 24, 2022

Tyro
Nov 10, 2009
Not all of us live in densely populated areas where medics are only a few minutes away.

I have a coworker who wrecked his motorcycle on the way home from work. He was tossed into a ravine/steep ditch and his leg hit part of the bike or a tree or something on the way, almost severing it below the knee. It took 40 minutes for help to arrive and get him out. If he hadn't had an IFAK on his body, or hadn't been conscious enough to apply his TQ himself, he would have died. Edge case? Of course. But they do happen.

Khizan
Jul 30, 2013


I’ve done EMS for a long time and I think a CAT is a must have in a wilderness first aid kit.

Here’s my reasoning: I can CAT myself left handed. I’m never going to manage to control serious bleeding with direct pressure and bandaging if I’m trying to use my left hand to work on my right arm. Just ain’t gonna loving happen. An injury that wouldn’t get a tourniquet if I was working on somebody else might well get one if I’m having to work on myself because my injuries may limit my ability to perform effective first aid.

They’re small, cheap, lightweight, easy to use, and potentially lifesaving. No excuse not to have one if you have the training to use one. Sure, you’ll probably never need it, but who cares? Much better to carry one and never need it than to need one and not have it.

The Voice of Labor
Apr 8, 2020

not knowing anything about first aid, but wouldn't that also suggest that hiking/hunting/saquatchin' should be done with a partner(s)? bummer to me too, because solitude and a little goddamn quiet is a large part of the pursuit

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Godholio
Aug 28, 2002

Does a bear split in the woods near Zheleznogorsk?

CopperHound posted:

I'm starting to understand the wilderness survival obsession. I want to throw away my computer and walk off into the woods after trying to engage with this thread.

Don't walk, build a STEAM ENGINE and riiiiiiide into the woods in style.

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