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Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


This episode is best seen after House of Quark because it sets up a character important to the story, but Looking for par'Mach in All the Wrong Places has a fair bit to like; comedic in a smart way, features Worf, Star Trek take on a classic story, and features Michael Dorn's trademark bad fake-fighting moves. Armin Shimerman actually spent a day or two with a fight choreographer for the episode, and Michael Dorn presumably winged it, and it really shows when they're juxtaposed.

It also starts the most believable and tolerable Star Trek romance in the entire franchise, but that's more important for episodes after this one.

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docbeard
Jul 18, 2011

Modern worldly poster

Hell with it, in addition to the other one, I'll also risk six hours of my posting life on Civil Defense. It's standalone, shows the entire cast doing their thing, and is just generally a whole lot of fun.

The premise is that, during routine maintenance, the crew accidentally triggers an old Cardassian anti-insurgency program from the bad old days when DS9 was a Bajoran labor camp, which turns the station's defenses against them and also triggers a lot of speeches by Gul Dukat.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





I'm gonna start doing some watches this weekend. I'll report back later with my findings and rewards (or probations). This is shaping up to have a good number of episodes on the list!

Peanut President
Nov 5, 2008





Take Me Out To The Holosuite op

when my choice inevitably wins just kick the 20 bucks or whatever to RAINN under the name "Cpt. Benjamin Sisko"

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Peanut President fucked around with this message at 20:23 on Sep 25, 2020

mercenarynuker
Sep 10, 2008

i am the bruce of the willis


OP, you missed Trials and Tribble-ations on your watch list post. Unless you secretly already watched it, loved it, and bought the novelization

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





mercenarynuker posted:

OP, you missed Trials and Tribble-ations on your watch list post. Unless you secretly already watched it, loved it, and bought the novelization

Good catch, not sure why I missed it.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




by the time you get through all of those you are going to not want to watch the rest of the show because youve seen all the good stuff, lol

edit; also if you made it to s2 and you said "i liked some episodes" you have almost certainly already seen duet which is cleanly the best episode of both seasons

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Maybe. I dunno, I watched all of Enterprise based only on really liking some of the episodes.

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




yeah it was tongue in cheek. ds9 has more character development than other treks, i think, and other episodes will contextualize the good ones, so they all end up being worth it to see

mercenarynuker
Sep 10, 2008

i am the bruce of the willis


Best two characters were Quark and Garak. Sometimes Morn

Well Manicured Man
Aug 21, 2010

Well Manicured Mort

mercenarynuker posted:

Best two characters were Quark and Garak. Sometimes Morn

Morn was great, I just wished he'd shut up once in a while and give the other regulars at the bar some breathing room.

https://twitter.com/therealsobreiro/status/1007620705347948544?s=19

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

All right. I got summoned in the Tumblr-star-trek thread. So I'm going to participate, in a way.


But ultimately, this is half an explanation and half a confession.

First, explanation: Deep Space 9 is simply not a Trek that is all that fun if you approach it with a shotgun approach to episodes. It's compelling because of its broader themes, which often take time, and because of its characters, where the characterization needs gradual breathing room to develop and in some cases to change. There's no "great Dukat" episode, singular, without knowing who Dukat is and his relationship with other people. I love "Civil Defense" but it is entirely an episode that plays on character dynamics you already know, and because it provides contrast to more serious episodes. I really like "Once More Unto the Breach", but unless you understand Martok and his role in the show, it's only mildly interesting. For a character to become a great character, we need to see them in a variety of circumstances, making a variety of choices, so we get to intuitively understand them beyond what we're told about them. Much more than TNG, every DS9 character represents a set of values and to some extent an ideology. (e.g., Garak is realpolitik.)

Similarly, the themes of DS9 are usually not self-contained. The major themes are certainly not self-contained.

Now let's just segue into the confession: I do not like Deep Space 9 as intended.

I think this is where some people get tripped up. I love TOS (my favorite) and like TNG. I like them as intended. I like them the way they were, essentially, designed to be liked. I think, if I were in a conversation with the writers and the showrunners, we'd mostly be on the same page about what the episodes are doing, why they're doing it, and the message that was communicated in the process. (More so for TOS than TNG, where I do think TNG has not always aged well and/or more often, in the interests of "complexity", TNG semi-regularly told a really messed-up moral that doesn't adhere to its own purported internal logic).

I do not like Deep Space 9 "as intended". I think DS9 is a great idea, in theory. It's a deconstruction, on its face. It makes no bones about that; Sisko dang near says as much, to Picard, in the pilot. (Or when he punches Q.) And I generally agree with the things that Deep Space 9 tells you it is saying.

What I love about Deep Space 9 is that it always shows you, the opposite. Of its own theme. It has characters say and do things with a fascinating level of self-righteousness, despite often being shown to be wrong, in their own universe, without the show apparently being aware of this. It's a deconstruction that got the "moral of the story" right, and tells you what the moral is, but doesn't realize that's not the story it just showed you.

Take for example, this post from our Anonymous Zebra:

Anonymous Zebra posted:

While it's fun and all that we're talking about TNG in the DS9 thread, I figured I'd try and get things a back on track with a hot take:

"The Dominion was completely justified in starting a war against the Federation."

Wait, wait, don't walk away yet. I'm not claiming the Dominion was a good and just government, simply that most of their actions as portrayed in the show were reasonable responses to the actions of their opponents. Stick with me here, this is pretty long.

So, lets look at the series from the Dominion's point of view. Sisko discovers the wormhole and a bunch of random ships start flying through and exploring/colonizing/exploiting the things they find on the other side. Almost immediately in Season 1 we see that other space-faring civilizations live in the Gamma Quadrant, but no mention is made of the Federation checking to see if anyone already claims any of this space. Let's make the fair assumption that the Federation/Alpha quadrant are not aware of the Dominion at this point, so they're not being intentionally aggressive, but they are being a little naive in not analyzing the political landscape of their new unexplored frontier.

Now Season 2. At this point the name "Dominion" is being repeated by alien species the Federation encounters. By episode 6 of the season the loving Grand Nagus has discerned that there is a powerful political entity in the Gamma Quadrant, yet Star Fleet is still shrugging their shoulders even when a race of refugees fly through the wormhole and mention that their former overlords were conquered by "The Dominion". At this point Starfleet is sending poo poo tons of ships through the wormhole and even the Bajorans are forming permanent colonies in the Gamma Quadrant. Now, whether it's fair or not, The Dominion believes that the whole area around the Wormhole is part of their territory and at this point a bunch of aliens have been showing up and pooping in their backyards.

So now lets get the first real encounter with the Dominion. The Season 2 finale "The Jem'hadar". The Jem'hadar ambush Sisko (and Quark) on a random Gamma Quadrant planet and lock him up, meanwhile they apparently attack and wipe out the Bajoran colony, then they proceed to fly a ship through the wormhole and with mighty big-dick-energy beam onto Ops to calmly tell the Federation to "STOP COMING THROUGH THE WORMHOLE". Sisko also has a conversation with one of his jailers who also says, "YOU ARE VIOLATING DOMINION SPACE AND WE WILL NOT TOLERATE IT ANYMORE!" Ok, so they came at this like huge assholes, but The Dominion most likely wanted to scare the poo poo out of the Federation by showing overwhelming military power while delivering a very explicit message (we also learn that they always intended to let Sisko escape so that he would carry the message, and the Vorta spy, back home). So another civilization just showed up and said, "Plz stop coming into our space.", so what does Starfleet do? They send a loving Galaxy class starship right into the Gamma Quadrant. Again, the Dominion responds with overwhelming military force, but then LETS THE RUNABOUTS retreat. At this point the Dominion has not indicated that they give a poo poo about the Alpha Quadrant.

Season 3. Jesus Christ, Starfleet makes buddies with the Romulans and builds a goddamn cloaking warship for the sole purpose of flying deep into Dominion territory to find the goddamn Founders. What the gently caress guys?! So they learn that the Founder are a species that is deeply distrustful and fearful of other aliens and that The Dominion is a giant wall of violence to protect them. Ok, good thing The Founders have nothing to worry about in the Alpha Quadrant....then the Obsidian Order and the Tal Shiar decide to build a fleet, fly it into the Gamma Quadrant for the sole purpose of killing all the Founders, and a loving Starfleet admiral jokes about wishing them luck. This Season ends with that Changeling on the Defiant getting killed by Odo.


Season 4. This season involves the completely reasonable intelligence ops the Dominions carries out on the Alpha powers. They trick the Klingons into going to war against the Cardassians, and cause all that ruckus on Earth. The season ends with them further loving with Starfleet by convincing Odo that Gowron is a Changeling. These moves are aggressive, but the Alpha powers at this point have demonstrated that they are aggressive towards the Changeling, and basically every major power on modern Earth engages in this kind of spycraft without it being an act of war.

Season 5. Episode loving 2 Sisko and his team are loving around in the Gamma Quadrant when a Jem’hadar ship crashes on the planet. Is Starfleet at war with the Dominion? Nope. So why the gently caress are they on the wrong side of the wormhole when another civilization has told them that it violates their space? Okay, so Sisko lays claim to this ship and a Vorta shows up and says, “Yo, that’s ours, give it back.” and Sisko is like, “Nope, mine now!” despite the fact that it crash landed IN THE GAMMA QUADRANT, which is DOMINION SPACE! In any case, a changeling dies because of this and Sisko is all like, “Why didn’t you trust us enough to tell us about the Changeling” and the Vorta is just like “WTF is wrong with these humans.”

Season 5 is when the war starts though, so let's go into detail on exactly HOW this war started. The Dominion finally flies ships through the wormhole, to attack?! Nope! The ships turn towards Caradassia because Gul Dukat, as a duly recognized representative of the civilian government of Cardassia, has negotiated a treaty where the Dominion recognizes Cardassian territory as a protectorate, and thus it is completely legally sending ships through the (neutral space) wormhole to protect it’s new ally. And Cardassia has a completely valid reason to do this, they are being stymied by the Maquis and are getting their poo poo kicked in by the Klingons. The Dominion solves these problems for them quite readily.

So here is the thing. The Dominion keeps sending ships through the wormhole, but they never ATTACK the Federation. The Federation literally forces a war when they MINE THE loving WORMHOLE. Remember, the wormhole is supposed to be neutral space. Starfleet has sure been acting like they can fly through it whenever they want, so why can’t the Dominion? So they mine the wormhole and shots finally get fired...rest of the series follows.

TL;DR: Starfleet antagonizes and ignores the many diplomatic/military threats of the Dominion, forcing the Dominion to finally start a shooting war just to open up their supply lines back to their home territory.

Anonymous Zebra posted:

The Federation, Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians combined were no match for The Dominion. The combined powers didn't beat The Dominion, they beat a tiny fragment that was cut off from the rest by space gods living in a wormhole, and only at a huge cost. Remember, there was always an existential threat that MORE ships were just sitting on the other side of the wormhole, and the only thing stopping that was a minefield and later The Prophets.

There was no calculus The Founders needed to make. They were more technically advanced, had greater numbers, and their enemies were fragmented and easily swayed by Intel attacks. The only reason they lost (the tiny fragment of ships in the alpha, and 1 founder) was because of space gods that they couldn't have predicted would suddenly become active.


I think that post is exactly right. Now, I do think they showed a Dominion where war is inevitable. But then they have other characters act like they've correctly identified that it's inevitable (e.g. Tain), and they're punished for it. The actions of the Federation are only excusable if it was inevitable. Huh??

Over and over, DS9 tries so hard to "break down" the TNG-era Federation and writing style and approach. And time and time again, it congratulates itself for doing so, despite setting up a scenario that is obviously rigged, but rigged against their own conclusion. Their overall conclusion is, I think, almost always right, but they structure something that forces the opposite, and never seem to realize it. Not just that these things are decoupled: the exact opposite. It's not a 1:1, it's a 1:-1. It happens with the Maquis. It happens with the Dominion War. It happens with Dukat. It happens with Kira. It happens over and over and over. It's honestly baffling. I've never seen anything like it.

I've been way into DS9 for like two years and chat about it almost every day with my fellow ds9 buddies, but the well never runs dry on how vast the divide is between what the show thinks it's doing and what it's actually doing. The actual logical implications of what it's actually showing you are bizarre on closer examination.

I find DS9 incredibly compelling, incredibly engrossing, because it's this, but a show:



It knows the right answer but absolutely shoots itself in the dick for seven seasons getting there.

So do I like Deep Space 9? In a lot of ways........................ no, actually. But I LOVE to discuss deep space 9.

So anyway, "House of Quark" is pretty good.

Pick fucked around with this message at 03:39 on Sep 26, 2020

mercenarynuker
Sep 10, 2008

i am the bruce of the willis


This is bullshit, Pick. You haven't even talked about how those Vulcans are loving pricks about baseball

Edit: spoilers, Vulcans are loving pricks about baseball

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

Oh, also OP, I don't really like "gray Federation" much myself. I see the Federation as aspirational, which was best communicated to the audience in TOS. That's why TOS is my favorite (and TAS my second-favorite!) Focusing on the Federation per se too much, I think, is a mistake. I think the Federation is a set of deals which people like Admiral Cartwright can fail. But that its ideals are fundamentally good, and people are good for adhering to them.



mercenarynuker posted:

This is bullshit, Pick. You haven't even talked about how those Vulcans are loving pricks about baseball

Edit: spoilers, Vulcans are loving pricks about baseball

I actually do not like that episode, or the heist episode, at all .

I also find the baseball episode fascinating in the context of being bookended by an existential war, the exact situation where victory is not "the friends you made along the way" and "trying your best".


Pick fucked around with this message at 03:53 on Sep 26, 2020

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

oh and if you don't like "the wire" you're a homophobe. go to jail.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





I was kinda hoping you'd pick one but if your pick was in that giant quote block i'm not gonna read that cause I want to finish my list fresh. After my contest is over I'll come back and talk about that. But the way that quote started made it sound like it was going to explain like, half the show to me at once.

Trials and Tribbulations was a very interesting take on the whole time travel thing. The way they filmed it like the old style was pretty cool.

I'm also apparently a sucker for odd couple stories. Which covers both House of Quark and The Ascent.

Past tense might have earned a but the whole brutal crushing force of capitalism and police brutality kinda hit close to home right now. I've already seen Move Along Home, otherwise it might have failed totally. The visitor was an interesting story but in the end everything was undone.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Well Manicured Man posted:

Morn was great, I just wished he'd shut up once in a while and give the other regulars at the bar some breathing room.

https://twitter.com/therealsobreiro/status/1007620705347948544?s=19

lmao, would unironically wear that shirt

Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




CainFortea posted:

I was kinda hoping you'd pick one but if your pick was in that giant quote block i'm not gonna read that cause I want to finish my list fresh. After my contest is over I'll come back and talk about that. But the way that quote started made it sound like it was going to explain like, half the show to me at once.

Trials and Tribbulations was a very interesting take on the whole time travel thing. The way they filmed it like the old style was pretty cool.

I'm also apparently a sucker for odd couple stories. Which covers both House of Quark and The Ascent.

Past tense might have earned a but the whole brutal crushing force of capitalism and police brutality kinda hit close to home right now. I've already seen Move Along Home, otherwise it might have failed totally. The visitor was an interesting story but in the end everything was undone.

well no, capt sisko still has the memories of the entire ordeal, which is why hes so explicitly emotional at the end, cause hes the only one who remembers exactly what jake did

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

CainFortea posted:

Past tense might have earned a but the whole brutal crushing force of capitalism and police brutality kinda hit close to home right now.

I'm sorry. I like those episodes because my favorite sci-fi takes swings at current issues. I will say that Past Tense does end on a positive note because the Bell Riots are one of the events that help bring Humanity out of the poo poo and into the stars (as well as lets Avery Brooks show off his acting chops). The other events? Well, one involved a drunk, warp speed, rock and roll, and some very confused Vulcans.

Far Beyond the Stars is another great episode IMHO because it's another that is very blatant and brutally hammers home how awful and ridiculous racism is. It's another weird vision/time travel episode that takes place in 1950s Earth. It also is another episode that lets Avery Brooks act, and man...his soliloquy as an African American author defending the idea that a black man in the future could and should be able to command a space station is one of my favorite Trek moments. It's hammy, it's heartfelt, and it's Star Trek. It's Sisko's "There are four lights!" moment.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Bogus Adventure posted:

I'm sorry. I like those episodes because my favorite sci-fi takes swings at current issues. I will say that Past Tense does end on a positive note because the Bell Riots are one of the events that help bring Humanity out of the poo poo and into the stars (as well as lets Avery Brooks show off his acting chops). The other events? Well, one involved a drunk, warp speed, rock and roll, and some very confused Vulcans.

Far Beyond the Stars is another great episode IMHO because it's another that is very blatant and brutally hammers home how awful and ridiculous racism is. It's another weird vision/time travel episode that takes place in 1950s Earth. It also is another episode that lets Avery Brooks act, and man...his soliloquy as an African American author defending the idea that a black man in the future could and should be able to command a space station is one of my favorite Trek moments. It's hammy, it's heartfelt, and it's Star Trek. It's Sisko's "There are four lights!" moment.

It's also basically made out of tributes to classic science fiction, with the overall plot being very similar to the story surrounding EC Comics' Judgement Day, and the other magazine writers are clear analogues to various other science fiction writers. (Mostly just remember O'Brien is supposed to be Isaac Asimov)

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

Ghost Leviathan posted:

It's also basically made out of tributes to classic science fiction, with the overall plot being very similar to the story surrounding EC Comics' Judgement Day, and the other magazine writers are clear analogues to various other science fiction writers. (Mostly just remember O'Brien is supposed to be Isaac Asimov)

It's a beautiful episode, and my kind of Star Trek.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





Verviticus posted:

well no, capt sisko still has the memories of the entire ordeal, which is why hes so explicitly emotional at the end, cause hes the only one who remembers exactly what jake did

It seemed to me that he didn't because when Jake asked him how he knew to dodge he looked kinda baffled and said "I don't know"


Don't feel sorry! Like, I still watched the whole thing. It just didn't feel great to watch. I did rather enjoy Kira and O'Brian time jumping.

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Is funny that despite being established as a stone cold resistance fighter since childhood and outright femme fatale when necessary, Kira can't blend in as a human to save her life.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

CainFortea posted:

Don't feel sorry! Like, I still watched the whole thing. It just didn't feel great to watch. I did rather enjoy Kira and O'Brian time jumping.

mercenarynuker
Sep 10, 2008

i am the bruce of the willis


I mean, there's also all the episodes where Miles O'Brien gets sadistically tortured. Those are funny, in the sense that the writers are needlessly punishing this dude for no discernible reason

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





By the by, I guess I wasn't clear.

mercenarynuker
FunkyAl
mysterious frankie

Ya'all get to pick someone who submitted an episode on the watch list for a 6er.

CainFortea fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Sep 26, 2020

mercenarynuker
Sep 10, 2008

i am the bruce of the willis


Ghost Leviathan, for the crime of making me remember Paradise, the only episode to just make me mad every time I think of it, I sentence you to a sixer

Snugglecakes
Dec 29, 2008





Do you like Star Trek courtroom dramas?
How about Worf being accused doing something bad?
And how about Ron Canada playing Klingon Lawyer?

Then try Rules of Engagement Season 4, Episode 18

FunkyAl
Mar 28, 2010

Your vitals soar.


I choose Pick, for not recommending an episode

E: Just saw the recommend for "house of quark," decision remains the same but is now arbitrary

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





FunkyAl posted:

I choose Pick, for not recommending an episode

Unfortunately it seems you did not pay attention to the...ahem....Rules of Engagement...of this competition. You have to.......Pick........someone from the actual watch list on the OP. Or you can wait and see if Pick actually recommends and episode and gets on the list.

Pick
Jul 19, 2009



Nap Ghost

I did, I did recommend House of Quark.

It is actually internally thematically coherent, fun, and has quite a bit of characterization even in 47 minutes.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

mercenarynuker
Sep 10, 2008

i am the bruce of the willis


FunkyAl posted:

I choose Pick, for not recommending an episode

E: Just saw the recommend for "house of quark," decision remains the same but is now arbitrary

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


CainFortea posted:

Unfortunately it seems you did not pay attention to the...ahem....Rules of Engagement...of this competition. You have to.......Pick........someone from the actual watch list on the OP. Or you can wait and see if Pick actually recommends and episode and gets on the list.

P sure I was the first one to recommend House of Quark.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004





mysterious frankie posted:

P sure I was the first one to recommend House of Quark.

You are absolutely correct! Thank you for pointing that out. Recommendations were coming in pretty wild and wooley at that time and I messed that all up. I'll fix the OP.

Pick posted:

I did, I did recommend House of Quark.

It is actually internally thematically coherent, fun, and has quite a bit of characterization even in 47 minutes.

Sounds like Pick is onboard so I'll go ahead and do it this time. Besides, it's Pick. Pretty sure you spend more time probed than unprobed.

Elmnt80
Dec 30, 2012

OH NOOOO!





AlternateNu posted:

Edit: I would also highly recommend season 6, episode 19, In the Pale Moonlight, but not for this request because it requires knowledge of the series up to that point and hits the "morally gray" side of the Federation that OP dislikes. But Avery knocks it out of the park.

This episode really is like the top tier DS9. And while its morally grey, it definitely not moustache twirling evil. Its Sisko realizing what morals he's willing to sacrifice to end the war. He doesn't just go out full bad guy, but you can see him constantly falling down the sunk cost fallacy path over the whole episode as he wrestles with his decisions. Even the start of the episode has him trying to decide if what he did was worth it. It also has some top tier garrack in it. Though you definitely need some dominion war episodes beforehand to really appreciate it.

Grand Fromage
Jan 30, 2006

L-l-look at you bar-bartender, a-a pa-pathetic creature of meat and bone, un-underestimating my l-l-liver's ability to metab-meTABolize t-toxins. How can you p-poison a perfect, immortal alcohOLIC?




I agree with the common wisdom that In the Pale Moonlight is the best episode of all of Star Trek but like most of DS9's best, you have to have watched the entire show to that point to get it. Watching it in isolation wouldn't work.

E: If you haven't watched it before, I will suggest season 2 episode 22, The Wire. If you have already seen that one, then let's go to the double length season 4, episode 1/2, The Way of the Warrior.

Grand Fromage fucked around with this message at 03:13 on Sep 27, 2020

mysterious frankie
Jan 11, 2009

This displeases Dev- ..van. Shut up.


CainFortea posted:

You are absolutely correct! Thank you for pointing that out. Recommendations were coming in pretty wild and wooley at that time and I messed that all up. I'll fix the OP.

Aw yeah! Now I’m gonna get what I deserv...

USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017

Exploration is ill-advised




Well, I'm goin right back in that box.

(Don't mean to cry persecution, I just couldn't resist the opportunity to make the reference)

Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 15:13 on Sep 27, 2020

mercenarynuker
Sep 10, 2008

i am the bruce of the willis


Ghost Leviathan posted:

Well, I'm goin right back in that box.

(Don't mean to cry persecution, I just couldn't resist the opportunity to make the reference)


Props, it was a good reference and got a laff out of me

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Verviticus
Mar 13, 2006

Security? Please escort the fan in section 106, row 16, seat 1 out of the building right now and bar him from coming here again!




CainFortea posted:

It seemed to me that he didn't because when Jake asked him how he knew to dodge he looked kinda baffled and said "I don't know"


Don't feel sorry! Like, I still watched the whole thing. It just didn't feel great to watch. I did rather enjoy Kira and O'Brian time jumping.

i had to load it up cause i forgot exactly what he said but it was "i guess we were just lucky this time" which is probably the right response instead of "i just watched you commit suicide after spending 40 years of your life alone researching how to save me and in the process abandoning your wife and career and obliterating your reality" but his emotional near-breakdown wouldnt make sense if he didnt know what happened

Elmnt80 posted:

This episode really is like the top tier DS9. And while its morally grey, it definitely not moustache twirling evil. Its Sisko realizing what morals he's willing to sacrifice to end the war. He doesn't just go out full bad guy, but you can see him constantly falling down the sunk cost fallacy path over the whole episode as he wrestles with his decisions. Even the start of the episode has him trying to decide if what he did was worth it. It also has some top tier garrack in it. Though you definitely need some dominion war episodes beforehand to really appreciate it.

while i think the visitor is the best episode of star trek they've made i think in the pale moonlight is the best ds9 episode and the most enjoyment ive ever gotten out of an episode of star trek. if you've seen every episode of ds9 and you know just how much the war is affecting everyone on the station and how much episodes like the ship and sacrifice of angels and even paradise lost have affected sisko its a really good culmination of the themes within

Verviticus fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Sep 28, 2020

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